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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; if someone has the precise numbers on sully available please post. cap impact keeping and letting go, now, after june 15, or after the season. if he can crack the lineup and contribute something it might be better capwise. if ...

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Old 04-11-2005, 10:52 AM   #11
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Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz

if someone has the precise numbers on sully available please post. cap impact keeping and letting go, now, after june 15, or after the season.

if he can crack the lineup and contribute something it might be better capwise. if he still is a no-show performance-wise it is still X million for nothing whether he is there or not. in the second scenario cutting makes a better statement for who you are as a team also.
-------------------

back to howard...

The Raiders are so hurting to free up additional cap space that they\'ve already had quarterback Kerry Collins restructure his contract twice! Collins understandably is not taking any more calls from the Raiders.

Oakland is still desperate to unload cornerback Charles Woodson, who\'s due to make more than $10 million this season, and, sources tell The Post, the club is willing to take less than the two No. 1 picks required to sign a franchise player.

\"At this point, we\'d probably take a one and a five or a seven,\" one front-office member said. \"We\'re hoping to get something done before camp.\"

(yesterday)http://www.nypost.com/sports/44256.htm

IF n.o. could come to a workable contract with him it seems workable. that is a big IF though. howard has expressed his preference for dallas too and would demand a little more from big al. woodson\'s mo as a trouble making prima donna is a solid negative too. with what they are saying as woodson value then players straight across with oakland giving a 2nd would seem like a decent exchange.

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Old 04-11-2005, 10:58 AM   #12
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Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz

The problem with getting woodson is that he\'s going to want 10 mil. He might take as little as 8, but that\'s a ton when we\'re also going to have to pay MM at least 5, but probably 7 or 8. That\'d make 16 - 18 million on 2 players at cb. Plus, all the other players haven\'t been paid yet.

I\'d rather have PB at less money or preferrably draft picks which are cheaper early on.
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:03 AM   #13
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No one here can tell me Sully doesn\'t have the talent to succeed. That hasn\'t been the problem. If Sully didn\'t have the talent to get it done, then I\'d say goodbye.
First, define succeed. Second, I don\'t think he has the talent to succeed, nor the desire. He doesn\'t want those checks to stop by being cut, so he makes some promises and minimal effort. And how do we know that someone rated as the 5th or 6th best DT in his draft does have the talent to succeed? But what are we looking for? Are we looking for him to be dominant verses the run, or to get sacks? Or do we just want him to lay in the hole and occupy two guys? What are we looking for to term \"success?\" A trip to the pro bowl? What? I think it was very well agreed he will never live up to being picked 6th in the draft and having two firsts traded to get him, so in my mind since he was picked 6th in the draft he does not have the talent to succeed as a 6th pick in the draft. Had we picked him at 17 or 18 where we were I might feel slightly different, but he has been a waste thus far.
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:03 AM   #14
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Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz

While we\'re on the subject of the Raiders\' CBs ....

Raiders | Hill Signing Coming Soon - from www.KFFL.com
Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:45:32 -0700

Mike Jurecki, of XTRA Sports 910, reports free agent CB Renaldo Hill (Cardinals) will sign a one-year deal with the Oakland Raiders Monday, April 11, pending a physical.
It sure looks the Raiders are intent on getting rid of one of their current CBs.
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:05 AM   #15
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oops, didn\'t see those numbers when i posted...

makes ya sick doesn\'t it? that precisely shows how completely blowing a #6 pick can impact a team for several years. that ongoing cap can haunt ya. i cannot imagine running the the titans and having to pay 20% of your team cap to players no longer even on the team!

***************************************

how bout a howard phase two discussion- first lay out all the likely destinations then vote on the likelihood.

DALLAS--draft picks
-----------dat with draft picks

OAKLAND--draft picks
--------------buchannon with picks
--------------woodson with picks

MINNESOTA--draft picks
-----------------donatarrious thomas (on the bench now) and picks

SEATTLE--draft picks

WASHINGTON--draft picks

>>>>others?
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:07 AM   #16
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No one here can tell me Sully doesn\'t have the talent to succeed. That hasn\'t been the problem. If Sully didn\'t have the talent to get it done, then I\'d say goodbye.
First, define succeed. Second, I don\'t think he has the talent to succeed, nor the desire. He doesn\'t want those checks to stop by being cut, so he makes some promises and minimal effort. And how do we know that someone rated as the 5th or 6th best DT in his draft does have the talent to succeed? But what are we looking for? Are we looking for him to be dominant verses the run, or to get sacks? Or do we just want him to lay in the hole and occupy two guys? What are we looking for to term \"success?\" A trip to the pro bowl? What? I think it was very well agreed he will never live up to being picked 6th in the draft and having two firsts traded to get him, so in my mind since he was picked 6th in the draft he does not have the talent to succeed as a 6th pick in the draft. Had we picked him at 17 or 18 where we were I might feel slightly different, but he has been a waste thus far.
saintwhodi --

So, Sully was the 6th pick in the draft. You seem to hold grudges against certain players.

