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WhoDat 04-07-2005 10:23 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Jake Delhomme was able to lead his team to the super bowl and he won three playoff games.

Aaron Brooks, well ....... let's just say he hasn't done as well as Delhomme in the playoffs (or getting to them).

Both the Saints and Panthers never had great offensive lines (which we know is the most important thing - just ask Billy what the key to the Saints' success is this season), but Delhomme still led his team to the promised land. IN HIS FIRST YEAR !!

Why can't Brokos do what Delhomme did?

Let me hear it folks?

[Edited on 7/4/2005 by WhoDat]

LKelley67 04-07-2005 10:43 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
cuz he is in his 5th year as a starter.

LKelley67 04-07-2005 10:50 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
note: brooks could reach the all time nfl record for fumbles if he maintains his 13 a season avg for 8 more years.

that inspired me whodat, gotta put a 2012 thread...



FireVenturi 04-07-2005 11:04 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

Jake Delhomme was able to lead his team to the super bowl and he won three playoff games.

Aaron Brooks, well ....... let\'s just say he hasn\'t done as well as Delhomme in the playoffs (or getting to them).

Both the Saints and Panthers never had great offensive lines (which we know is the most important thing - just ask Billy what the key to the Saints\' success is this season), but Delhomme still led his team to the promised land. IN HIS FIRST YEAR !!

Why can\'t Brokos do what Delhomme did?

Let me hear it folks?
Because Brooks didn\'t have a top 5 rated Defense like Jake did

ScottyRo 04-07-2005 11:08 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Who cares what Jake Mexico has done?

The simple question about Jake is really: Does what he did in helping the Panthers reach the superbowl really give you a reason to believe he can do it again?

My answer is no. I watched too many Panthers games that year and saw Jake throw way too many desparation passes. He was just lucky enough to have the WR make the catch rather than the DB. Jake didn\'t show me anything that\'d make me think he\'s capable of leading a team to the playoffs.

That year they went to the superbowl there were three or four regular season games in which the Panthers should have lost except for bad calls by referees. One each against the Saints, Vikings and Colts. I think there was also the Bucs or Falcons in that should have beaten the Panthers another time if not for bad refereeing.

Comparing AB and Jake is as pointless as showing Montana\'s SB record and stating that at this point that JakeMexico is worthless based on that alone.

FireVenturi 04-07-2005 11:15 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Agree totally with Scotty

WhoDat 04-07-2005 11:28 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

Comparing AB and Jake is as pointless as showing Montana\'s SB record and stating that at this point that JakeMexico is worthless based on that alone.
Kind of like comparing Warner to Manning huh? I know that Scotty, it\'s a joke... punk! ;)

ScottyRo 04-07-2005 11:31 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
punk?????????
punk?????????
:burning:
:killtard:

saintfan 04-07-2005 11:45 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

My answer is no. I watched too many Panthers games that year and saw Jake throw way too many desparation passes. He was just lucky enough to have the WR make the catch rather than the DB. Jake didn\'t show me anything that\'d make me think he\'s capable of leading a team to the playoffs.
And I thought me and Billy were the only two people on the planet with this opinion. Now I know there are at least 3 people living in the real world. Thank you Scotty...thank you very much.

:yourock:

FireVenturi 04-07-2005 11:48 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

Quote:

My answer is no. I watched too many Panthers games that year and saw Jake throw way too many desparation passes. He was just lucky enough to have the WR make the catch rather than the DB. Jake didn\'t show me anything that\'d make me think he\'s capable of leading a team to the playoffs.
And I thought me and Billy were the only two people on the planet with this opinion. Now I know there are at least 3 people living in the real world. Thank you Scotty...thank you very much.

:yourock:
Make that 4!!!

GoldenTomb 04-07-2005 11:55 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Great response thread...shows that there is no reason in comparing QBs with no common circumstances and situations.

