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GumboBC 04-01-2005 12:20 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
We love to watch the ball, and so we do. And most of the talk, then, winds up being about the guys who catch it, run with it, and (most importantly) throw it.

Indeed, talk of the Saints' offense always centers around Joe Horn, Deuce McAllister, Donte' Stallworth, and Aaron Brooks.


But write this down - the single most important factor in the Saints offense will be the five guys who never touch the ball.

An offensive line that struggled for long stretches last season has added a new part - RT Jermane Mayberry. And the coaches are really hoping for a resurgence from LT Wayne Gandy, who really struggled much of the time. Some of Gandys struggles were due to injury, however.

It always comes down to the guys up front. If they don't get the job done, you can't get the ball to skill guys.

The offensive line needs to improve on last season, that much is a given. Without that, whether McAllister can hold up, whether Horn has another probowl season and whether Brooks is poised to jump to the elite level are questions that won't matter so much.

Either the Saints' offensive line plays much better in '05, or the offense struggles. Period. So watch the ball - if you dare - but know that if the guys who run it, catch it and throw it don't have the time and the room to operate, this whole thing gets a lot harder.

In any game, at any level, the story is told by the offensive and defensive lines. That's football. That's the way it works.

WhoDat 04-01-2005 12:35 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Think we could go one day without a prophecy or editorial? LOL. ;)

GumboBC 04-01-2005 12:46 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Think we could go one day without a prophecy or editorial? LOL. ;)
Well, it\'s either that or you can hear my \"mock\" draft? ;)

spkb25 04-01-2005 07:18 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
gumbo i have been saying that for a while now

mutineer10 04-01-2005 07:53 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

But write this down - the single most important factor in the Saints offense will be the five guys who never touch the ball.
Not so fast ... Gandy may snatch a few more laterals this season, too! :P

saintz08 04-01-2005 08:28 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

But write this down - the single most important factor in the Saints offense will be the five guys who never touch the ball.
So this is who ????

2 Guards
2 Tackles
1 Tight End

Center touches the ball more then the QB ..... ;)

This should really fuel the Jake debate , considering he sat behind one of the top 5 worst offensive lines last year and still managed to come up with an 87.3 rating , better than Brooks at 79.5 .

[Edited on 2/4/2005 by saintz08]

WhoDat 04-01-2005 08:52 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Hhhmmm. That\'s interesting 08. Who was his RB? Oh yeah, they all go thurt and their starting RB was really a FB. And MM had, what, 5 more yards than Horn. Who was their sencond WR? I don\'t even know. That is interesting. LOL.

JKool 04-01-2005 08:57 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
It isn\'t that interesting, is it?

I agree that the play of our line, which was inconsistent (at best) is very important to our improvement. However, it seems to me the inconsistent play at RB, TE, and QB are equally troubling.

While every play begins in the trenches, it is easy to see how these other areas can benefit from improved line play. However, it isn\'t clear to me that the inconsistent play at those other positions is merely the result of inconsistency of the line play. Thus, improvement in all areas may well be required.

What kind of analysis are you looking for here. If the line plays better, we will play better as a team. Is there anyone who disagrees with that?

saintz08 04-01-2005 10:22 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Hhhmmm. That\'s interesting 08.
Nah

But here is the interesting part ...... ;)

Carolina had no 1000 yard receivers in both 2001 and 2002 this despite both Smith and Moose on the roster .

Jake Delhomme steps in under center in 2003 and suddenly the 1000 yard receiver reappears ....... :o .... And like a magic rabbit out of a hat , another one in 2004 .... :o

Now despite being behind an inferior front line to the one Brooks was behind , Jake managed to put up a better rating than Brooks .....

Now here comes the interesting part ......

Hassteroid thought it was better to play an injured Brooks in the play off race then a healthy Delhomme ....


GumboBC 04-02-2005 11:10 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

It isn\'t that interesting, is it?

I agree that the play of our line, which was inconsistent (at best) is very important to our improvement. However, it seems to me the inconsistent play at RB, TE, and QB are equally troubling.

While every play begins in the trenches, it is easy to see how these other areas can benefit from improved line play. However, it isn\'t clear to me that the inconsistent play at those other positions is merely the result of inconsistency of the line play. Thus, improvement in all areas may well be required.

What kind of analysis are you looking for here. If the line plays better, we will play better as a team. Is there anyone who disagrees with that?
JKool --

My point is a very simple one:

Point -- If our offensive line doesn\'t play better it won\'t matter so much what the \"skill\" players do.

Sure, Brooks, Decue, and just about every one else needs to play better, but even if all of them step up and they are still playing behind a terrible offensive line then I think it won\'t really make much difference.


[Edited on 2/4/2005 by GumboBC]

lynwood 04-02-2005 11:49 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
I would like to see the line play better just so when can see what the skill players can do.

Will AB make good decisions and accurate passes and not fumble?
Will Duece be able to break over 20 yards runs more often and not fumble?
Will the receivers be able to catch the ball on the run and get some decent yards after the catch?

A better offensive line might expose some players true potential for better or worse, and i\'m looking forward to seeing who\'s overrated and who\'s not.

JKool 04-02-2005 12:17 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Point -- If our offensive line doesn\'t play better it won\'t matter so much what the \"skill\" players do.
I certainly agree with you Gumbo.

That, however, can\'t be a perfectly general principle though. Surely there have been teams and even individual players who have succeeded in light of a horrendous line.

GumboBC 04-02-2005 12:19 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Quote:

Point -- If our offensive line doesn\'t play better it won\'t matter so much what the \"skill\" players do.
I certainly agree with you Gumbo.

That, however, can\'t be a perfectly general principle though. Surely there have been teams and even individual players who have succeeded in light of a horrendous line.
There are always exceptions to the rules, JKool. Always.

But, like I said:

Write this down. If the offensive line struggles like last year, this thing just got a lot tougher on the offense.

JKool 04-02-2005 12:42 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
I\'m with ya.

saintz08 04-02-2005 02:35 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

My point is a very simple one:

Point -- If our offensive line doesn\'t play better it won\'t matter so much what the \"skill\" players do.
Real simple point Gumbo BC........ ;)

So let\'s see Gumbo

Quote:

The offensive line needs to improve on last season, that much is a given. Without that, whether McAllister can hold up, whether Horn has another probowl season and whether Brooks is poised to jump to the elite level are questions that won\'t matter so much.
Wow , they sound like a dismal unit we had here .

Let\'s see about where they ranked ....... ;)


1.Kansas City - The streak of 32 consecutive starts with the same unit is broken with the departure of John Tait, but FA John Welbourne should be a nice replacement. You will have a difficult time finding a better left side than LT Willie Roaf and LG Will Shields. Holmes will have plenty of holes to find the endzone once again.



2.Baltimore - Bookend tackles Jonathan Ogden and Orlando Brown anchor an offensive line that opened monster holes for Jamal Lewis in 2003. Pass blocking was an issue last season but look for improvement as all the starters return and QB Boller gets more comfortable in the offense.



3. Seattle - All signs point to a successful season in Seattle and the OL is no exception. All 5 starters return, which includes All Pro LT Walter Jones and All Pro LG Steve Hutchinson.



4.New England - The loss of G Damien Woody will definitely hurt the experience of the line but this is a young and talented group who gained valuable experience during their Super Bowl run. The tackle position is a concern as LT Tom Ashworth nurses a bad back during camp and RT Matt Light comes off an emergency appendectomy in June. The lack of depth could be a concern.



5.Tennessee - The emergence of RB Chris Brown and his explosiveness will go a long way to help this line. The entire line returns from last season anchored by 12-year vet Brad Hopkins. The pass protection was very good last year giving up only 25 sacks on the season, which will be vital once again to keep McNair healthy.



6.Green Bay - This is a very talented unit who could easily be the best in the league depending on how soon C Mike Flanagan and LG Mike Wahle return from their respective injuries. LT Chad Clifton looks to be dominant once again.



7.New Orleans - The Saints have one of the deeper lines in the league and the starters provided a nice mix of youth and veteran experience. C LeCharles Bentley who made the Pro Bowl at guard last season moves to center to replace veteran Jerry Fontenot who is still with the team and should provide dependable backup experience. LT Wayne Gandy and RT Victor Riley are both very good run and pass blockers.



