oakland ups ante for howard
 

sportsweekly

which in my opinion-is an upgrade over the two cornerbacks. think of this-if we got that and then could trade our first and second for howard..we'd still be with a frist and second...and better players.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Not doubting you, but is there a link for this so I can read the whole story, or is it something you need a subscription for?

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Don\'t got a link-sorry-gonna go after work and get the whole article...it\'s in sportsweekly..apparently according to another forum...

sorry, I usually don\'t like to post anything without a link..

oakland ups ante for howard
 

ya, link me. i don\'t quite get your comment either. could ya be splain it one more time plz?

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I\'m not even close to understanding what you are trying to say.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Take the 2nd is what i say. We dont need trouble like CW and i dont think PB is that great anyway. (horn has his way with them last year). We can get a young CB in draft that will prob have a better attitude then both of them.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

right now we have the 16 and the 40--if we get the raiders pick at 38, we trade our 16 and 40 for say the 6th then we have the 6th adn 38-which could get us better players than the 16 and 40...

oakland ups ante for howard
 

oooooooooh, otay. gotcha. like dj AND ruud or webster or castillo.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

excatly--

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I don\'t wanna sound pessimistic because I really do want to see the FO make a great move like that to get us the 6 and 38... but what do y\'all think are the chances of us making a move like that?

oakland ups ante for howard
 

slim-somehow I think we are eeither going to score great in this draft or blow it big...one of the two...

oakland ups ante for howard
 

they have showed the chutzpah to move up before. LB is an incredible glaring need and there is only one sure-thing strong playmaker. we have heard nada even from the rumor mill to indicate this might be a possibility tho.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

which means it could happen or they haven\'t thought of it...

oakland ups ante for howard
 

slim and none :nono:

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I don\'t get it. Why accept the #38 overall, which would be completely speculative about who we got and what kind of player he\'d be, when Howard was drafted like #33 overall and is now a proven double digit sacker? Is he worth less now than when he was drafted?

Maybe I\'m missing something, but I think Oakland\'s got to throw in more than one measly 2nd round pick.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I think one measely high second round pick is worth it for a guy that was gonna walk for nothing. And a guy who is playing a position we happen to be pretty well stocked for starters in. And a guy who is counting 7.8 mil against our current cap. I have no problem with that deal at all. Edge James was taken in the first round and not he may be traded for a second round pick. That\'s the reality of today\'s NFL unfortunately.

[Edited on 13/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

oakland ups ante for howard
 

About Castillo, he has admitted to using steriods. So all the talk about us even considering is now poop. Big risk of him being tested positive and missing games. I\'ll pass.

I agree that this isn\'t upping the ante. I rather have Buchanon for Howard then just a 2nd rounder. At least Buchanon has already proved to be a quality corner. Buchanon and a third or fourth sounds better. Heck just make it 1 for 1. I mean Howard\'s cap charge is a lot.

[Edited on 13/4/2005 by papz]

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I can\'t find anywhere that says the Radiers have offered us anything.

Can anyone cofirm the Raiders\' offer?

Thanks ..

oakland ups ante for howard
 

We were gonna get nothing for him initially, so how is getting a high second rounder, which it has been thoroughly argued here could be a quality player at a position we really need, not good enough? We need to free up the money. We need to get something for him. We aren\'t getting a first rounder so how is a high secodn rounder not good in some way? Especially if it may give us the freedom to move up for DJ, which otherwise we pretty much have no shot at. Like I said, Edge James was a first round pick, thinking anyoen is giving up a first to get him? Not likely. If Howard was under contract at a reasonable salary, this would be a definite no. But since he isn\'t, getting something is better than getting nothing at all.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I agree with u whodi, we could trade our 1st, 2nd and 4th to Tenn for the 6th overall and still have a 1,2,3,5,6,7

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Didn\'t he sign the tender? If he did that puts him under contract. To say that we were gonna get nothing for him is unbased. We always had the ability to place the franchise tag on him just like we did. Only stupidity would have let him walk for no compensation.

My point is just that were giving up a proven1st round quality player for a second round pick which by nature is speculative.

Besides simple player for player considerations, I can see where the deal is better because it helps so much (salary, DE being full), I\'m just not understanding how Gallaway can be worth 2 1st rounders, but D. Howard and E James are worth only one 2nd.

That is, if there is any truth to the rumor.

[Edited on 13/4/2005 by ScottyRo]

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Cause the Galloway trade was ridiculously dumb, and teams aren\'t that stupid when it comes to draft picks any more. Did you see what the Boys got for Herschel Walker when they traded him to Minnesota? A buttload of draft picks Minny just threw at them. The draft is a different animal now, and more value is placed on draft picks because of what they are, cheap labor. And if a guy comes in and produces at this cheaper salary, all the better. How is it that Galloway went for two firsts yet Moss goes for one? That alone should tell you how much the value on draft picks have changed.

