Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Ok, this just occured to me and I'm going to put it out there like an alcoholic admits alcoholism.

I have never been more confident in a Saints QB to score a TD when needed in the last 3 or 4 minutes of a game to win.

This isn't about why we needed that score or why it might have been his fault we were down. I think if people are honest with themselves they feel pretty much the same way. Never in Saints history could you expect a Saints offense to go down the field late in a game and score the winning TD or what should be the winning TD if the D could only hold the other team for a minute and a half.

Yeah, I must be ill. I'm going home for the day. (The only perk to self-employment).

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Hmmm...

He is also extremely durable. Aside from the infamous shoulder injury, he spends a lot of time getting sacked, knocked down, and scrabling around, and he has remained remarkably healthy.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Whoa.


I\'m gonna bump this just so it doesn\'t get lost in the sea of negativity here.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

The result of Kyle Turley whiffing on his assignment. Is ANYbody more Mickey Mouse than Kyle -- I like to smoke weed and I ain\'t stoppin\' -- Turley?

[Edited on 7/4/2005 by saintfan]

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

I have never been more confident in a Lions K to kick a FG when needed in the last 3 or 4 minutes of a game to win.

we need to work these things out fellas

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Well, regardless of his occassional utter embarrassments, I\'ve got to remember that AB -is- holding a lot of the Saints QB records. He\'s been the QB of the highest powered offense the Saints have ever had. I\'ve got to dremember that.

I used to hate him, wanted him gone. Now, I\'ve reconsidered, I think he\'s adequate, adequate enough to win games.

I think the focus for replacement should be put on the defense rather than on Brooks. 32nd ranked just won\'t cut it.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

You\'re right about that, no question about it. When the game gets down to it in panic mode - when game plans go out the window and essentially it\'s sandlot football, AB can shine.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

One of these days folks are going to figure you out.

So when the game is on the line it\'s \"sandlot\" football, huh?

But that\'s just for Brooks, right?

John Elway was considered a great \"leader\" when he did it.

So was Montana.

So were many many QBs.

But, ol\' WhoDat don\'t see it that way for Brooks.

Hey, WhoDat ... Was Elway and Montana playing sandlot football when they led their teams in the 4th quarter?

Give it a rest. ;)

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Saints need better quarterback evaluators ........

Other then the Mecom years , that aint sayin much .....

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

John Kasay is the best kicker the Panthers have ever had.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

You get it LOE...ive been sayin all along DEFENSE wins championships!!!!!! So can u now please remove that avatar?LOL

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Hey Billy, did Montana and Elway play like crap the other 58 minutes of the game? LOL.

When a guy plays good to great ball for 55+ minutes, and then in crunch time plays great to legendary ball - that\'s a great QB.

When a guy spends 55 minutes throwing rocket shots at his WRs feet, backpeddling into the rush, and tossing underhanded free-bes to opposing LBs from his own 10 yard line, and then in the last few minutes manages to scramble around long enough for a WR to get open... that\'s sandlot.

You\'re right though, one of these days you will get it.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

AB is a good backup QB. That\'s something positive right?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Wait...now WAIT just a minute here. Whether or not you think Brooks is poo for 58 minutes or not doesn\'t matter. We\'re talkin about the two minute drills, and even you, based on that quote above, indicate Brooks can and often does get it done, so lets leave the other 58 minutes alone and just answer the question. Montana playin sandlot ball? Elway playin sandlot ball? Farve playin sandlot ball? No? But Brooks is right? Nuff said.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Well uh....despite how poorly he has played or how badly the team is perfoming, you can always count on AB to put on a happy face for the team.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

So what\'s the opposing view? That running the 2-minute drill successfully requires a greater command of the offense, poise, and quick thinking? Is so, why could Montana, Elway, and Favre demonstrate those same skills during the other 58 minutes and AB cannot (at least not consistently)?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Yup. Teams double the only guy we\'ve got that can run a decent route. Maybe it\'s not Brooks who\'s the \"sandlot\" guy, but then that never crossed your mind huh? LOL

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

All of this is really making me laugh!