Why don\'t we just wait and see if Brooks will do HIS job and be the great QB he says he is. With him being a 5th year starter now, I guess that\'s enough time for things to gel, right? :casstet:

xan 04-07-2005 12:06 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
The laws of physics dictate that the more things stay the same, the more things stay the same. Without any kind of nukular device stuffed in Brooks\' arse, nothing will change for the offense. He\'s not getting any smarter, he\'s not getting any faster, he\'s not getting any competition.

What characteristics does one point to from the last several years that would indicate that Brooks is improving?

LKelley67 04-07-2005 12:11 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
progress? the fumble drills in practice have been quite effective. he is recovering a lot more of them.

SaintFanInATLHELL 04-07-2005 12:46 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Whodat.

Why, why, WHY?! are you torturing us?

Couldn\'t you stir up some other hornet\'s nest?

Please?!

BTW what are the defensive ranks of the teams in question in the years in question?

SFIAH

WhoDat 04-07-2005 02:23 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

Jake didn\'t show me anything that\'d make me think he\'s capable of leading a team to the playoffs.
I have to disagree with that statement wholeheartedly, not that it\'s a surprise to anyone. I\'m not suggesting that Delhomme, certainly not at this point in his career, is anything of a game-breaker. Yes, he will need a good running game and defense to make it back to a SB. However, he is fulfilling the role that the Panthers\' ask him to, exactly how they ask.

Most people say that if the defense were just average then AB would be good enough, right? What happened two years ago when the defense finished 18th and Deuce was 1st in the NFC in rushing most of the year? Oh, I remember. AB led the league in fumbles lost. That\'s right.

Let\'s set aside the fact that Delhomme is fiery and more likeable, that he is the underdog scratching and clawing and giving it everything he\'s got just to be in the league, let alone start - as compared to an extremely gifted QB who seems content to be one of the most inconsistent QBs in the league so long as people (e.g. HIM) call him great. Put that aside for a second.

Want to know the difference?

Jake Delhomme\'s numbers from his first year as a starter to his second:
His completion percentage was essentially the same and his Yards, YPA, TD:INT ratio, big plays, and QB rating all improved drastically. Just so there\'s no questions:

Year, Yards, YPA, TD:INT, 20+, QB RAting
2003, 3219, 7.17, 19:16, 46, 80.6
2004, 3886, 7.29, 29:15, 60, 87.3

You know what that is? It\'s IMPROVEMENT - despite a 4th string RB, a worse and more injury battered o-line, a receving corp no more talented in \'04 than the Saints\', and a team that started 1-7.


Compare that to AB\'s first to years.

Year, Yards, YPA, TD:INT, 20+, QB RAting
2001, 3832, 6.87, 26:22, 55, 76.4
2002, 3572, 6.77, 27:15, 47, 80.1

Bottom line: AB regressed in his second year in as many categories as he improved. Yards: down. YPA: down. Big plays: down. But hey, let\'s look at where AB is FIVE YEARS after taking the starting role.

2004, 3810, 7.03, 21:16, 57, 79.5

Where is he now? About where he STARTED. NO PROGRESS.

But hey just consider.

Delhomme\'s total yards in 2004 (his second year): More than AB EVER
Delhomme\'s YPA in 2004: Better than AB EVER
Delhomme\'s TD:INT ration in 2004 (nearly 2:1): Better than AB EVER.
Delhomme\'s total TDs in 2004: More than AB EVER
Delhomme\'s 20+ yard Comps in 2004: More than AB EVER
Delhomme\'s total INTs in 2004: Ties AB\'s second best year EVER.
Delhomme\'s QB rating in 2004: 1.5 points behind AB\'s best EVER.
Delhomme\'s career QB rating: Better than AB\'s
Delhomme\'s winning percentage as a starter: Better than AB\'s.
Delhomme\'s playoff victories: Better than AB\'s.
Delhomme\'s Super Bowl appearances: 17 trillion times more than AB\'s (pick any number you want - anything time zero is zero).