8.Pittsburgh - To say the Steeler running game was non-existent last season would be an understatement; injuries along the offensive front were a major part of that. If this group can stay healthy the talent is there to be a very productive unit. All Pro G Alan Faneca had a very good season despite playing nearly every position and some point during the 2003 season. LT Marvel Smith is one of the best when he’s healthy.



9.Indianapolis - The OL was definitely a strength of this team last season ranking 5th in run blocking and 2nd in pass protection. If Tarik Glenn can keep his weight in check this will be a very tough unit.



10.Denver - If the preseason is any indication of how this unit is going to perform, then it could be a long season in Denver. LT Matt Lepsis must adjust and adjust quickly from the RT spot he played last season. So far the “system� has been tested; keep an eye on how this plays out before you draft whoever ends up getting the nod at RB.



11.Tampa Bay - C John Wade is the only returning started, but the other players the organization has brought in have performed well on their previous teams. RT Todd Steussie from Carolina and LT Derrick Deese from San Francisco are very talented. If this unit can gel quickly the Bucs offense will be in for a productive season.



12.Philadelphia - Run blocking has been the strength of this unit, where they ranked in the top 5 last season; unfortunately pass blocking has been a disaster giving up 42 sacks on the season. Rookie Shawn Andrews looks to be the real deal. Tackles Tra Thomas and John Runyan may have lost a step and will need to provide better protection if the Eagles have any shot at trying to break their 3 yr NFC championship disappointment.



13.Jacksonville - FA pickups G Mike Compton and T Ephraim Salaam will bolster an already good line that allowed only 27 sacks last season. Second year Mike Pearson will compete for a spot but needs to be more aggressive.



14.New York Jets - All Pro C Kevin Mawae leads this young but talented group. Newly acquired Pete Kendall will give this team even more depth and flexibility. If Curtis Martin can stay healthy and Chad Pennington builds off his end of the season momentum the Jets will likely be a playoff contender.



15.St. Louis - All indications point to a dismal year for the Rams line, starting C Dave Wuhlabaugh has just been released, All Pro T Orlando Pace is in a contract dispute and T Kyle Turley is nursing a bad back. But for some reason there doesn’t seem to be much cause for concern, Pace should be in soon, G Adam Timmerman is a solid veteran who is keeping this unit together and backups Grant Williams and Scott Tercero are getting valuable reps.



16.Minnesota - This unit was a contrast in style last season ranking as the #3 unit in rushing and the 30th in pass protection giving up 43 sacks. All the starters return and LT Bryant McKinnie should emerge as one of the top tackles in the league.


17.Detroit - In contrast to their divisional counterparts, the Vikings, this unit excelled at pass protection allowing Harrington to hit the turf only 14 times. Their run blocking was another story ranking dead last. RT Stockar McDougle has potential but needs to be consistent. FA Damien Woody from NE was a nice pick up in the off-season.



18.Houston - This franchise has made all the right moves toward improving statistically one of the worst lines in the NFL last season. OL Coach Joe Pendry is installing a zone blocking scheme to help protect Carr and provide more options for Davis. Second year pro Seth Wand will get the call at LT, while Chester Pitts moves to LG, FA Todd Wade will anchor the right side at T along with Zach Weigert at RG to provide a very large and mobile right side.



19.Cinncinati - RT Willie Anderson is a very good T who made the Pro Bowl in 2003, and is the soul of this unit. LT Levi Jones has a lot of potential if he can stay healthy. C Rich Braham is an experienced vet, but the lack of depth can hurt if any of the starters go down.



20.Miami - The line has potential but the way things are going for the Dolphins that’s all it will be. They are hoping that rookie Vernon Carey their first round pick will come in and make an immediate impact. Second year LT Wade Smith gained valuable experience as a rookie and will need to continue his solid play.



21.Dallas - T Flozell Adams is very good and the same can be said for G Larry Allen who is having a good camp despite all the talk that his days in Dallas were over. Aside from these two the jury is still out.



22.Atlanta - Despite not having Michael Vick or basically anything that resembled a passing game in 2003, the offensive line paved the way to 17 rushing TDs, 7th best in the league. LT Bob Whitfield is getting old and the new offensive season favors smaller, more agile lineman.



23.Oakland - It wasn’t hard to figure out what position the Raiders wanted to improve in this year’s draft. They spent the #2 pick overall on one of the best lineman to come out of college in years in Robert Gallery and spent a second round pick on C Jake Grove. Gallery will make an immediate impact and Grove has been battling for a starting spot. G Ron Stone comes over from San Francisco to provide some veteran leadership.



24.San Francisco - This could be a very low ranking for a unit that has all the potential to overachieve. Losses of G Ron Stone and LT Derrick Deese will hurt, and the health of C Jeremy Newberry is questionable coming off a knee injury. Second year T Kwame Harris needs to play well and help this unit come together.



25.Washington - It seemed like things were going to well in Washington, the legend was back on the sidelines and all the pieces were in place for another trip to the playoffs, then reality kicked in, they actually started playing games. The loss of RT Jon Jansen is huge, and LT Chris Samuels hasn’t played well since his rookie year. Luck for Skins fans Coach Gibbs is back in town b/c it’s going to take a legend to correct this ship.



26.Cleveland - When LT Ross Verba went down with an injury last season it seemed the rest of the line went with him. So far the Browns are inconsistent and still looking to solidify the guard positions. Verba and RT Ryan Tucker have played well so far and C Jeff Faine is improving.



27.Chicago - The loss of G Rex Tucker who is expected to be out for 10 weeks is a big blow to this unit but not completely devastating. They signed G Ruben Brown this off-season and will be able to move Wayne Gandy to G, which may be a better fit for him than tackle. T John Tait was also a big acquisition who knows how to win.



28.New York Giants - The line is rebuilt from last season and for good reason. LT Luke Petitgout is the only starter returning from last season. C Shaun O’Hara and LG Barry Stokes came over from Cleveland; Stokes is nursing an injury but should be fine for the start of the season. If Manning does win the job a new line and rookie QB are not the makings of a championship team.



29.Buffalo - The Bills have yet to find a cohesive unit to put on the field this pre-season. Injuries and overall poor performance have been the only constant. T Mike Williams is expected back this week and should help this line improve before the regular season.



30.Carolina - The surprising run to the Super Bowl is over and it’s time to regroup for a position that last season was a strength of their team. Three starters are gone from 2003 and injuries have left major question marks. LT Jordan Gross is in a new position and new RT Matt Willig a 12 year vet suddenly is thrust into the starting lineup. LG Travis Claridge a fierce run blocker comes over from Atlanta and should provide some much needed intensity to this unit.



31.San Diego - If Tomlinson is going to repeat is heroics of last season the offensive line will have little to do with it. G Jason Ball is the only returning starter from a season ago and he is coming off an injury. FA acquisitions G Moke Goff and T Ruben Oben provide experience but are not devastating run blockers.



32.Arizona - Coach Green definitely shakes things up and perhaps in the future it will be better but not this season. Rookie C Alex Stepanovich steps in for departed Pete Kendall and is understandably struggling. Leonard Davis has been moved to T from G and T L.J. Shelton is on the bench. If any of the WRs are healthy enough to play McCown may not have enough time to get them the ball.

Now by the way I have taken the liberty to Bold all the teams who had worse lines then the Saints and made the play offs ..... ;)

Keep dancin ..... :pinkele:

GumboBC 04-02-2005 03:06 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
saintz08 --

Yeah, well ... If we had the 7th best offensive line in the NFL, then, I\'ll eat my hat.

That was just someone\'s prediction before the start of the 2004 season. Nice try anyway, though.

Folks might want to make light of our offensive line, but it\'s really no joking matter. They were awful.

Regardless of what some might think, we do not run a West Coast offense where the QB is required to get rid of the ball real quickly.

Instead, we are a play action passing team. And our receivers run deeper patterns that require some time to throw the ball.

Other offenses are better equiped to get the ball off quicker due to their offensive scheme. The receivers run different patterns and it\'s just the way it\'s designed.