C\'mon now.....I seriously think that some turn a blind eye when it comes to Brooks.....they refuse to look at the person and just look at the numbers. Brooks has been able to put together some good late-game performances, true. How can you really say definitively either way if it is because of him or in spite of him???

With that being said, my opinion is that Brooks is a below average QB that makes questionable decisions more often than not in the pocket, whether it be fumbles, INTs, reverse passes, or overthrowing a reciever in a fade route. You have to admit that in any given situation, he is more likely to do one of the above things than complete a pass. I personally think he cannot handle a highly sophisticated NFL offense, hence the reason for dumbing down the offense.

Can anyone dispute that. I\'d be willing to bet that at the end of the game, the offensive coordinator slims down the playbook for Brooks to shine. Those hooks, slants and posts are all that you see in the last 2 minutes of a game. That\'s where Brooks excels. I don\'t know if it\'s sandlot or not but that\'s what it is. I attribute it to sensible offensive savvy from the o-coordinator. Kinda like on Any Given Sunday with Willie Beamon and Al Pacino...\"Just play like you\'re back at home in the hood\". He excels when he doesnt\' have to think.

However, to put him in the same breath as Montana and Elway is....what\'s worse than laughable????

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Who, you\'ve been replying to Billy\'s threads on AB too much cuz your insinuating more than is required by my statement. First, the two-minute drill is not sandlot football. It\'s more hurried, but plays are being called and executed. It is no more sandlot than any other time.

Second, because I am more confident that AB can lead us downfield in a two minute drill and score a TD when needed more than any other SAINTS QB does not mean that I\'m inplying that it takes a special greatness by him though it might. I don\'t care what the implications are. I was stating a simple fact about how I feel about his performance at that point in a game versus other SAINTS QBs.

LK67, you apparently don\'t agree with my assessment, but you haven\'t done anything other than mock me about it. Why isn\'t my statement a fair one to make? Tell me which Saints QB have you ever thought more able to (and demonstratively so) take his team downfield in the final minutes of a game and score a TD when needed to win?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

I don\'t think he\'s disputing what you said about having confidence in AB being the best Saints QB ever in the 2 minute drill. His opinion is accolade isn\'t saying a whole lot.

Hey Emmitt Smith is the all time leading rusher in the NFL. Doesn\'t make him the all time best RB, does it??? Far from it.

[Edited on 8/4/2005 by GoldenTomb]

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Possibly. I\'m just pointing out that if they want to debate whether or not that distinction makes AB a \"great\" QB, that shouldn\'t be attributed to me.

I\'m sure most B&G members that have read my comments on AB recognize I\'m not a basher or a lover, but it doesn\'t take too many posts like this to be labled an AB lover.

I probably should have said something more like: I\'ve never been more confident in the Saints Offense to score late in a game to win than at any other time in Saints history.

Again, when you bring up the thing like you did with Emmitt, it seems that you think a statement that I have more confidence in AB in that situation implies that he\'s great at something. I\'m not implying anything. It\'s just a statement.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

i don\'t neccesarily disagree scotty. it is more just the premise of the statement i find entertaining. we are talkin perhaps the worst franchise in nfl history that has only had one other legitimate strong qb! so he might be the best out of two in one aspect of the game. that is the humor of it to me. the panthers have never had another kicker, so damn, he is the best in their history. the point being about a narrow aspect would be more like saying, john kasay is the best onside kicker in carolina\'s history. now if you were the colts you could have some heavy handed debates about manning vs. unitas, or the 49ers with young, montana, brodie, and y.a. tittle.

so, i am not for debating the point only cuz it isn\'t much of a point with this team history. i guess it is good to find every ray of sunshine we can. as i type tho, memories of interceptions and fumbles at gut-check times, whether the last 2 minutes or not, seem to echo as well. ;)
:peace:

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

:o

So then Horn is that sandlot player and Brooks is the consumate pro???

