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Payton need to go?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I can't let this go and this is going to get long. Guido don't miss your flight to Vegas while reading this LOL. If you're a professional sports coach and your actions demonstrate you are careless enough to run a ...

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Old 09-12-2017, 07:41 PM   #101
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Re: Payton need to go?

I can't let this go and this is going to get long. Guido don't miss your flight to Vegas while reading this LOL.

If you're a professional sports coach and your actions demonstrate you are careless enough to run a future hall-of-fame player into the ground, it's your time to go. That is why this is my last straw with Payton. When former Lakers coach D'Antoni allowed Kobe to play 45+ minutes night after night after night and Kobe ended up blowing his Achilles, I held D'Antoni solely responsible for being asleep at the wheel and signing off on Kobe's insane usage. Payton's mistake is on par with that gaffe.

I talked to my step-brother, a huge Vikings fan, about AP joining the Saints a few months ago. He said AP had a great chance to succeed in New Orleans because AP has never played with a QB as good as Brees, never played in a more powerful passing game. On paper, with a healthy Brees and receiving core, Peterson would have more consistent running room than he has maybe ever had in his career.

Though AP and the Saints were an odd fit, this was the logical consensus just about everyone - my family, my father, Saints fans, Vikings fans, talking heads, sportswriters - came to. You had to see there was some upside to having a balanced attack and allow the aging stars Brees and AP the chance to take the pressure off each other. Otherwise, why would Saints even entertain signing AP? Brees' passing ability would keep defenders from loading the box and keying on the run. Adrian's presence would slow down the pass rush as they would often have to worry about giving AP a seam and a head of steam running into open field.

Then, everyone in the Saints org was raving about AP's ability in the offseason. Unlike the Vikings, the Saints have 2 quality backs in Ingram and Kamara to spell AP and avoid tiring him out, which was sometimes the Vikings' pitfall. Payton's off-season lip service to the running game finally seemed like it could be legit, because this time it was backed up by an acquisition that indicated they were more serious than before. And we had tools at our disposal to rekindle AP's productivity that the Vikings lacked. While AP's health and age were a risk, I saw some upside.

So keeping all of this mind, the usage of AP last night by Payton and Carmichael is completely indefensible. Every single time AP appeared on the field (except for the goalline rollout pass which was both wrong place wrong time and too little too late) he got handed the ball on garden-variety runs. In stark contrast, Ingram and Kamara got to do it all with plenty of playing time on the field - run, catch, block, etc.

The closest thing I can manufacture to an excuse for Payton/Carmichael is that they just got into the moment and started calling plays, and it happened to turn out that way that AP was running all the time. But I just can't buy that. Not when 1) you've had eons to prepare for this single opening game, 2) AP had additional knowledge and fire in playing his old team and 3) Kamara and Ingram's usage stood in stark contrast to AP's.

You would have to be hard pressed to find any high school or college coach in the entire country, regardless of who their QB or other RB's were, that would even *consider* using AP in the manner that unfolded Monday night. And yet, here we are.

Payton/Carmichael can be erratic and predictable calling the offense. No one's going to always agree with the play calls which sometimes work and backfire, I get that. Football is game of playcall vs playcall and the conjecture and 20/20 hindsight is part of the sport. But the more serious problem is that the Saints scheme has gotten so rote, that defenses can sometime spot a specific personnel and formation on the field and identify with an incredibly high degree of accuracy where the ball is going. These kinds of plays are our drive-killers. They run counter to basic football strategy, which is to do a variety of things out of similar looks. Most any high school football coach understands and uses this concept. This concept was an important element of football before the forward pass even existed, for cripes sake! But Payton doesn't seem like he gets it or wants to get it, frankly. It's like he's coaching a different sport.

So when you consider the transparent playcalling gaffes - and there were multiple in this game as well - AP's misuse, to me, is the final straw. The mistakes go together such that it seems at times Payton really doesn't care what he is telegraphing - and those consequences are massive.

A few hands of poker where you put your cards face up on the table is likely to ruin what could have otherwise been a successful night. So, as far as I am concerned, Payton can go play poker on someone else's dime.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:49 PM   #102
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Re: Payton need to go?

Originally Posted by neugey View Post
I can't let this go and this is going to get long. Guido don't miss your flight to Vegas while reading this LOL.

If you're a professional sports coach and your actions demonstrate you are careless enough to run a future hall-of-fame player into the ground, it's your time to go. That is why this is my last straw with Payton. When former Lakers coach D'Antoni allowed Kobe to play 45+ minutes night after night after night and Kobe ended up blowing his Achilles, I held D'Antoni solely responsible for being asleep at the wheel and signing off on Kobe's insane usage. Payton's mistake is on par with that gaffe.

I talked to my step-brother, a huge Vikings fan, about AP joining the Saints a few months ago. He said AP had a great chance to succeed in New Orleans because AP has never played with a QB as good as Brees, never played in a more powerful passing game. On paper, with a healthy Brees and receiving core, Peterson would have more consistent running room than he has maybe ever had in his career.