Towards the end of the season Haslett and co. did put our offensive line in a better position to be successful. Especially the last game in Carolina. Haz went max protect and it really helped. IMO, he should have done that much earlier in the season. It was obvious the offensive line needed help.

I\'m optimistic that Mayberry will help. I think Deuce being healthy will help the offensive line out also. When an offense can run the opposing defense can\'t \"key\" on rushing the QB.

And I believe Gandy will bounce back this season since he\'ll be healthy again.




saintz08 04-02-2005 07:20 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 


Quote:

That was just someone\'s prediction before the start of the 2004 season. Nice try anyway, though.
Pretty popular consensus ....Here is another one for you ....

:pinkele:


Green Bay Packers
Continuity means a lot and this group is loaded with experience and talent. The Packers return all five starters from a unit that helped the team rank among the league\'s top rushing offenses in 2003. Even with just an average line, Favre is among the toughest QBs in the league to sack, so keep this in mind thru the season and downgrade your team defense or IDPs (DL) when matched up against this group.
Grade: A

Baltimore Ravens
A 2,000 yard season for Jamal Lewis is a great barometer of the Ravens run blocking prowess. The Ravens re-signed Orlando Brown during the off-season meaning all five starters return to provide stability and comfort for the running game and 2nd year QB Kyle Boller.
Grade: A

Kansas City Chiefs
The loss of tackle John Tait hurts the right side of the line causing this elite unit to slip back to the pack a little, but don\'t feel sorry for this group. The Chiefs have options with Chris Bober and John Welbourn, who is expected to replace Tait. Overall, they return all of the remaining four starters and their depth is solid as well.
Grade: A

Denver Broncos
Losing legendary coach Alex Gibbs to Atlanta hurts, but the Broncos will be fine with \'03 top pick George Foster replacing Ephraim Salaam at right tackle and the rest of starting unit returning intact. For anyone who witnessed Quentin Griffin\'s pre-season showing, there is little doubt about it - the Broncos line is the #1 reason why they annually are among the league\'s most prolific offenses, especially on the ground.
Grade: A-

Minnesota Vikings
What the Vikings lack in agility they make up for with girth and continuity. Bryant McKinnie is a rising star and center Matt Birk is an established Pro Bowler. The Vikings return all five starters and will once again remain a key ingredient for one of the league\'s most prolific offenses.
Grade: A-

Seattle Seahawks
Continuity is the key ingredient for grading offensive lines and the Hawks return all five starters assuming they mend fences with their annual holdout, Walter Jones, who continues to seek a long-term contract while carrying the franchise tag moniker. Guard Steve Hutchinson is a budding Pro Bowler for years to come. With a healthy Jones in fold this unit has the potential to be among the elite offensive lines in the league.
Grade: B+

Indianapolis Colts
Tarik Glenn headlines this group of unsung heros who perennially rank among the league\'s best in sacks allowed. This line has been together for a few years now, and despite losing Adam Meadows via free agency, they remain among the league\'s top ranked units.
Grade: B+

New Orleans Saints
LeCharles Bentley is a blossoming All-Pro as he slides inside to replace veteran holdover Jerry Fontenot at center. Victor Riley and Wayne Gandy provide a formidable pair of bookend tackles who pass protect well and provide a good basis for the running game. With all five starters returning and good depth this group is rock solid.
Grade: B+


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Better than Chuck

Philadelphia Eagles
1st round pick Shawn Andrews joins a solid pair of tackles to help offset the loss of guard John Welbourn. Artis Hicks and Jermane Mayberry will try to fill Welbourn\'s shoes. Overall the line is solid, not but not outstanding. Runyan gets dominated by strong pass rushers like Strahan at times, but so do most tackles.
Grade: B

Carolina Panthers
Adam Meadows was signed to replace Todd Steussie at right tackle, and then retired a couple weeks ago. Jordan Gross is the most talented player and the anchor for the line, he\'s making the switch to left tackle. Meanwhile Jeno James bolted to Miami and Kevin Donnalley retired leaving the line thin all of a sudden considering Todd Steussie is also gone. Matt Willig takes over at RT backed up by Melvin Tutten. The interior consisting of RG Tutan Reyes, C Jeff Mitchell and LG Doug Brzezinski is solid and the depth is decent, but this much turnover suggests the Panthers line will take time to come together, but it remains solid on paper.
Grade: B

Cincinnati Bengals
The Bengals have a strong pair of tackles in LT Levi Jones and RT Willie Anderson and 2nd year guard Eric Steinbach has Pro Bowl potential. Stacy Andrews was drafted in the 4th round to be the swing tackle and Bobbie Williams slides into Victor Leyva\'s spot at RG. The other four starting spots remain unchanged. Depth could be a challenge if injuries strike, but this group is solid in protection and quickl becoming a power when it comes to the ground game. This group is on the rise.
Grade: B

New England Patriots
Damien Woody\'s loss is over-rated considering Dan Koppen started at center during the team\'s run to their 2nd Super Bowl title. There\'s no stars amongst this group, but like other positions on this team the coaching staff seems to get the most from the talent at hand.
Grade: B

Jacksonville Jaguars
RT Maurice Williams is a pillar of strength as are Chris Naeole and Manuwai. LT Mike Pearson must improve before this group realizes it\'s full potential. Free agents Ephraim Salaam and Mike Compton bring much needed competition and depth. All five starters return, which is a big plus and this ranking could prove to be very conservative. The Jaguars have re-tooled at the skill positions quite well and this offense could really get rolling if this unit performs up to it\'s potential.
Grade: B-

Tennessee Titans
Brad Hopkins and Fred Miller appeared to be potential cap victims, but both players return to man the tackles. The Titans benefit from continuity and veteran leadership with five returning starters, but their depth will be challenged and their play slipped slightly last season. They need the infusion of youth and talent to make an impact soon.
Grade: B-

NY Jets
The Jets were fortunate to add veteran LG Pete Kendall just before training camp. The tackles consist of Jason Fabini and Kareem McKenzie, who are both solid and experienced. Center Kevin Mawae is one of the league\'s best. There\'s potential here don\'t be fooled, they looked weaker earlier in the off-season but grabbing Kendall late in the game was a nice coop, even though they paid dearly for him. Overall this group was middle of the pack, but now could emerge during the season as a strong group and it wouldn\'t surprise me if Curtis Martin and/or Lamont Jordan have strong seasons. Brandon Moore and Brent Smith are the potential weak link at right guard.
Grade: B-

Chicago Bears
The right side of the line got an overhaul adding Pro Bowler John Tait and veteran guard Reuben Brown and center Olin Kruetz is one of the better technicians in the league. It may take a little while before this line comes together, but the Bears offensive production should improve significantly this season as Rex Grossman becomes familiar with the offense. Losing Rex Tucker in the pre-season for 10 weeks hurts, but Reuben Brown is moving over to fill the gap as Mike Gandy was holding him off for the starting RG job anyway. Even Aaron Gibson has looked good during the off-season.
Grade: B-

Detroit Lions
This group played pretty well for the most part in 2003 but expect more growth and improvement this year with the addition of free agent Damien Woody at RG. Stockar McDougle and Jeff Backus give the Lions a solid tackle combo, but depth at guard remains a concern where David Loverne remains the starter at left guard. Solomon Page has been a bust so far. Joey Harrington is the least sacked QB in the league, amazingly, but it\'s not all due to the line\'s excellent pass protection. Harrington must mature this year and hold the ball longer and work the deeper routes before this offense blossoms. The Lion\'s offensive success will be directly proportional to their success up front, but the talent is there.
Grade: B-

St. Louis Rams
Orlando Pace and Kyle Turley form arguably the league\'s top tackle combo, when healthy and signed! But that hasn\'t happened yet. The Rams desperately need to sign Pace long-term. McCollum, Wohlabaugh and Timmerman formed a strong veteran trio inside, but Wohlabaugh was cut in training camp leaving the interior more questionable. Kyle Turley is out for another month or two and Orlando Pace remains unsigned with the franchise tag again slapped on him. Combined, these are some serious RED FLAGS for the Rams offense to be sure. It might take a while for the Greatest Show on Turf to get off the ground this year leaving Bulger more vulnerable as well. Then again, all COULD be well and good once Pace signs and IF Turley\'s back allows him to get back in the lineup. These two players are the key. No Turley is a bad situation for the Rams especially Marshall Faulk and Marc Bulger.
Grade: C+