Also, hate to keep beating this drum, but Edge James is a pro bowl first round pick RB, and he is gonna be traded for less than a first. As well as Shaun Alexander. Do teams place more value on picks than they should? Probably. But that market is what dictates a players price, not an I feel like he is worth such and such notion. Gerard Warren was a first round pick and he got traded for a 4th. Where a player is picked previously has nothing to do with his worth as a trade for picks now. Howard\'s value on the market is a second, and we would be getting a high one at that. We tagged him with the intent of trading him. The team knew it wasn\'t gonna get a first rounder, hell their first offers was for a second only and then they got greedy with Dallas and wanted Dat too. If this is the deal they are presented, they take it. Sure they could try to scrape by playign hardball and trying to keep him, but that is not in the best interest of the team. Other teams know our cap situation as well as we do. It\'s a good trade.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I\'d be delighted with the trade. Howard doesn\'t really fit a pressing need anymore, no to mention he has struggled with injuries the past couple of years. We have Will Smith (cheaper and younger) waiting on the sideline, and a number of needs that trading Howard could undeniably help meet. We\'ve simply gotta free up some cap room in order to sign our upcoming draft picks.

It seems to make sense for the Raiders as well. They had virtually no significant pass rush last year, and (similar to us) few playmakers in their defensive front seven. It would be sensible for them to give up a 2nd rounder for a proven DE, a position that usually demands a stiffer premium (think Grant Wistrom and Jevon Kearse last offseason).

Assuming this rumor holds any truth, the Saints should be stongly considering it...

oakland ups ante for howard
 

1. sorry I didn\'t post a linka nd for a rumor without a link.
2. There probably is a shred of truth to it...though as for right now it is a rumor.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Call Dallas and tell JJ that we got the #38 for Howard and see if he blinks and gives us his 2nd rounder and DAT. It\'s worth a shot, if the story is true.

If he does\'nt blink take #38 and say bye, bye to Howard.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

rumor confirmed-it\'s in this weeks sportsweekly. DOn\' tknow how valid there info is..but usually they are the last to print things.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Scotty - I agree completely. I\'ve never understood it myself. Why do teams always go after trades involving picks for proven players? Assuming age isn\'t a big factor, which it isn\'t with Howard, that just doesn\'t make sense to me.

People on this board prefer a draft pick to Buchannon or Woodson. Why? The Saints might draft another CB of the quality of about McKenzie in the 2nd. Or they might draft another JeRod Cherry.

The only reasons I can come up with are money and New England.

Money becomes an issue because every 4 year starter in the NFL now thinks he deserves huge money, and fights for it. You just can\'t keep signing guys like that. Maybe you could sign 22 guys, but your depth would be horrendous. It also doesn\'t make sense for an owner. Pay a few stars to put butts in the seats, and then try to surround those stars with guys good enough to make your team look decent.

The New England factor is something that I think has subtly effected the whole league. Teams now seem to like \"role\" players. Guys who are good, not great, who can play their part real well. I think New England has done this better than anyone since the FA era. Now the idea seems to be - why pay an A player A money when you can pay two or three B to C players half as much total to fill three spots and maybe one of them develops into an A player (at which time you let him leave through FA b/c he will have become too expensive and you go and find another B or C player to replace him).

I\'m not sure whether it\'s a good strategy or not. I think it has failed in New Orleans because in the past, the Saints could have significantly upgaded the overall play of the team by adding a few stud players, instead of adding depth through youth across the board.

[Edited on 15/4/2005 by WhoDat]

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Howard is precisely the kind of player you were just talking about. He wants big money, and deserves it. However it doesn\'t make sense to pay for 3 first round caliber players when only two of them can play on the field at any given time. It\'s inefficient spending to pay a guy $7.8 mil and have him rotating. For a change, I think the Saints are doing the right thing. Since we already have someone in-house who is younger, cheaper, and has more potential than Howard, I think it\'s time to send him on his way. And I am of the belief that they intend to get rid of him no matter what, and it\'s been that way since they drafted Will Smith.

In our unique case, it makes sense to part ways with him and build on other areas that are not as strong as the DE spot. Why fortify an already strong area when we are so weak in others???

[Edited on 15/4/2005 by GoldenTomb]

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Exactly GT. Exactly. How many times must the same thing be said? :casstet: Howard has to go, we are not gonna get a first for him, so a high second seems just fine. Terrell Owens was traded for a 5th and Brandon Whiting. Is Howard a better player than Owens? James can\'t get a first rounder, Alexander can\'t fet a first rounder, hell Travis Henry went to the Pro Bowl a year or two ago and he isn\'t going for a first rounder. The Dolphins were talking about trading Surtain for a 4th rounder, same withthe Texans and Jamie Sharper. How is Howard more valuable than any of those players? Must be cause he wears the black and gold. We have two starting DEs. let\'s tie most of our cap up in keeping a third cause we want to get more for him than teams are getting for better players. Nice plan.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

This isn\'t an applicable situation by contrast. I\'m sure you realize that the NFL essentially stole Owens from the Ravens or 49ers in order to get him to Philli. It\'s a completely different situation.

We don\'t know what these players\' values are until they\'re actually traded. I think this is unprecedented where RBs like Alexander and James aren\'t worth 1st round picks. I can see how James\' injury a while back might diminish his value, but Alexander? He\'s worth a 1st everday - especially to a team outside the top 15 in the draft.