Saintfan - I\'m starting to believe that you don\'t really even believe AB is a good QB. I can\'t remember seeing you make an affirmative statement about his play that didn\'t involve undercutting someone else. You excel at deflecting blame from AB, but you do very little to show he is deserving of credit.

I guess if it\'s all the WRs and o-line\'s fault for AB\'s shortcomings, then, one could make the argument that his successes are their doing as well. In other words, Brooks is of zero value to the team and could be replaced with no effect.

Or is it your opinion that Brooks\' teammates don\'t help him they only hurt him? And how does he affect their play? LOL.... yeah there\'s an :censored: here.

I\'m not trying to take a shot at you man, I\'m really not. But why is it when you say Brooks to \"your kind\" ;) the response you get is always immediate to talk about someone else? Can you make a case for AB based only on what AB has done? If not, what does that tell you?

IMO - no one ever doubted Archie was a great QB, and his supporting cast was muh much worse.


Scotty - please don\'t misconstrue my comments either. I never believed or suggested that your comments were meant to show you believe AB to be a great QB. Nor did I disagree. I was simply providing a REASON why I thought your statement was true.



[Edited on 8/4/2005 by WhoDat]

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

I think Brooks is FAR more than good enough, and I\'ve said it a million times. I\'ve also NEVER tried to call him GREAT -- which I\'ve been accused of a million times. I defend Brooks when people try and blame him for our D\'s inability to stop people. When they blame the QB for the D\'s inability to stop a screen, for example, I step in. When they insinuate our O-Line is better than average and blame him for the line\'s inability to block to stop making stupid mistakes I defend him. When I see our WR\'s drop perfectly catchable passes (while other\'s make excuses for why they shouldn\'t be expected to catch those passes) I defend him. All I have EVER said about AB is that he\'s good enough and then some to take the Saints all the way. I thought it then and I think it now. Give him a decent o-line, and decent running game, more than one guy that can (a) catch and (b) run routes and a defense that can stop the other team more often than not -- and all in the same year -- and yeah, I think he can perform better than most QB\'s. I don\'t harp on the stupid plays because (a) he\'s not perfect and (b) he\'s far from being the only above average (or below) QB to ever have made one. I don\'t harp on his inability to relate well to the fans and media. I don\'t think there was some great conspiracy to keep him in the lineup and keep Jake out of it. Etc, etc, but you and you\'re kind keep right on bashing the guy. We all know the QB gets too much blame AND credit...or do we?

It appears you\'ve forgotten some of those old debates. I just don\'t have the energy anymore. Some of you simply are NOT going to give Brooks the same benefit or props you\'re willing to give to other players. After all, Jake NEARLY made the playoffs last year...this is seen as a credit...the Saints won their last four and also NEARLY made the playoffs, yet you justify the spin in a thousand different ways. I\'m not the guy defending Brooks by blaming others. I\'m the guy defending Brooks when he\'s held responsible for the mistakes of others. You CAN see the difference, can\'t you?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

OK Saintfan... let\'s not talk about each other, let\'s talk about football, shall we?

I have a question for you: Aaron Brooks ranked 19th in QB rating in 2004. That is BELOW AVERAGE. You have stated that you believe some of Brooks\' troubles are results of offensive line woes and inconsistent WR play, correct?

How then do you justify these QBs performing better?

Byron Leftwich - His o-line was so-so in pass protection and his WRs aren\'t anywhere near as talented as ours. Jimmy Smith - their number one WR, didn\'t perform as well as Horn. Reggie Williams, their number two WR, did half of what Donte Stallworth did. Troy Edwards was a solid third - I\'m not sure of his numbers, but I\'d guess he was somewhere in the area of Pathon. Honestly, I don\'t know. Leftwich is younger, has less time in the system, an average o-line, and worse WRs. How could he be more efficient than Brooks?