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Middle of the Pack

Oakland Raiders
Al Davis swung for the fences this offseason and connected by drafting LT Robert Gallery and C Jake Grove in the draft, the best players at their positions, and signing former Pro Bowl veteran RG Ron Stone. Depth is improved and if the line comes together quickly Norv Turner\'s offense could get off to a nice start. Gallery dislocated his elbow and will miss some time, but they\'ll be fine. Both Gallery and Grove will probably start immediately with 2nd year right tackle Langston Walker and veteran Barry Sims at left guard.
Grade: C

Arizona Cardinals
The Cards big, beefy line might lack the quickness and athleticism needed to really implement coach Denny Green\'s offense. Green certainly got their attention early cutting Pete Kendall before training camp. Left tackle Leonard Davis has unlimited potential, but must now play up to it. L.J. Shelton now backs him up. Rookie Alex Stepanovich will start at center with veteran Frank Garcia backing him up. The depth is good across the board. As a whole, everyone just needs to live up to their potential because talent is not the problem here. Guard could be a problem though with the unexpected exodus of Kendall.
Grade: C

Washington Redskins
The return of Joe Gibbs and OL coach Joe Bugel should work wonders here, but make no mistake about it - losing Jon Jansen is a hard blow to the gut for this unit. Under Spurrier it seemed as though this group chronically underachieved as the term \"max protect\" seemed to be missing from the playbook. Bugel should deliver much better results even without Jon Jansen. Chris Samuels, Randy Thomas and Derrick Dockery will lead the way. Kenyatta Jones and Darryl Terrell will try to plug the gaping hole at right tackle. Regardless, Mark Brunell should be safer behind this line than he was at any time during his last couple seasons in Jacksonville. Let\'s see if he can finally top 20 TDs now.
Grade: C

Buffalo Bills
Former 1st round pick RT Mike Williams needs to keep improving if this line has aspirations of ascending into the upper echelon. Reuben Brown\'s departure won\'t hurt as much as some people might think. His play slipped badly last season. The starting unit remains intact so continuity and experience should yield better results in \'04. The depth isn\'t bad either with Marques Sullivan at guard, Marcus Price at RT and Richard seals at RG.
Grade: C

Houston Texans
Free agent singings of RT Todd Wade and RG Zach Weigert help strengthen the right side of the line. Wade is solid, but Weigert is merely a serviceable veteran. This group might surprise. C Steve McKinney, LT Seth Wand and LG Chester Pitts all have unfulfilled potential at this point, but they just could also fuel a marked improvement for this group in 2004. The depth is decent across the board and TE Mark Bruener is also a strong blocker for his position.
Grade: C-

Tampa Bay Buccaneers
The coaching staff was unhappy with their line play in \'03. So, they signed several veteran free agents beginning with Todd Steussie, Derrick Deese, and Matt Stinchcomb, all of which are expected to start. The team is banking on improvement, but with this much turnover it could take a while. Watch them during the pre-season for signs either way. The depth is strong across the board so the Bucs offense should be better than average especially considering that Chucky is behind the controls.
Grade: C-

San Francisco 49ers
There\'s ample pressure on Kwame Harris to replace Derrick Deese at LT as 49ers are transitioning to youth at the cost of losing two former Pro Bowl performers in Deese and Ron Stone. Expect some growing pains in 2004, but for the long-term this group will be fine. Scott Gragg is a sturdy veteran right tackle and Jeremy Newberry is solid at center. Gaurds Eric Heitmann and Kyle Kosier will be the key to a strong running game, and as a unit they\'ll have a tall order in keeping defenses at bay with their immobile QB tandem of Tim Rattay and Ken Dorsey. Would it be unreasonable to think we could see Cody Pickett or Brandon Doman some time this year? Kevan Barlow owners hope not.
Grade: C-

Atlanta Falcons
Adding coach Alex Gibbs is a major addition behind the scenes, but you can\'t make filet mignon out of ground chuck. The right side of the line will anchor the line beginning with veteran right tackle Todd Weiner, RG Kynan Forney and center Todd McClure. It\'s a disappointment that TE Hunter Goodwin promptly retired after signing as a free agent in the off-season to be a glorified 3rd tackle. His blocking could have really fueled a rebirth to their ground game. Bob Whitfield is the veteran backup at LT and the depth is above average overall.
Grade: C-


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Table Scraps: Where\'s the Beef?

Pittsburgh Steelers
Injuries plagued the Steelers line in \'03. They were counting on Marvel Smith and Kendall Simmons to rebound, but Simmons is now possibly out for the year. Center Jeff Hartings has chronically bad knees but is being counted on to start. The depth is improved with rookie Max Starks at RT. The Steelers should be solid, if not average at least providing they gel and finally remain a bit healthier. Losing Simmons in the pre-season will test their depth. The offensive line is the biggest reason the Steelers offense slipped in 2003, for them to improve as a team they need to do it beginning right here. Alan Faneca is a rock at LG.
Grade: D+

Dallas Cowboys
Larry Allen appeared to be clearly declining and an infusion of youth and talent has been long overd. Yet there are promising signs coming from Allen and the line overall in training camp that Parcells may be able to coax more out of this group than originally anticipated. They better improve because the front office did nothing to address their needs in the off-season. Flozell Adams returns at LT, Larry Allen at LG and Al Johnson at center. Andre Gurode and Torrin Tucker will lay the ground work on the right side.
Grade: D+

Cleveland Browns
LT Ross Verba is a decent player, but he\'s out of position. Center Jeff Faine and RT Ryan Tucker are average, but not exactly Pro Bowlers either. The entire line is fairly unproven but they do have plenty of youth and possibly from their depth a few key players might emerge. Free agent Kelvin Garmon is an improvement at right guard, but left guard is a question mark with Enoch DeMar and Paul Zukauskas heading up the depth chart. Overall, this group lacks the punch needed to generate a power running attack and the Browns front office failed to make significant improvements in this area during the off-season. Be happy, Browns fans, you got the freakin\' soldier!
Grade: D

NY Giants
Chris Bober and Jeff Hatch are gone. Who? Exactly. The only thing worse than losing two of their starters is replacing them with former Browns starters. Seriously. When have the Browns ever had a good offensive line since their return to the NFL? Adding RG Chris Snee in the 2nd round helps, but with a lot of turnover and no major additions to last year\'s lackluster group that allowed 44 sacks (3rd most in the NFL), the outlook is a bit grim. Welcome aboard Kurt and Eli! No wonder new coach Tom Coughlin is keen on the rebirth of Ron Dayne to help provide these quarterbacks with a strong running attack and less pressure. The line could pan out to be decent, but it\'s not very pretty on paper and it may take a while for this entire offense to start clicking with so many new pieces to the puzzle.
Grade: D

Miami Dolphins
According to Dan Pompei, General manager Rick Spielman insists this year\'s offensive line is much better than their line a year ago at this time. I\'ll believe it when I see it even though Spielman is a good personnel guy. John St. Clair is shaky at left tackle, Vernon Carey will be counted on heavily to provide some relief soon, regardless of what position he ends up at. Free agent guard Jeno James definitely helps at right guard. Center Seth McKinney and left tackle Wade Smith are key players but right guard looks questionable. They allowed 31 sacks last year and there\'s a decent amoung of turnover here. Throw in the loss of Ricky Williams and David Boston, and all of a sudden this line looks kinda shakey, so expect some growing pains and another frustrating season for the Miami offense overall.
Grade: D

San Diego Chargers
Veteran Roman Oben takes over at left tacke after coming over from Tampa Bay. He\'s easily the most experienced member of this unit. The jury is still out on last year\'s 2nd rounder right guard Toniu Fonoti and the line has a lot of turnover without any definite upgrade in talent outside of Oben. If it weren\'t for Oben, the chargers off-season would be considered a disaster for the line. Regardless, the run blocking could be acceptable. But now you know why Eli Manning didn\'t want anything to do with MartyBall or the Chargers mess of an offensive line.
Grade: D-

WhoDat 04-02-2005 09:05 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
I will not deny that our line needs to improve. However, some people here seems to suggest that it has kept players on this team from succeeding, and has kept the team from succeeding itself.