Oh, but AB threw so many passes this year that\'s not fair - AB attempts in 2004, 542. Delhomme - 533. AB threw NINE more passes. Injured or not would you rather be handing off to McAllister or even Stecker... or Nick frickin\' Goings???


The bottom line is that Jake Delhomme is already a better QB right now than AB has EVER been, and we all know that Jake is far less talented. Throw the intangibles back in and who would you prefer? The fiery leader who is overachieving and performing better or the egotistical athlete who has had EVERY opportunity possibly imaginable handed to him on a plate and still can\'t perform to the standards of a guy generally considered to be the new version of Trent Dilfer?

GoldenTomb 04-07-2005 02:32 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
No but see WhoDat...the Defense caused AB\'s numbers to be lower. And besides, being on a great team makes his numbers better. If AB, being a great QB, was on the Panthers, a great team, his numbers would be much better. :icon_eyesroll:

natedogg02 04-07-2005 03:43 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Yea some people are just AB haters, I dont see how anyone that\'s been a NO fan since AB has been here, thinks he\'s the reason we\'ve failed. Sure he has his time\'s to but, heck bad things happen when your D sucks so bad, your WR\'s drop 2 or 3 passes a piece per game, there\'s 2 or 3 dt\'s or lb\'s hiting you from all angle\'s, I think most of his mistake\'s are when were getting our butt\'s kicked so bad, and he\'s just trying to make something happen. The Panthers were just ckicking in all 3 phases that year and thats something we fail to do. There\'s always at least 1 phase of our game that fails to show up (usually our D). You see what happened the last 4 games when the D started to make a few plays.

saintfan 04-07-2005 04:13 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

You see what happened the last 4 games when the D started to make a few plays
Well, I see that, but it\'s far too obvious and it doesn\'t fit the agenda. ;)

natedogg02 04-07-2005 04:22 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
It does fit cause i\'m telling why JD went to SB and why AB hasn\'t yet. and that quote was saying that AB can win just like JD when the whole team shows up.

Danno 04-07-2005 04:30 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

Jake Delhomme was able to lead his team to the super bowl and he won three playoff games.

Aaron Brooks, well ....... let\'s just say he hasn\'t done as well as Delhomme in the playoffs (or getting to them).

Both the Saints and Panthers never had great offensive lines (which we know is the most important thing - just ask Billy what the key to the Saints\' success is this season), but Delhomme still led his team to the promised land. IN HIS FIRST YEAR !!

Why can\'t Brokos do what Delhomme did?

Let me hear it folks?

[Edited on 7/4/2005 by WhoDat]
Using that same linear logic it can also be said that...
Steven Davis is better than Deuce McAllister
and
Muhsin Muhammed is better than Joe Horn

Hmmm, actually now that I think about it, they just might be.

Tobias-Reiper 04-07-2005 04:38 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 


... I am not going to go into stats, or which defense was better, etc...

..but I\'ll say this:

Jake wanted to be a Saint all his life.

Jake was a Saint way before Brooks became one. Of course, a lot of the people who ask for full support for AB \"because AB is a Saint\", were the same people who did not show ANY support for Jake back then, even though not only HE was a Saint, but for longer time, and a local boy to boot...

... there was the \"he\'ll never be more than a clipboard holder\" crowd... then he became the Panthers starter.

... the same crowd laughed and envisioned 1-15 seasons for the Panthers... then Jake went all the way to the SB and was seconds away from winning it and being the MVP...

... it just burns some people that Jake, that \"perennial clipboard holder\", has had more success as part of the Panthers than their beloved \"top5 prototype QB\"...

... I do remember trying to have a reasonable conversation about it \"on another board\" just to be laughed at and ridiculed, because those rules of conduct don\'t apply both ways for some people in some places, but I digress...

... so good for Jake... local boy did good...