Certainly there are finances that play into why we might take a second and feel good about it because we were able to free up space and all.

I still say, however, if he\'s not worth a 1st, he is worth a 2nd and some additional compensation.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Yes Scotty but initially TO was gonna go to the Ravens for a second until he was stolen, as you very aptly put it. So is Howard still then more vaulable than TO? The initial trade was for a second.

Also, on Edge and Shaun, it maybe unprecedented, but vet players value as opposed to picks has diminished greatly. Like I said, look at what Sharper and Surtain were going for. These are pro bowlers. No matter how much we say he is pro bowl caliber, he hasn\'t been, and he has a slight injury history. Based on these factors there is no way we will get a first for him. A high second will aloow us to address a need position. How do we know Howard won\'t be out for more games this year should we keep him? Isn\'t that as much a crap shoot given he has been hurt the past two years?

And I don\'t disagree with your second and compensation notion, just we aren\'t gonna get it. SO a high second seems pretty good to me on that front, considering the ramifications were we to have to keep him.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

This is one of those rare times when I agree with WhoDat.

Howard isn\'t worth a 1st round draft pick. But a player-for-player trade is what needs to happen.

If we get a 2nd for Darren Howard then chances are we come out on the short end of the stick.

I\'d just as soon hold on to Howard for one more year.

2nd round picks are just too risky. Regardless of what 2nd round gems MIGHT be out there.

I know what we have in Darren Howard. And if the team can make it work \"cap wise\" ... then I think Howard can be a major contributor for us THIS year.

Hopefully we will get a \"player\" in return of Howard. That\'s the ideal situation.

[Edited on 15/4/2005 by GumboBC]

oakland ups ante for howard
 

If we keep Howard, we will have roughly 1 mil in cap space. Conventional wisdom says you need close to 4 mil just to sign your rookies.

We literally cannot afford to keep Howard.

Why do I feel like a broken record?

I agree that we\'d need to get a 1st rounder to keep from getting screwed on the deal, but we\'re going to get screwed because of our cap position either way. I really like the idea of trading for a player - but we\'d have to trade for someone cheaper than Howard (considerably cheaper).

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I\'m not sure but isn\'t there a separate pool for rookie signings? I read that somewhere.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

JKool --

One thing I know about the salary cap is that things can be made to work in the short-term.

I think the Saints can rearrange some stuff and hold on to Howard for ONE more year and we\'ll be fine.

At least other teams have done something simular.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

if we gte the number 38 keep it and use our draft picks. no need to move up this year

oakland ups ante for howard
 

But using that same logic Gum, why wouldn\'t the Saints trade Howard, work those same deals, and restructure all the contracts they need to restructure? Is it better to have one happy player at the franchise number or 3 or 4 happy players cause when you traded him, they got what they have been waiting for? And LeCharles nor Deuce have raised a stink about it. Those are the guys you have to take care of. Not saying Howard has raised a stink, but he is expendable.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

As far as I know ... Deuce and Le Charles are under contract. I could care less if they have to wait. If they want to b*itch, then let \'em b*itch.

Don\'t get me wrong ... I want to trade Darrent Howard. Very badly, too.

But not for a 2nd. Not this year anyway.

Darren Howard, if he\'s on the team, will contribute more THIS year than some 2nd round draft pick.

That\'s my take anyway.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Darren Howard, if he\'s on the team, will contribute more THIS year than some 2nd round draft pick.

Howard would probably be more productive than anyone we would pick in the 2nd this year. However, his presence does not allow Will Smith to get on the field and show what hes all about. Maybe this analogy is a stretch. We had Ricky Williams and we drafted Deuce. At the time many were shocked, some were pissed. I felt the same way last year when we drafted Smith. However, eventually we had to send Ricky elsewhere to make room for Deuce to get on the field. That is the problem with drafting by the BPA scenario. If you draft at a position that is not a need then it gets crowded. Howard would be more productive than anyone we could get in the 2nd round this year, but he prevents Will Smith from getting on the field and he prevents us from filling a need elsewhere(assuming the trade happened). Another stretch for an analaogy involves the RB situation in Minnesota. Michael Bennett year in, year out is the starter. However, he takes carries from Onterrio Smith, a yonger player who needs to be on the field to achieve his potential. For them, trading Michael Bennett would allow Smith to get on the field, free up cap room, and allow them to draft at another position that would fill a need even though that player might not be as productive as Bennett would be. Thus, I say if the trade can happen, then make it happen.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

BRSaintsFan --

I\'m going to have to take expecption to your agruement.

First -- Will Smith is gonna see much more playing time than what Deuce did when Ricky Williams was here.

Second - Will Smith and Darren Howard both saw a good deal of playing time last season. Darren Howard 11-sacks. Will Smith 8-sacks and 2 forced fumbles.

Third -- Darren Howard plays DT in obvious passing situations.

Fourth -- If Will Smith struggles or gets hurt (God forbid) then Howard suddenly becomes very valuable.

Taking EVERYTHING into consideration ... I would rather keep Howard than to trade him for a 2nd this year.

Besides freeing up cap space ... I really don\'t see that much value in a 2nd.