What\'s wierd is that two seasons ago, Deuce was able to run for 1600 yards behind it and was a top RB in the league. The Saints lost Fontenot and Smith in the offseason - both moves that I said would be huge and that Billy shrugged off. The line\'s play and ability to run the ball was diminished... hmm - shocker.

Additionally, I don\'t get this argument that if the line plays better we\'ll be able to see what our other players can really do. A healthy Deuce and successful OL makes for a top NFL RB. The line, RB, QB, and other WRs don\'t seem to bother Joe Horn. A halfway healthy Horn = Pro Bowl. Also important to note - a good line or a bad line, a healthy running game or not, a Pro Bowl WR... and AB\'s number\'s don\'t change. Just look at the last 4 years. From the days of Roaf, Turley, and Fontenot to last season. There\'s not much variance.

If the line plays better, Deuce will be more successful and that means wins. It won\'t affect AB - he\'ll be inconsistent and bone-headed no matter what.

GumboBC 04-03-2005 10:43 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
WhoDat --

Man, what the heck are you talking about?

If you want to believe a better line won\'t help Brooks, then I really don\'t know what to say.

Furthermore, there\'s a big difference in run blocking and pass blocking. Tiki Barber had a great year running the ball but that didn\'t make the Giants\' offensive line great pass blockers.

Anyway, you are so far out in left field, I really don\'t think there\'s much use in responding to it.

Let me just say this. Whether you like Brooks or dislike him ... a QB needs time to throw the ball and that\'s the way it\'s always been and will always be.


saintz08 04-03-2005 01:44 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Let me just say this. Whether you like Brooks or dislike him ... a QB needs time to throw the ball and that\'s the way it\'s always been and will always be.
Now that\'s funny you should say that , because on that point I am going to agree . How much time is based upon the quarterback and the plays .You could have the starting Pro Bowl front line in front of an inferior quarterback and he is going to make that line look bad .A good quarterback sitting behind a suspect line can make the suspect line look good .

For example ...... ;)

The Suspect line of the San Diego Chargers .

San Diego Chargers
Veteran Roman Oben takes over at left tacke after coming over from Tampa Bay. He\'s easily the most experienced member of this unit. The jury is still out on last year\'s 2nd rounder right guard Toniu Fonoti and the line has a lot of turnover without any definite upgrade in talent outside of Oben. If it weren\'t for Oben, the chargers off-season would be considered a disaster for the line. Regardless, the run blocking could be acceptable. But now you know why Eli Manning didn\'t want anything to do with MartyBall or the Chargers mess of an offensive line.
Grade: D-

Wow they really sucked ......

But wait sports fans , they went 12 - 4 with that suspect line ... :idea:


Quote:

Brees sparkles; Chargers zap Raiders

SAN DIEGO (Oct. 31, 2004) -- Drew Brees has never looked better than he did against the hated Oakland Raiders.

He was practically perfect.

LaDainian Tomlinson and Drew Brees were brilliant, accounting for all six of San Diego\'s TDs in the win over Oakland.

Brees continued his remarkable turnaround from his nightmare of 2003, throwing a career-high five touchdown passes and setting team records for pass efficiency in leading the surprising San Diego Chargers to a 42-14 rout of the hapless Raiders.

Brees completed his first eight passes to quiet the thousands of Raiders fans in the stadium, and finished 22-of-25 for 281 yards and no interceptions. His 88 percent completion rate and 153.1 passer rating were team records. The highest rating a quarterback can have is 158.3.

\"Drew\'s on fire,\" star running back LaDainian Tomlinson said.

\"It was fun,\" Brees said. \"It felt like we could run anything in our base offense and we knew it was going to work. We had that confidence.\"

If Brees had played like this last year, the Chargers wouldn\'t have needed to spend a No. 1 pick millions on another quarterback, Philip Rivers.

Brees is doing his best to keep Rivers on the sideline. And since this is the last year of his contract, he could present the front office with a dilemma if he keeps playing well.
Wow - what does Brees attribute his success to ???

Quote:

Brees said the biggest difference between last season and this season is experience.

\"The game is slowing down. You see things before they happen,\" he said.
A little competition at the quarterback position inspires a player to step his game up and the Chargers finish 12 - 4 .

The single most important factor for the offense in San Diego was a little competition at the quarterback position .

And see what happened there ...... ;)

saintz08 04-03-2005 04:46 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Here is one for you GumboBC ..... ;)


There might not be an offensive tackle worth taking in the first round of the draft, including Florida State\'s Alex Barron. And now, there isn\'t a reason to reach for one, either

NFL teams can pass-block, run-block and win games without premium talent at the offensive line position. The Patriots proved this lesson. They won the Super Bowl with a second-round pick, a fifth-round pick and three scrapheap pickups. The Falcons reinforced it. They led the league in rushing with three seventh-round picks, a fourth-round pick and a 2002 veteran free-agent pickup.


The lesson was driven home by the Chargers, who were third in the NFL in points per game playing two rookies, a journeyman with his fourth team, a guard who had been considered a bust until last year and a 2004 veteran free-agent signee.


Just because Walter Jones and Orlando Pace, the NFL\'s best left tackles, recently signed long-term deals with the Seahawks and Rams is not a reason for teams to panic and overpay free-agent tackles with Frankenstein feet. One of the most questionable signings of the free-agent period was the 49ers\' giving $36 million to Jonas Jennings. The left tackle will make the 49ers better, but they could have used their money more prudently.


Falcons offensive line consultant Alex Gibbs prefers lower-round picks and undrafted free agents because he believes offensive linemen need to be developed and that high-round draft choices aren\'t afforded time or patience for development. It\'s an efficient philosophy on more than one front, enabling teams such as the Falcons to appropriate more salary cap space and cash to skill position players such as quarterback Michael Vick and tight end Alge Crumpler, both of whom recently signed lucrative extensions.


Now, some teams are emphasizing offensive line coaches more than linemen. The Dolphins were happy to recently sign line coach Hudson Houck, who coached the Chargers\' line last season, to a deal worth $850,000 per year.


\"The offensive line might be the position where coaching is more of a significant factor than any position,\" Bills general manager Tom Donahoe says. \"I think you need a premium offensive line coach, the guy who can take down-the-line guys and free agents and develop them into pretty good pros.\"


A superior offensive line coach certainly can improve players\' techniques. But the way he can help his team most is by implementing a blocker-friendly scheme.


\"You can take pressure off the blocker by running the ball, using the play-action pass,\" Falcons general manager Rich McKay says. \"If you are a team that has to throw 65 percent of the time and you\'re a dropback team, you\'re putting a lot of stress on your tackles. You better be able to protect.\"


In part because of how the Patriots\' offense is set up, the team got away with using Brandon Gorin at right tackle this season after Tom Ashworth was injured. It\'s not that difficult to block for the Patriots\' skill position players.


\"Corey Dillon is a back who sees the holes and gets into those holes quickly,\" Patriots line coach Dante Scarnecchia says. \"Tom Brady gets the ball out on rhythm, and we have receivers who can get in a pattern fast. That demands a lot less of your offensive line and makes it easier for them.\"


Continuity and understanding also allow offensive linemen to play more effectively than their skills might suggest. \"The ability of the players to react in a coordinated manner is what makes a good offensive line,\" Browns line coach Jeff Davidson says.


Scarnecchia and the Patriots are able to live with a tough offensive lineman who lacks ideal foot quickness, or one whose arms aren\'t quite long enough, or one who doesn\'t have as solid a base as they\'d prefer.


It is a lesson other teams would be wise to absorb.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3505276

;)


FireVenturi 04-03-2005 11:44 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
I dont care about any grades!!! we are not even in the top 20 at OL!!!!!