...who knows, maybe the stars will align right some day, and all the NFC teams will stink, and the Saints will make it with Brooks at QB... then the crowd can go back to gloating...



natedogg02 04-07-2005 04:57 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
you hit it on the head. JD was here for years and could\'nt break the line up. I guess that was some FO conspircey? Hey, I liked the guy I thought he was a killer back-up for AB and hated seeing him go but, If you watched any Panther game\'s you would\'ve seen it was there Defense and Running Game that got them to the SB. (not JD and his what 19 ints)

Tobias-Reiper 04-07-2005 05:29 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

you hit it on the head. JD was here for years and could\'nt break the line up. I guess that was some FO conspircey? Hey, I liked the guy I thought he was a killer back-up for AB and hated seeing him go but, If you watched any Panther game\'s you would\'ve seen it was there Defense and Running Game that got them to the SB. (not JD and his what 19 ints)
He never was given the chance in New Orleans. NEVER. Don\'t give me that old \"he couldn\'t break the starting line up\" line...

..conspircey? God bless you. Have a kleenex..

GumboBC 04-07-2005 05:53 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
To be totally honest ... Jake played better than I thought he would.

But ... Jake can\'t make all the throws. His best \"throw\" seems to be when he under throws his receivers and they come back to the ball. He has made a \"living\" throwing those passes.

But Jake is a competitor. He never gives up. I really don\'t think that was the \"key\" to their success, though.

It was a \"magical\" year for Jake and the Panthers.

I\'m looking very foward to watching Jake over the next couple of years.

Jake got a free pass for the Panthers 7-9 record this past year.

That won\'t be then case in the future.

natedogg02 04-07-2005 05:59 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
you gotta be kidding, never got a chance. You mean thru 6 years and 2 head coachs, he never got a chance? O.K. (that sounds like JD fantasy land). If he was so good, someone would\'ve seen it and gave him a shot. Panthers finally did hoping he could hand the ball to Davis and not do anything stupid and he still has thrown 15+ ints both years.

Tobias-Reiper 04-07-2005 06:09 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

you gotta be kidding, never got a chance. You mean thru 6 years and 2 head coachs, he never got a chance? O.K. (that sounds like JD fantasy land). If he was so good, someone would\'ve seen it and gave him a shot. Panthers finally did hoping he could hand the ball to Davis and not do anything stupid and he still has thrown 15+ ints both years.

..it just hurts, doesn\'t it?
:P

natedogg02 04-07-2005 06:22 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
I dont know you tell me

saintswhodi 04-07-2005 07:34 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Why is this even a discussion? Did anyone see Jake in the Superbowl, biggest game there is? While his team was giving up 32 points to NE(great D there), he was busy shredding New England. Had they won(kinda hard giving up 32 points), he would have been a Superbowl MVP. Has Ab been close to MVP of anything? Ever? At any time? Jake put up a better QB rating with half the team last year. Put AB on the Panthers last year and that 1-7 woulda been 3-13. At best. Please.

[Edited on 8/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

mutineer10 04-07-2005 07:45 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Weren\'t these discussions banned a while back? ;)

History (including, lord forbid, a severe injury to either) will tell the tale. As for my opinion, Jake\'s accomplished more in half the time. AB\'s done less with what many consider to be more talent surrounding him. He\'s older and more experienced, yet he has catching up to do.

The Panthers were only one game behind us at the bitter end of this past season. A season in which I attended the Saints vs. Panthers game at the dome, and I don\'t think I\'ve ever been more embarrassed to be a Saints fan. It\'s also true that the Panthers (with the exception of perhaps the Titans) were the most injury-plagued team of the season, yet again, ended only one game behind us.

I\'m with TR, the local boy has done good. Wish he could\'ve done it locally...

LKelley67 04-07-2005 11:36 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
yeah, JD would have been the man here if he had anything. We beez have some shrewd talent evaluators that don\'t let anybody go if they are worth anything. If there is a gem to be found they will find it too, even if no one else sees it.