Though AP and the Saints were an odd fit, this was the logical consensus just about everyone - my family, my father, Saints fans, Vikings fans, talking heads, sportswriters - came to. You had to see there was some upside to having a balanced attack and allow the aging stars Brees and AP the chance to take the pressure off each other. Otherwise, why would Saints even entertain signing AP? Brees' passing ability would keep defenders from loading the box and keying on the run. Adrian's presence would slow down the pass rush as they would often have to worry about giving AP a seam and a head of steam running into open field.

Then, everyone in the Saints org was raving about AP's ability in the offseason. Unlike the Vikings, the Saints have 2 quality backs in Ingram and Kamara to spell AP and avoid tiring him out, which was sometimes the Vikings' pitfall. Payton's off-season lip service to the running game finally seemed like it could be legit, because this time it was backed up by an acquisition that indicated they were more serious than before. And we had tools at our disposal to rekindle AP's productivity that the Vikings lacked. While AP's health and age were a risk, I saw some upside.

So keeping all of this mind, the usage of AP last night by Payton and Carmichael is completely indefensible. Every single time AP appeared on the field (except for the goalline rollout pass which was both wrong place wrong time and too little too late) he got handed the ball on garden-variety runs. In stark contrast, Ingram and Kamara got to do it all with plenty of playing time on the field - run, catch, block, etc.

The closest thing I can manufacture to an excuse for Payton/Carmichael is that they just got into the moment and started calling plays, and it happened to turn out that way that AP was running all the time. But I just can't buy that. Not when 1) you've had eons to prepare for this single opening game, 2) AP had additional knowledge and fire in playing his old team and 3) Kamara and Ingram's usage stood in stark contrast to AP's.

You would have to be hard pressed to find any high school or college coach in the entire country, regardless of who their QB or other RB's were, that would even *consider* using AP in the manner that unfolded Monday night. And yet, here we are.

Payton/Carmichael can be erratic and predictable calling the offense. No one's going to always agree with the play calls which sometimes work and backfire, I get that. Football is game of playcall vs playcall and the conjecture and 20/20 hindsight is part of the sport. But the more serious problem is that the Saints scheme has gotten so rote, that defenses can sometime spot a specific personnel and formation on the field and identify with an incredibly high degree of accuracy where the ball is going. These kinds of plays are our drive-killers. They runs counter to basic football strategy, which is to do a variety of things out of similar looks. Most any high school football coach understands and uses this concept. This concept was an important element of football before the forward pass even existed, for cripes sake! But Payton doesn't seem like he gets it or wants to get it, frankly. It's like he's coaching a different sport.

So when you consider the transparent playcalling gaffes - and there were multiple in this game as well - AP's misuse, to me, is the final straw. The mistakes go together such that it seems at times Payton really doesn't care what he is telegraphing - and those consequences are massive.

A few hands of poker where you put your cards face up on the table is likely to ruin what could have otherwise been a successful night. So, as far as I am concerned, Payton can go play poker on someone else's dime.
I'll remember that in Vegas. But, perhaps Payton saw the determination to totally key on Peterson by the defense. Or perhaps he saw it as a tease against more vulnerable defenses ... like every one we face the rest of the year. I don't know. But is is only one game. Oh, and I'll drop $20 on the Saints to win the Super Bowl. That'll finance the next trip.

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Old 09-12-2017, 07:54 PM   #103
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Re: Payton need to go?

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
Please, let's not go through this again. We're on the same team. To me it is negative. Accept that. To you it isn't. I accept that. Expecting another 7-9 after one game is negative in my mind. Not so in yours. No problem.

And I prefer fried gator poboys to poop sandwiches.

Well I was referencing Dude since he said do you really need to read all the negative posts. Not you. But an honest opinion is neither negative or positive. It just is an opinion. No adjective needed.

Here is good article for you to read and anyone on the board. It puts to rest the idea that this game sits inside some vacuum. It is just another piece of data. I have no idea what to expect from this team, but we don't look much different. And until they prove to me otherwise we are 0-1 and look poor in many aspects of football right now. We look like the same bad team we have been. I hope we aren't. I hope we run off 3 or 4 straight wins. All I want to do is get back to winning. It has been far too long and I am tired of watching this garbage Sean puts on TV every Sunday

Wasn't this season supposed to be different for the Saints? | NOLA.com

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Old 09-12-2017, 08:04 PM   #104
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Re: Payton need to go?

Originally Posted by neugey View Post
I can't let this go and this is going to get long. Guido don't miss your flight to Vegas while reading this LOL.

If you're a professional sports coach and your actions demonstrate you are careless enough to run a future hall-of-fame player into the ground, it's your time to go. That is why this is my last straw with Payton. When former Lakers coach D'Antoni allowed Kobe to play 45+ minutes night after night after night and Kobe ended up blowing his Achilles, I held D'Antoni solely responsible for being asleep at the wheel and signing off on Kobe's insane usage. Payton's mistake is on par with that gaffe.

I talked to my step-brother, a huge Vikings fan, about AP joining the Saints a few months ago. He said AP had a great chance to succeed in New Orleans because AP has never played with a QB as good as Brees, never played in a more powerful passing game. On paper, with a healthy Brees and receiving core, Peterson would have more consistent running room than he has maybe ever had in his career.