WhoDat 04-04-2005 09:04 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Let me just say this. Whether you like Brooks or dislike him ... a QB needs time to throw the ball and that\'s the way it\'s always been and will always be.
Well Billy, theoretically you\'re correct. But then, I wasn\'t arguing that point. The argument that a QB SHOULD perform better when he gets more time to throw is a pretty easy one to make. What I\'m suggesting is that the argument you made - essentially, if the line plays better the \"skill players\" will play better only seems to hold water when it comes to Deuce. Horn plays great no matter what. Brooks plays inconsistently no matter what. You can argue if you like, but Horn went to the Pro Bowl last year with a terrible line, and he went 3 and 4 years ago with a very good line. Brooks was inconsistent last year with a bad line and he was inconsistent before with a good line. Therefore, while theoretically speaking, your opinion makes sense, I am suggesting that as it relates to this team, it just hasn\'t been shown to make a difference in practice.

GumboBC 04-04-2005 09:13 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
WhoDat --

I really feel like I shouldn\'t have to explain this to you but ...

You like to make the argement that because Decue rushed for x-amount yards that that is an indication that our offensive line was pretty good.

That couldn\'t be further from the truth and here\'s why:

1. Deuce is good enough that he\'s going to make the line look better than what it is.

2. Run blocking really doesn\'t have anything to do with pass blocking. Some offensive linemen are great at run blocking but lack the foot speed to pass block.

And your arguement that Brooks struggles no matter how the offensive line plays is pretty ridiculous. And here\'s why:

In 2003 our offensive line was terrible at pass blocking. It was pointed out many times by myself and others. Some of you still wanted to suggest that because Deuce rushed for 1600 yards that our offensive line was good. That was hardly the case.

Also, the only good pass blocking line Brooks ever had was when Roaf and Turley was here. Brooks was a young improving QB that was going to make mistakes.

Say what you want, WhoDat. The truth or the matter is Brooks needs more time in the pocket. Whether you THINK Brooks will still make mistakes is really irrelevent.

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by GumboBC]

WhoDat 04-04-2005 09:27 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Sure Billy. You\'re right. The thing that has kept Brooks from being the All-Pro that you know him to be is our line... er WRs... er coaching/play calling.... er fans. Whatever, it\'s all their fault!!!

Jake Delhomme had a worse line and a better QB rating.
Peyton Manning doesn\'t need as much time as AB - he get the ball out more quickly.
;)

GumboBC 04-04-2005 10:46 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Sure Billy. You\'re right. The thing that has kept Brooks from being the All-Pro that you know him to be is our line... er WRs... er coaching/play calling.... er fans. Whatever, it\'s all their fault!!!

Jake Delhomme had a worse line and a better QB rating.
Peyton Manning doesn\'t need as much time as AB - he get the ball out more quickly.
;)
The Panthers did not have a worse line than ours. But that\'s just my opinion. And you are entilted to your opinion.

The only game I saw Jake get a lot of pressure was in the last game against us. And Jake really really struggled.

Brooks faced that kind of pressure on almost a weekly basis.

Anyway, I hope we have a much better O-line this year. I honestly believe that is the single most important factor for the offense.

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by GumboBC]

GoldenTomb 04-04-2005 11:16 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Oh come on now.....I saw numerous times where Brooks was in the pocket for 5+ seconds and just had that Thousand-yard stare going on. I agree that O-line has been a huge problem but if Brooks could read defenses, he could\'ve had a few more completions and a few less INTs and fumbles.

Does the o-line make you throw off your back foot?
Does the o-line make you throw endzone INTs?
Does the o-line deprive you of the ability to hit any of your recievers in stride?
Does the o-line make you throw inverted passes(still don\'t know how he did that)?
Does the o-line make you fumble the ball?

Sacks are the what the o-line is at fault for. Not INTs, fumbles, or completely bone head plays.

Fumbles
2004 - 13
2003 - 14
2002 - 11
2001 - 13

Seems like even when he had the \"superior\" line he was still fumbling.

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by GoldenTomb]

saintz08 04-04-2005 11:47 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Special WhoDat link .....

http://boards.atlantafalcons.com/lof...hp?t62199.html

And they say were bad ..... :rollinglaugh:

WhoDat 04-04-2005 01:27 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
ROFLMFAO.

08 - That made my day. My favorite post: In response to Brooks\' comments in which he said:

\"I really don\'t have much to say to none of y\'all,\" he said. \"I said after the game that I\'d be laughing at y\'all, the fake experts in the media. All y\'all been talking (expletive) on Aaron Brooks.\"


One poster writes:

\"oh, goodness. bar the doors when they start talking in the third person.

sounds like leon, to me. haven\'t seen delhomme throw a backwards pass to his lineman yet. \"


LMAO. That\'s an ATLANTA FAN talking ish. Hey Billy, they must have some agenda-crazed fans in Atlanta huh? Those guys must want to see AB gone as much as we do, b/c they secretly love Delhomme also, right?

GumboBC 04-04-2005 01:59 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Lord, Lord ....

I hear the same ol\' things over and over.

Like Brooks \"locks\" on to Joe Horn. Or Brooks turns the ball over more than other QBs. I prove you guys wrong time after time and you still post that stuff on here.

But that\'s fine. If you don\'t want the truth and just want to talk \"smack\" then that\'s your business.

I\'m just not going to waste much time with it.


I don\'t think there\'s one person on here that thinks our offensive line doesn\'t need to improve GREATLY.

Like I said: \"Watch the ball -if you dare- but if the offensive line doesn\'t improve ... this whole thing just got a lot harder.

Not harder for Joe Horn or Decue McAllister necessarily. But getting the ball to the 2nd and 3rd receivers is gonna be a B*ITCH. ;)

Not to mention the busted plays or the bad plays a terrible offensive line causes.

baronm 04-04-2005 02:08 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Lord, Lord ....

I hear the same ol\' things over and over.

Like Brooks \"locks\" on to Joe Horn. Or Brooks turns the ball over more than other QBs. I prove you guys wrong time after time and you still post that stuff on here.

But that\'s fine. If you don\'t want the truth and just want to talk \"smack\" then that\'s your business.

I\'m just not going to waste much time with it.


I don\'t think there\'s one person on here that thinks our offensive line doesn\'t need to improve GREATLY.

Like I said: \"Watch the ball -if you dare- but if the offensive line doesn\'t improve ... this whole thing just got a lot harder.

Not harder for Joe Horn or Decue McAllister necessarily. But getting the ball to the 2nd and 3rd receivers is gonna be a B*ITCH. ;)

Not to mention the busted plays or the bad plays a terrible offensive line causes.
gumbo-the whole world knows we have a QB that is only a legend in his own mind. It\'s not \"smack\" it\'s true...we either need him to get his attitude in check or leave. unfortunatly, right now there isn\'t a better one on the market...so we need him to grow up and start playing TEAM football.

true..the line needs work..most here will admit that.
true..we didn\'t ahve a great running game last year...most will admit that
true..our defense needs work...everyone has admitted that.

but Gumbo-our QB is a better athlete than he is a football player, has not been held accountable by the coaching staff-so he passes the blame to everyone but himself..and I for one am sick of this.

either he starts to take command of the position or he needs to go..and we as fans need to stop apologizing for him.

Quote:

If our offensive line doesn\'t play better it won\'t matter so much what the \"skill\" players do
I do m, however agree with this...we need to get some OT\'s in this draft...the question is who and where?

I\"m thinking adam terry and wesly britt later on in the draft..we could start to groom them.

I\'m not sure stithcomb isn\'t more of a guard.

we need our O-line to be dominat to give the rest of the offense a chance..and that includes not racking up penalties again this season..that drove me more nuts than anything else.

[Edited on 4/4/2005 by baronm]

WhoDat 04-04-2005 02:50 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Not harder for Joe Horn or Decue McAllister necessarily. But getting the ball to the 2nd and 3rd receivers is gonna be a B*ITCH.
I\'m not sure Brooks knows that he has options other than Horn. And even if he knew he had them, I certainly haven\'t seen him recognize coverages and find them in the past... unless someone flashes right across his face or is standing all alone behind the defense waving his hands and shouting, \"Gumby! Fumbalia! I\'m open throw it here... and put some air under it you can\'t get it 40 yards on a straight line, nimrod!\"

GumboBC 04-04-2005 02:56 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
WhoDat --

With all due respect, and I mean that ...

Before I listen to someone about \"reading\" defenses, then I have to question your ability to read a defense.

What\'s your background in \"reading\" defenses?