FireVenturi 04-08-2005 12:19 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Who here thinks we would have been in the Sb if we would have kept Jake......I hope no one would actually believes this!!

WhoDat 04-08-2005 08:33 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

Yea some people are just AB haters, I dont see how anyone that\'s been a NO fan since AB has been here, thinks he\'s the reason we\'ve failed.
THE REASON? No. But then, NO ONE PERSON WILL EVER BE THE ONLY REASON. That said, how can you possibly argue that he hasn\'t been a contributing factor??

People want to talk about the porous defense... you\'re absolutely right, that has been the BIGGEST reason for the Saints failures of recent.

But to say that isn\'t to say that AB is not a factor at all. People want to point their finger at the o-line and WRs and suggest how inconsistent those units have played, and in the same breath suggest that the single most inconsistent player on the team is blameless. Give me a break.


Quote:

But ... Jake can\'t make all the throws. His best \"throw\" seems to be when he under throws his receivers and they come back to the ball. He has made a \"living\" throwing those passes.
Where as Brooks can make all the throws? Really? He can throw a fade well? A touch pass? You ever try and catch a football? Whose pass would you want to have coming at you? Brooks\' or Delhomme\'s?

You\'re right about one thing. AB has far more talent... a far better arm... than Delhomme. Isn\'t it disturbing then, that Delhomme completed more passes more often? Under throwing seems to work, huh Bill? How else do you explain the FACT that Delhomme had a better QB rating than Brooks?


Quote:

But Jake is a competitor. He never gives up. I really don\'t think that was the \"key\" to their success, though.
The KEY? I dunno what the KEY was b/c a lot of things influenced their success. I find it very hard to deny the impact of a QB and a leader on the rest of the team\'s attitude and play.

It\'s a coincidence that the Panthers have a QB that refuses to quit and they just happened to defy the odds last year by making the SB and again this year by roaring back from 1-7 to nearly become the first team ever to make the playoffs after starting 1-7?

It\'s a coincidence that one of the most inconsistent offenses in the league is led by one of the most inconsistent QBs?

It\'s a coincidence that the headiest and most explosive and exploitive offense in the league is led by one of the league\'s best football minds and biggest students of the game? (Colts/Manning)

It\'s a coincidence that the Bucs offense has no real identity in a year when they played musical chairs at QB?

C\'mon. To suggest that at QB - especially a 5-year starter in that offense - doesn\'t affect the team mentality just seems pretty unrealistic to me. But I\'m sure some of you can cite lots of teams whose offenses were explosive and consistent who also had a lackadasical and inconsistent QB, right? Humor me and name one.


Quote:

Jake got a free pass for the Panthers 7-9 record this past year.
A free pass? For what? Are you implying that the Panthers\' record was Jake\'s fault? What exactly do you mean by that statement?


The bottom line remains the same to me.

Do the Saints have a bigger need than improving at LB and DT? No.
Would it benefit the team to find a more consistent QB with leadership skills? Absolutely.

To deny the latter statement... well, Saintfan, would that constitute an agenda?

[Edited on 8/4/2005 by WhoDat]

saintfan 04-08-2005 09:42 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

roaring back from 1-7 to nearly become the first team ever to make the playoffs after starting 1-7?
Nearly? Really? The day you give the Saints credit for \"Nearly\" doing something is the day I turn Catholic.