Matt Hassleback - Matt was destroyed in the media for his inconsistency this year, and rightly so. His WRs may be more talented than the Saints, but they led the league in drops - the thing you accuse of WRs of doing all the time. In games I watched of the Seahawks I sw a lot of blitzing, which their o-line didn\'t handle well. Hassleback\'s performance wasn\'t exactly great. But he put up a better QB rating - what gives?

Here are the two really damning ones:

David Carr - David Carr? Seriously? AB couldn\'t be more efficient that David Carr? The Texans two biggest problem areas are offensive line and WR. They certainly don\'t have a Deuce in their backfield either. Carr is younger and on an expansion team - how did this guy outperform Brooks?

Kurt Warner - Seriously, was there a worse o-line in the league last year than the Giants\'? And is there a worse QB to deal with pressure than Kurt Warner? I reemed Warner early in the season for his boneheaded plays. I laughed when NY signed him and knew he\'d be killed behind that line. When he got pulled I thought it was well deserved... how in the hell did he manage to have a better QB rating that Aaron Brooks?

Other notables - Brian Greese was almost 30 points better than AB this season. Jake Delhomme, Billy Volek, Jake Plummer, Marc Bulger...



How do you reconcile this type of information with your assertion that AB suffers BECAUSE of the o-line and WRs? Or is AB as much at fault as they are?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

im not going to argue over whether or not brooks is good. but he does have a lot of comebacks for us. he also has some bonehead plays to. he has all the potential in the world. i hope it all comes together for the whole team next year

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

I see now you\'re stuck on QB rating. Is that the Stat you like these days? Surely you\'re aware of the fact that the QB rating has much to do with things out of the control of the QB. You DO realize that don\'t you? I like Billy\'s post from another thread regarding this QB rating...

I love how you pick a stat and then try and prove how sorry Brooks is due to it...you\'ve tried that before...last time you gave up and started moanin\' about his salary. Look man, I realize you think Brooks is the main reason the Saints haven\'t gone undefeated, and I disagree based on the poor play of LOTS of people on the team...you just like to focus on Brooks. Carry on man.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

The Saintfan shuffle ..... ;)


Leadership has its advantages ...... ;)

Sure , I love those comebacks . Brooks spends 3 quarters throwing the ball in the turf and fumbling it and then wakes up and leads a drive or two .

Sure you wont have the balls to touch this one .....

Drew Brees 2003 rating 67.5
Drew Brees 2004 rating 104.8

Brees pulls his head out in a contract year and the team goes from worst to first based upon it . That behind a make shift front line and a good runningback .

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

So in other words, no, you cannot justify how those other bad QBs with bad o-lines and WRs played better football than Aaron Brooks. That\'s what I thought.



And Billy\'s thread further proves the myopia with which the two of you seem to address this discussion. Never did I say that QB rating is a magic stat that translates into a trip to the Super Bowl. This is a classic misapplication of statistics, b/c Billy doesn\'t understand how to use them and you just piggyback that.

What\'s funny is that when I criticize Brooks, you guys point at every other player on the team. You argue that I say that AB is the only problem with the team, which I am not suggesting in any way shape or form. You cannot argue that he is a problem and you cannot make a case for him being even average. You can say he is, but neither of you have ever made an argument that didn\'t include cutting down other players to get there.

So when I use your own BS \"it\'s the line and WR\'s fault\" logic to show younger, less pampered, and less experienced QBs with worse o-line\'s and worse WRs on worse teams can have better QB ratings, what do you do?

Billy uses QB rating to suggest that the QB is the only reason a team makes the Super Bowl. Never did I suggest that - but it\'s funny that Billy is totally contradicting your, it\'s everyone else\'s fault argument to focus only on the QB. No, I just showed that AB is a below average QB - and you did nothing to disprove it.. b/c neither of you can.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

How can a below average QB set so many Saints QB records or be on the verge thereof?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

This is pretty much what it boils down to eh? Yes, I absolutely think the line and our WR\'s contribute greatly to a lot of the stuff you guys wanna blame on Brooks. This is precisely what I think. I can\'t understand how you and a handful of others could possibly disagree.