It\'s easy to see a missed tackle a lot of times, but it\'s hard to \"read\" a defense by watching a game on TV.

I\'m not saying you are wrong, but I sure have to question your knowledge in this area.

baronm 04-04-2005 02:59 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Quote:

Quote:

Not harder for Joe Horn or Decue McAllister necessarily. But getting the ball to the 2nd and 3rd receivers is gonna be a B*ITCH.
I\'m not sure Brooks knows that he has options other than Horn. And even if he knew he had them, I certainly haven\'t seen him recognize coverages and find them in the past... unless someone flashes right across his face or is standing all alone behind the defense waving his hands and shouting, \"Gumby! Fumbalia! I\'m open throw it here... and put some air under it you can\'t get it 40 yards on a straight line, nimrod!\"
with respect to that-it\'s been said that peyton manning is just now getting comfortable with his offensive weapons other than the main ones.

WhoDat 04-04-2005 03:10 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Before I even entertain that question with an answer, let me lob one back over at you.

Do you believe that a person must have a certain talent or skill to know that another person does not? To I have to be a genius to know a genius? Is that a theory you\'re trying to forward here?

saintz08 04-04-2005 10:05 PM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
GumboBC

You still have problems with that Brooks reading defenses problem . It has been an issue with Brooks since college , Defensive players have called him on it and scouts have called him on it .

Here is one original report :

Aaron Brooks | QB | Virginia | ACC
Selected by Green Bay Packers in round 4, pick 36 (#131 overall)
Ht Wt 40 BP SS LS VJ BJ Grade
6\'3\" 203 4.57 - 4.33 - 35.5 10\' 5.45

Scott Halleran/Allsport

He is an athletic and mobile QB with good measurables and good intelligence. He has solid arm strength and can make all the throws necessary. He has really improved in the last two years, but he is a guy that doesn\'t appear to have great discipline in the pocket. In spite of his intelligence, he does not have great patience and seems to scramble a little more than he should when he doesn\'t read a defense. He is a little up and down in his production and doesn\'t always seem to be a real natural QB. The NFL teams that like him will take time to let him develop in his recognition of defenses as his measurables and intangibles are a positive.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...ers/18199.html

I know you have trouble reading how Brooks has trouble reading defenses , so I made it bolder .Now if opposing defenses just made the linebacker bolder maybe Brooks would not have issues .

Deal with it , Brooks needs hooked on Defenseonics ... ;)

saintz08 04-05-2005 12:06 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
Great early Mock , appeared early February .

Saints pick is well out of range , but still .... ;)