I could give a damn if Sully was the 1st pick in the draft. Sully didn\'t control where he was picked.

Furthermore, if Sully can help the run defense stop the bleeding and be respectable, then I will be the biggest Sully fan there is.

While he MIGHT not ever live up to being the 6th overall pick, maybe he can be a better than average DT that can help this defense get to where it needs to be.

I don\'t like what Sully has done. But I hold no grudges.
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:15 AM   #17
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What grudge do I seem to be holding? Cause I don\'t like a fat lazy DT who stole money the past two years and seemed okay with that? God forbid I should want a return on the investment of two firsts and a sixth round pick. I guess the Saints held a grudge against Tesucky by cutting him cause he didn\'t live up to expectations. Come on man. Don\'t hide behind saying anyone has grudges cause you have no answer and you are basing your hopes 100000000000% on pure speculation on whether Sully will amount to anything, while the past two years has shown us exactly who he is. If sully told you he could walk a tight rope 1000 feet above the ground for Ringling Brothers would you believe that too?
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:20 AM   #18
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What grudge do I seem to be holding? Cause I don\'t like a fat lazy DT who stole money the past two years and seemed okay with that? God forbid I should want a return on the investment of two firsts and a sixth round pick. I guess the Saints held a grudge against Tesucky by cutting him cause he didn\'t live up to expectations. Come on man. Don\'t hide behind saying anyone has grudges cause you have no answer and you are basing your hopes 100000000000% on pure speculation on whether Sully will amount to anything, while the past two years has shown us exactly who he is. If sully told you he could walk a tight rope 1000 feet above the ground for Ringling Brothers would you believe that too?
Nah, you don\'t hold grudges. You just ooze hate out anytime you talk about Sully.

You\'re right about one thing, though. The only thing I have is HOPE when it comes to Sully.

Just like I had for Donte\' Stallworth when he could never stay on the field in his first two years.

NO ONE likes what Sully has done since he\'s been a Saint.

But your HOT-HEADED opinions are not what I base my decisions on.
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:22 AM   #19
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No one here can tell me Sully doesn\'t have the talent to succeed. That hasn\'t been the problem. If Sully didn\'t have the talent to get it done, then I\'d say goodbye. But sometimes you have to take more chances with guys like Sully
billy, i have nothing against the guy except that his actions have indicated not having the heart or desire to succeed- no matter what talent level there is or isn\'t. he has been a flat out embarrassment to the franchise.

as far as his talent i have seen NOTHING to indicate he has that either. two years of opportunity and he cannot make the active roster! he cannot outplay street free agents for gawd sake. my humble opinion is exactly opposite of yours- the team has already given him millions of dollars worth of chances. you don\'t pamper or cater to that sort of pathetic response to the chances (unless you have randy moss/woodson kinda talent, then teams bear with it as long as they can). if you have to keep him a year for cap reasons use him as a blocking dummy in practice until he files a grievance or shows some sign of football life.
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:28 AM   #20
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Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz

No one here can tell me Sully doesn\'t have the talent to succeed. That hasn\'t been the problem. If Sully didn\'t have the talent to get it done, then I\'d say goodbye. But sometimes you have to take more chances with guys like Sully
billy, i have nothing against the guy except that his actions have indicated not having the heart or desire to succeed- no matter what talent level there is or isn\'t. he has been a flat out embarrassment to the franchise.

as far as his talent i have seen NOTHING to indicate he has that either. two years of opportunity and he cannot make the active roster! he cannot outplay street free agents for gawd sake. my humble opinion is exactly opposite of yours- the team has already given him millions of dollars worth of chances. you don\'t pamper or cater to that sort of pathetic response to the chances (unless you have randy moss/woodson kinda talent, then teams bear with it as long as they can). if you have to keep him a year for cap reasons use him as a blocking dummy in practice until he files a grievance or shows some sign of football life.
Again ... Sully was not benched because he didn\'t have the talent. He was benched because of his attitude and work-ethic.

Grady Jackson got shipped off to Green Bay. Why? It wasn\'t because of a lack of talent. It was because of work-ethic and attitude.

Has Sully shown he has world-class talent? No, but he didn\'t exactly see the field last year, either. And rookie DTs almost always struggle.

Like I said, no one can tell me Sully doesn\'t have the talent.

And I can\'t say he does.

But Sully wasn\'t picked in the 1st round of the draft because he was some bum off the street. Regardless of popular opinion.

The only thing I\'m saying is ... the kid is widely regarded as being a tredmendous athelete as a DT. But his immature attitude has set him back.

If he\'s the same old Sully, then we cut our losses.
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