WhoDat 04-08-2005 10:50 AM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
That\'s all you\'ve got? Nit-picking language and mincing words? Thought you were better than that. :(

LOL

natedogg02 04-08-2005 12:31 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
You guys call your self\'s fan\'s of NO but all ya\'ll do is put our QB down our coching staff down (Boo them before game\'s start ) every home game prob feels like road games. I get so pissed when i watch home game\'s because of that. (yea boo your team and QB) (that will give them confidence) And all you guys who are so in love with JD why don\'t you go and be panther fans

saintswhodi 04-08-2005 12:48 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
So basically nate you cheer for mediocrity and inconsistency? No matter how bad a player, or coach, or GM is, as long as they wear black and gold you love them? That\'s what I am hearing? No matter if they hold the team back or are a part of the reason this team can\'t take that step forward, you are saying they should be cheered? Ben watching sports long? Mariano Rivera got booed yesterday by Yankees fans. You know? The best closer of all time? 4 world series rings? Give me a break. If an icon like that can be booed by his own fans NOONE on this team is above getting it rained on them. Rivera can at least point to a time where he was a winner, and he still is. Noone here can do that.

baronm 04-08-2005 12:53 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

Jake Delhomme was able to lead his team to the super bowl and he won three playoff games.

Aaron Brooks, well ....... let\'s just say he hasn\'t done as well as Delhomme in the playoffs (or getting to them).

Both the Saints and Panthers never had great offensive lines (which we know is the most important thing - just ask Billy what the key to the Saints\' success is this season), but Delhomme still led his team to the promised land. IN HIS FIRST YEAR !!

Why can\'t Brokos do what Delhomme did?

Let me hear it folks?

[Edited on 7/4/2005 by WhoDat]
I all honesty..it\'s because he has job security. Jake has to play hard every week and can\'t take a play off or he will loose his job.

GoldenTomb 04-08-2005 12:57 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
I agree with whodi....besides what he said when I buy a ticket to go to the Superdome, I have the right to boo because the product I\'m paying for is substandard. It\'d be different if I could return the ticket for a refund every time Brooks or anyone else on the team stunk up the joint, but we can\'t do that. So I prefer to boo. Besides he and the other Saints are supposed to be professionals. Professionals go out there and perform no matter what the conditions are.

All they have to do is win, and they won\'t hear any more boos.

4saintspirit 04-08-2005 12:58 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

You guys call your self\'s fan\'s of NO but all ya\'ll do is put our QB down our coching staff down (Boo them before game\'s start ) every home game prob feels like road games. I get so pissed when i watch home game\'s because of that. (yea boo your team and QB) (that will give them confidence) And all you guys who are so in love with JD why don\'t you go and be panther fans
Many things to respond to here -- I pay good money for season tickets -- have had them all my life -- love the Saints -- rarely booed them in their early losing years -- wanna know why I am so likely to boo them now -- because I know they are better than the way they are playing --- because they show no passion for winning and no regret for losing (generalizing here - not all players fit that mode) Basically losing is acceptable to me as long as they put everything out every time they hit the field -- as long as they atttempt to play to their potential -- I do not see that in the last few Saints seasons -- As for Delhomme -- my only comment is that he should have had a chance to start those last few games as a Saint -- it would have been nice to see what he could have done and AB was hurt and not getting the job done. As for his play -- don\'t really care because he is not our QB -- but if you ask me is he any good I have to say yeah -- he is. Is he better than AB -- depends on the day -- AB has more physical talent that is for sure -- but if they had switched teams who is to say what would have happened -- would AB have taken the Panthers to the superbowl -- I can\'t say


baronm 04-08-2005 12:58 PM

Aaron Brooks vs. Jake Delhomme
 
Quote:

Jake Delhomme was able to lead his team to the super bowl and he won three playoff games.

Aaron Brooks, well ....... let\'s just say he hasn\'t done as well as Delhomme in the playoffs (or getting to them).

Both the Saints and Panthers never had great offensive lines (which we know is the most important thing - just ask Billy what the key to the Saints\' success is this season), but Delhomme still led his team to the promised land. IN HIS FIRST YEAR !!

Why can\'t Brokos do what Delhomme did?

Let me hear it folks?

[Edited on 7/4/2005 by WhoDat]
I all honesty..it\'s because he has job security. Jake has to play hard every week and can\'t take a play off or he will loose his job.


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