SPORTING NEWS MOCK DRAFT: Round 1

Pick Team Player Pos. School Previous Rising/Falling High/Low

1. 49ers Braylon Edwards WR Michigan 4th (+3) 1st / 4th
New coach Mike Nolan and GM Scot McCloughan want to trade down but can\'t find a willing partner. They have many needs and will take the best player available. Edwards is big (6-3, 211) and fast (4.45 speed), has great hands and has the potential to become an All-Pro receiver. He is a sure thing, which can\'t be said of QBs Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith.
2. Dolphins Ronnie Brown RB Auburn 2nd SAME 2nd / 25th
New coach Nick Saban is a defense-first coach and has final say on all personnel matters. But he needs a workhorse back to make his conservative, ball-control offense work. Brown is big (6-0, 230) with great speed (4.43), is tough to tackle and catches the ball well.
3. Browns Derrick Johnson OLB Texas 3rd SAME 3rd / 3rd
New coach Romeo Crennel and GM Phil Savage already are working in concert. Crennel is a defensive guy who favors the 3-4 scheme and knows the value of elite linebackers. In Baltimore, Savage drafted multiple Pro Bowl linebackers who became the core of dominant units. Johnson is a great athlete with natural instincts.
4. Bears Carnell Williams RB Auburn 5th (+1) 4th / 25th
The Bears will take the biggest playmaker on the board. If not for the signing of free agent Muhsin Muhammad, WR Mike Williams might\'ve gotten the nod here. There is a deep pool of WRs, so the Bears will get one later. Incumbent RB Thomas Jones is OK, but Williams is a workhorse with touchdown potential on every carry.
5. Buccaneers Mike Williams* WR USC 7th (+2) 5th / 21st
Coach Jon Gruden says he never can have enough weapons. Williams grew up in Tampa and will have marketing appeal. More important, he is big, physical and extremely talented. He and second-year man Michael Clayton could power Gruden\'s pass-happy attack for a decade.
6. Titans Alex Smith* QB Utah 16th (+10) 6th / 24th
Despite what Titans officials say, the team is in rebuilding mode. Smith has great upside and could sit behind Steve McNair for a couple years and learn without undo pressure. Smith is big, shows outstanding athleticism and is a proven leader.
7. Vikings
(from Raiders) Troy Williamson* WR South Carolina 14th (+7) 7th / 2nd round
The Vikings rebuilt the defense through free agency and trades and will look to try and replace some of Randy Moss\' production here. Williamson is lightning fast and immediately would become Daunte Culpepper\'s new deep threat.
8. Cardinals Cedric Benson RB Texas 8th SAME 2nd / 8th
The Cardinals have outstanding young receivers, upgraded their offensive line through free agency and put a Band-Aid on the QB position. Coach Dennis Green covets a power running back, and Benson has the size and will to run hard between the tackles and the great vision and speed to get outside. Benson would balance the offense and take pressure off the QB.
9. Redskins Adam Jones* CB West Virginia 11th (+2) 8th / 32nd
Washington traded away Champ Bailey last year, just lost Fred Smoot in free agency and now have a glaring need at cornerback. Jones (5-9 1/2, 187) lacks great size but is a big-time playmaker with a confident, winning attitude. He gambles at times, but his risky decisions usually pay off. Jones would have to become a better assignment corner in coordinator\'s Gregg Williams\' disciplined defense.
10. Lions Alex Barron T Florida State 10th SAME 5th / 14th
The Lions must upgrade at OT and would be thrilled if Barron — the No. 1-rated player in our Super 99 — slides this far. Barron is huge and has outstanding athleticism. Most important, he is a great pass blocker. Barron might struggle if asked to play right tackle because he is not an exceptional run blocker. If the Lions get Barron, expect LT Jeff Backus to move to the right side.
11. Cowboys Mark Clayton WR Oklahoma 22nd (+11) 11th / 22nd
With the first of two first-round picks, the Cowboys hope to get the missing piece in their attempt to re-create the triplet magic of the \'90s at QB, RB and WR. Last year, the team drafted RB Julius Jones. This off-season, strong-armed QB Drew Bledsoe was signed. Clayton would bring a desperately needed receiving threat downfield. Clayton is a playmaker who can score from anywhere.
12. Chargers
(from Giants) Erasmus Jones DE Wisconsin 9th (-3) 6th / 12th
San Diego must get a young receiver but won\'t be able to pass up James. James never stops hustling and thus is the anti-Marcellus Wiley. James (6-4, 266) is a little undersized to be a 3-4 end, but plays with great intensity and leverage.
13. Texans Antrel Rolle CB Miami (Fla.) 6th (-7) 6th / 13th
Facing the Colts and Jaguars twice a year in the pass-happy AFC South, Houston is forced to use nickel personnel about two-thirds of the time. Rolle has decent size and speed but shows great instincts and never misses an assignment.
14. Panthers Thomas Davis* S Georgia 18th (+4) 14th / 2nd round
The big, physical Davis would round out the Panthers\' elite defense. He is quick and has decent straight-line speed for a strong safety. Thomas is a big hitter who will be great in run support but might be a liability in pass coverage.
15. Chiefs Carlos Rogers CB Auburn 15th SAME 15th / 2nd round
The Chiefs have quantity at cornerback but must upgrade the quality. Rogers, whose stock is rising, has great speed and quickness. He is physical and fearless and would help against the run, too. He needs to improve his ball skills, however.
16. Saints Aaron Rodgers* QB California 1st (-15) 1st / 16th
Rodgers\' stock is dropping fast because of The Tedford Factor. All of coach Jeff Tedford\'s elite college QBs have been NFL busts. Aaron Brooks\' immaturity is wearing thin on Saints officials, who might jump at the chance to get a young guy to push him. Rodgers is a bit undersized but has a strong arm, outstanding fundamentals and can make all the throws.
17. Bengals Travis Johnson DT Florida State 17th SAME 11th / 17th
The Bengals had trouble stopping the run in \'04. The addition of free-agent DT Bryan Robinson will help, but it\'s just a stopgap measure. Johnson is a big, physical presence but is quick enough to play in a one-gap scheme.
18. Vikings David Pollack DE Georgia 21st (+3) 6th / 21st
As the Vikings continue to remake their defense, Pollack gives them the athletic, standup edge rusher they need to play the 3-4 that Ted Cottrell prefers. At 6-2 1/8, 265 with very short (30½-inch) arms, Pollack overcomes concerns about his size with great speed and quickness (3.90 short shuttle), outstanding instincts and nonstop hustle. Best suited as a pass rusher, Pollack also can stuff the run and play in open field.
19. Rams Jammal Brown OT Oklahoma 19th SAME 19th / 28th
The Rams are closer to locking up franchise LT Orlando Pace, but they need to replace Kyle Turley on the opposite side. At 6-5 7/8, 316, Brown has long, strong arms, and works best in pass protection. He has the tools for run blocking but needs to get stronger and bulkier to excel at it.
20. Cowboys
(from Bills) Shawne Merriman* DE Maryland 13th (-7) 13th / 23rd
Bill Parcells is a 3-4 defensive coach at heart and is looking to acquire the personnel to make the transition. Merriman is an outstanding athlete who played both linebacker and end in college and may be the key ingredient. At 6-4 3/8, 272, Merriman may be asked to lean up to increase his speed on the edge.
21. Jaguars Marcus Spears DE LSU 31st (+10) 21st / 2nd round
The Jaguars have two of the best young DTs in the game in John Henderson and Marcus Stroud, and they added end Reggie Hayward. Spears, at 6-4, 307, would play left end in the team\'s upfield attacking scheme. Spears has great athleticism and agility and might be the finishing touch on a dominant front four.
22. Ravens Matt Roth DE Iowa 24th (+2) 22nd / 2nd round
The Ravens are converting to a 4-3 and must restock their personnel. At 6-3¾, 278, Roth plays with nonstop hustle and sometimes gets a little out of control. He must improve his pass-rush discipline but shows tremendous potential. He also can play either end.
23. Seahawks Justin Miller* CB Clemson 29th (+6) 23rd / 2nd round
Seattle lost CB Ken Lucas in free agency and must address this need early. Miller, at 5-9¾, 201 with 4.42 speed, possesses great change-of-direction and ball skills, and is a tough, physical defender. He also was a productive kick returner in college.
24. Packers Shaun Cody DT USC 20th (-4) 19th / 29th
Cody is a versatile defender who can play anywhere on the line. He eventually will settle in as a tackle. Cody has the hustle and intensity to go along with good size (6-4, 293). He would fits Green Bay\'s attacking scheme with his ability to penetrate, get upfield and make plays on the ball.
25. Broncos Justin Tuck* DE Notre Dame 2nd round 25th / 2nd round
The Broncos are looking to trade Trevor Pryce, and have little talent or depth at end after losing Hayward. Tuck (6-5, 268) is a relentless pass rusher who should step right in and help Denver get pressure on the passer.
26. Jets Corey Webster CB LSU 23rd (-3) 15th / 30th
The Jets must upgrade their secondary, starting with speed and coverage skills at cornerback. Donnie Henderson likes to attack on defense, often leaving his corners one-on-one against a receiver. Webster has good size (6-0 1/8, 199) with long arms, plays physical at the line and is willing in run support. He uses his frame and ball skills to his advantage downfield, making up for his slight speed deficiency.
27. Falcons Darryl Blackstock* OLB Virginia 32nd (+5) 27th / 2nd round
Ed Donatell calls for an upfield attacking scheme. Paired with Pro Bowler Keith Brooking, Blackstock will be set free to use his speed and athleticism to pressure the quarterback and run to the ball, the two things he loves to do.
28. Chargers Demarcus Ware OLB Troy State 2nd round 28th / 2nd round
The Chargers are one of the leaders in the copycat NFL. Wade Phillips installed the 3-4 upon his arrival and the team has remade its personnel to fit. Now that there are as many as a dozen teams using 3-4s, Ware is the type of player who is in great demand. Ware, 6-4, 251 with 4.56 speed, played outside linebacker in college. He shows both the speed and burst to rush the passer off the edge and both the athleticism and instincts to play in open field.
29. Colts Fabian Washington* CB Nebraska N/A 29th / N/A
The Colts must upgrade their speed at cornerback. Washington had an Olympian Combine workout, posting a 4.29 forty, a 3.91 short shuttle and a 41½-inch vertical leap. A bit undersized at 5-10½, 188, he compensates with his athleticism and strong coverage skills.
30. Steelers Marlin Jackson CB Michigan 2nd round 12th / 2nd round
Jackson, a big, physical corner at 6-0 5/8, 198, possesses all the skills to be a starting corner but is a step away from elite speed at 4.52. He shows great quickness — he posted a 3.96 short shuttle that makes up for some of his speed deficit. He played both corner and safety in college and would be a factor in the Steelers\' nickel packages until he eventually takes over at corner for veteran Willie Williams.
31. Eagles Channing Crowder* ILB Florida 27th (-4) 18th / 2nd round
The Eagles need an upgrade at LB, the weakest position on a very strong defense. Jim Johnson likes to call blitzes from everywhere and needs athletic LBs for them to be effective. If not for some character concerns, we would have Crowder off the board sooner. He is very aggressive and plays with nonstop hustle. He can be undisciplined, but he is still young, having played only two years at Florida and leaving as a redshirt sophomore.
32. Patriots Barrett Ruud ILB Nebraska 2nd round 18th / 2nd round
The Patriots\' defense is driven by its aging linebackers. Tedy Bruschi may not return from a minor stroke and Ted Johnson and Willie McGinest are two of league\'s oldest linebackers. Ruud is the versatile player Bill Belichick looks for. Ruud isn\'t the most athletic defender, but he plays smart and has great character both on and off the field.

Immaturity - another fine trait that is hardly ever touched on .... ;)

[Edited on 5/4/2005 by saintz08]

GumboBC 04-05-2005 09:40 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
WhoDat --

You don\'t have to be an expert to know certain things. But, it just seemed like you were trying to pass something off as if you were some kind of expert at reading defenses.

Furthermore, there is no way you can acurately tell if Brooks or any QB can read defenses by watching the game on TV.

It can\'t be done.




WhoDat 04-05-2005 09:53 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
I\'m not trying to pass myself off as an expert at reading NFL defenses by suggesting that AB cannot.

I have seen a number of Saints games with AB at the helm in the Dome - probably 15 or 20 in the last 4 or 5 years. Not a ton, but enough to have seen plays develop from above and watch Brooks miss players who are wide open.

How many games do you go to Billy? I posted last season after going to a game that I had forgotten and was impressed with just how bad AB actually is at reading a defense after seeing plays develop from above.

My own first-hand experience seeing things that he misses (mind you, with a better vantage point I concede), combined with numerous scouts and analysts repeating over the years that he isn\'t good at reading defenses (including watching Salsbury show tape of his f-ups on ESPN), oppossing players saying that they didn\'t believe AB could read well coming into games, and even the fact that Joe Horn and AB had a falling out b/c the WRs were talking trash about AB WHILE WATCHING GAME FILM, is enough to make me feel confident that AB cannot read defenses.

I\'ve seen it. I\'ve heard people who make their living judging football and football players confirm it. And I\'ve heard the players AB plays WITH and against confirm it. That\'s enough for me. I take that over, \"Well, I can\'t tell by watching it on TV, but nevermind what that plethora of other experts and laymen alike all say, I think the guy can read a defense. Besides, it\'s all the o-line\'s fault anyway!\"

baronm 04-05-2005 09:53 AM

Single most important factor for the offense
 
no, but you can listen to the experts and when they all say the sky is blue--usually the sky is a shade of blue...

as for the saints pick-I don\' think anyone has the slightest idea how the second have of the board will fall..esp. with teams like the saints who have multiple needs-I asure you-it won\'t be rogers.


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