I\'m not convinced that their QB rating indicates they\'ve played better football. Frankly, the QB rating has much to do with things out of the control of the QB. This fact is why most NFL QB\'s aren\'t very fond on the \"rating\" stat.

I see the QB rating as a team stat really, but I\'m sure you disagree.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

1. The best RB in Saints history.
2. The best WR in Saints history.
3. The only WR tandem to both have 1000 yards in a season.
4. The most explosive WR corp in Saints history.
5. The most open and exciting offensive scheme in Saints history.
6. The worst defense in Saints history (thus, more catch up).
7. The pass-happy mentality of the league now with the most strict and WR-friendly interference rules ever.

Is that enough?

Jim Everett holds a lot of Saints records. Was he the great QB that AB is (at least if you ask AB, Billy, or Saintfan)??

[Edited on 9/4/2005 by WhoDat]

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Deuce is not the best RB in Saints\' history. Not yet anyway.

I personally think Dalton Hillard was better than Deuce. Before Dalton got injured he was right up there with the best in the NFL during his time with the Saints.

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

I guess I\'m just dumb, but I can\'t understand how a WR corp can be considered \"explosive\", \"the best in Saints history,\" and be \"the only WR tandem\" with 1,000 yards without giving the QB credit for those accomplishments as well. Can a below average QB really make the WRs look better than himself?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Uh, yeah I disagree. While I have never suggested to you that the o-line and WRs do not affect AB, you have refused to suggest that his often poor and inconsistent play affects them.

Bottom line - no single position affects the offense as a whole more than the QB.

You say that the QB rating is meaningless - why then do all the great have such good QB ratings? Even the ones who played on bad teams? Mind you, there are exceptions to every rule, but for the most part, QB rating is a good measure of how well a QB played.

For example - the five best QB ratings this year were
Peyton Manning
Daunte Culpepper
Drew Brees
Donovan McNabb
Ben Roethlisberger

Can you honestly say that these guys aren\'t the 5 QBs who played the best ball last season? Really? Maybe one is sixth or seventh, but the point is, they played well. Did their teams affect them? of course! But were the Vikings 15 spots better as a team than the Saints? C\'mon.

QB rating matters - it shows a QB\'s efficiency. You want to blame AB\'s low efficiency on the rest of the team. I want to blame it on him. Do you think AB\'s numbers would have been better or worse if he played in ATL, CAR, or TB?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

So players can\'t succeed and show their value despite a bad team? Tell that to LaDanian Tomlinson.

If Peyton Manning got hurt this year, would it be hard for you to tell that the Colts WRs are explosive?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

All I know about Everett is that he was Ditka\'s first and possibly worst roster mistake. That year we went and 6-10 with HEATH SHULER, possibly the worst starting QB ever for the saints.

Ah, the good ole days when we only dreamed about being 8-8. ;)

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

WhoDat --

Man, I just don\'t get the statements you make!!

I agree, no \"single\" position affects the offense as much as the QB.

But get this, WhoDat.

No \"single\" position on the offense is affected more by other players than the QB!

Do you understand that?

Something Positive about Brooks. I must be insane.
 

Why am I not surprised.


This couldn\'t be more inaccurate. I do not refuse. What I do is point out, for example, that a pass doesn\'t have to be perfectly thrown to make it catchable. You, however, do seem to suggested that Brooks is the primary reason our team hasn\'t performed up to expectations.

Nope. This isn\'t true. What I DO say is the QB rating is the result of things often out of the control of the QB. An example of this would be a catchable pass dropped by a WR. Does Brooks throw some bad passes. Of course. Does he throw passes that should be caught but are dropped? Well, I think he does. Once again I\'m sure you\'d disagree.

The big difference between you and me, Whodat, is that you want to blame it ALL on him and I think the blame should get passed around to ALL those responsible.