Though AP and the Saints were an odd fit, this was the logical consensus just about everyone - my family, my father, Saints fans, Vikings fans, talking heads, sportswriters - came to. You had to see there was some upside to having a balanced attack and allow the aging stars Brees and AP the chance to take the pressure off each other. Otherwise, why would Saints even entertain signing AP? Brees' passing ability would keep defenders from loading the box and keying on the run. Adrian's presence would slow down the pass rush as they would often have to worry about giving AP a seam and a head of steam running into open field.

Then, everyone in the Saints org was raving about AP's ability in the offseason. Unlike the Vikings, the Saints have 2 quality backs in Ingram and Kamara to spell AP and avoid tiring him out, which was sometimes the Vikings' pitfall. Payton's off-season lip service to the running game finally seemed like it could be legit, because this time it was backed up by an acquisition that indicated they were more serious than before. And we had tools at our disposal to rekindle AP's productivity that the Vikings lacked. While AP's health and age were a risk, I saw some upside.

So keeping all of this mind, the usage of AP last night by Payton and Carmichael is completely indefensible. Every single time AP appeared on the field (except for the goalline rollout pass which was both wrong place wrong time and too little too late) he got handed the ball on garden-variety runs. In stark contrast, Ingram and Kamara got to do it all with plenty of playing time on the field - run, catch, block, etc.

The closest thing I can manufacture to an excuse for Payton/Carmichael is that they just got into the moment and started calling plays, and it happened to turn out that way that AP was running all the time. But I just can't buy that. Not when 1) you've had eons to prepare for this single opening game, 2) AP had additional knowledge and fire in playing his old team and 3) Kamara and Ingram's usage stood in stark contrast to AP's.

You would have to be hard pressed to find any high school or college coach in the entire country, regardless of who their QB or other RB's were, that would even *consider* using AP in the manner that unfolded Monday night. And yet, here we are.

Payton/Carmichael can be erratic and predictable calling the offense. No one's going to always agree with the play calls which sometimes work and backfire, I get that. Football is game of playcall vs playcall and the conjecture and 20/20 hindsight is part of the sport. But the more serious problem is that the Saints scheme has gotten so rote, that defenses can sometime spot a specific personnel and formation on the field and identify with an incredibly high degree of accuracy where the ball is going. These kinds of plays are our drive-killers. They run counter to basic football strategy, which is to do a variety of things out of similar looks. Most any high school football coach understands and uses this concept. This concept was an important element of football before the forward pass even existed, for cripes sake! But Payton doesn't seem like he gets it or wants to get it, frankly. It's like he's coaching a different sport.

So when you consider the transparent playcalling gaffes - and there were multiple in this game as well - AP's misuse, to me, is the final straw. The mistakes go together such that it seems at times Payton really doesn't care what he is telegraphing - and those consequences are massive.

A few hands of poker where you put your cards face up on the table is likely to ruin what could have otherwise been a successful night. So, as far as I am concerned, Payton can go play poker on someone else's dime.
I feel you bro. Remember how we originally used Ingram? He never did anything but run and we wondered why he always had 2 yard gains. Everyone knew what he was in for.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:09 PM   #105
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Re: Payton need to go?

Originally Posted by spkb25 View Post
I feel you bro. Remember how we originally used Ingram? He never did anything but run and we wondered why he always had 2 yard gains. Everyone knew what he was in for.
Right. Also Khiry, Ivory, Hightower.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:21 PM   #106
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Re: Payton need to go?

No holes = no run game

Not that difficult to understand
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:39 PM   #107
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Re: Payton need to go?

Originally Posted by Danno View Post
No holes = no run game

Not that difficult to understand
Right. We don't run block well. I don't remember when we did.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:17 PM   #108
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Re: Payton need to go?

Originally Posted by saintfan View Post
Right. We don't run block well. I don't remember when we did.
Last season, footballoutsiders rated the Saints with the best run blocking line in the league.

5th in the league in pass blocking.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2016 OFFENSIVE LINES
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:44 PM   #109
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Re: Payton need to go?

And that equaled 7 wins, who cares what the line was ranked last year
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:19 PM   #110
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Re: Payton need to go?

Originally Posted by spkb25 View Post
Well I was referencing Dude since he said do you really need to read all the negative posts. Not you. But an honest opinion is neither negative or positive. It just is an opinion. No adjective needed.

Here is good article for you to read and anyone on the board. It puts to rest the idea that this game sits inside some vacuum. It is just another piece of data. I have no idea what to expect from this team, but we don't look much different. And until they prove to me otherwise we are 0-1 and look poor in many aspects of football right now. We look like the same bad team we have been. I hope we aren't. I hope we run off 3 or 4 straight wins. All I want to do is get back to winning. It has been far too long and I am tired of watching this garbage Sean puts on TV every Sunday

Wasn't this season supposed to be different for the Saints? | NOLA.com
This excerpt pretty much summed it up "Rudderless Group"

The Saints' offense started with an efficient, effective balanced attack against a stout Vikings defense. It transformed into a rudderless group struggling to move the football once right tackle Zach Strief exited with a knee injury.
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