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DT Corey Simon available now?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Simply as a matter of \"need,\" I\'m in support of the (theoretical) trade. Most agree Will Smith is ready to start, even if he\'s not reached Howard\'s calibre quite yet, and he draws less water against the overall cap. There\'s ...

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Old 04-25-2005, 05:08 PM   #21
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DT Corey Simon available now?

Simply as a matter of \"need,\" I\'m in support of the (theoretical) trade. Most agree Will Smith is ready to start, even if he\'s not reached Howard\'s calibre quite yet, and he draws less water against the overall cap.

There\'s also little disagreement that DT remains a question mark. Sure, Sully might stop up - would be super if he does - but we have no evidence that will be the case. Thus, DT remains a \"need,\" with no clear players ready to step up. Simon is a fine DT and could take over immediately if said trade were to take place.

Conclusion #1: DT is a bigger need than DE.

Financially, we can argue all day about cap numbers. We often do. As it stands, barring some sort of long term deal (which is rumored to have been proposed), Howard stands to pull down $7.8 Million dollars this season alone. See whodi\'s post above for related math.

If you wanna go the \"restructure Howard\'s contract\" route, what\'s keeping us from doing the same with Simon\'s? Dollars and sense, as you may...

Conclusion #2: Financially, Simon makes as much (if not obviously MORE) sense than Howard, not to mention fitting a more pressing \"need\" per above.

Not trying to incite more arguing, just not sure I understand the objections unless the consensus is that Simon is truly \"washed up.\"

By the way, per NFL.com, Simon is 28 years old...

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187398

[Edited on 25/4/2005 by mutineer10]
while we\'re on the theoretical trade, i would like to propose sending howard along with brooks and our first rounder for the next few yrs to new england for brady...........just call benson, nothing ventured, nothing gained.............if anything a good laugh never hurt anyone............smitty
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Old 04-25-2005, 05:17 PM   #22
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DT Corey Simon available now?

Is DT really a need?

According to most Saints\' fans its a huge need.

But what insight do fans really have?

Most fans are way too emotional when it comes to Jonathan Sullivan.

I\'ve heard Haslett say on more than one occassion that Sullivan is extremely talented and that his attitude is what has held him back.

I heard defensive line coach John Pease say the samething.

I\'ve read where Sullivan has a new attitude and that he\'s been working out and losing weight. (He\'s almost at his ideal playing weight now.)

If you listen to fans, then there\'s no way Sullivan is a player for us this year.

If you listen to Haslett and John Pease then there\'s more of a reason to believe Sullivan will contribute.

Given that Sullivan was a 1st round talent when he was drafted then is it really worth the risk of drafting a DT in the first round when Sullivan might step up?

If Sullivan does step up then it would seem like a foolish pick when you consider we had so many other needs on defense.

If Sullivan doesn\'t step up ... are all of our other DTS so bad?

Simply stated: With the way Haslett and Loomis approached free-agency and the draft ... it seems like they are pretty confident with Sullivan and our exsisting defensive tackles.

Not that Haslett is always right, but I\'ve got to put more faith in Haslett than the fans.
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Old 04-25-2005, 05:29 PM   #23
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DT Corey Simon available now?

Is DT really a need?
30th against the run.

But what insight do fans really have?
Good question. Aren\'t you a fan?

Most fans are way too emotional when it comes to Jonathan Sullivan.
Agreed. Some love him for no reason.

I\'ve heard Haslett say on more than one occassion that Sullivan is extremely talented and that his attitude is what has held him back.
Where? I won\'t even get into the whole issue from the last time about making a comment about what Haslett said BEFORE an article even came out. Any other examples? Just please explain where thes enumerous times occured that you heard this.

I heard defensive line coach John Pease say the samething.
Got a link? And I want the words EXTREMELY TALENTED that you have heard MANY TIMES.

I\'ve read where Sullivan has a new attitude and that he\'s been working out and losing weight. (He\'s almost at his ideal playing weight now.)
We all read that, he was twenty pounds overwight still. If you have read something more recent, please provide a link. Shouldn;t be too hard since you read it, and every media source is online.

If you listen to Haslett and John Pease then there\'s more of a reason to believe Sullivan will contribute
Awaiting MANY TIMES, and the words EXTREMELY TALENTED.

If Sullivan does step up then it would seem like a foolish pick when you consider we had so many other needs on defense
No it wouldn\'t. You would have a pro bowl DT and an improved sullivan on the line. What\'s not to like about that? With Young for breathers. How is it better to pay starters money for a third DE in a rotation. THAT is foolish.

f Sullivan doesn\'t step up ... are all of our other DTS so bad?
Yes.

Simply stated: With the way Haslett and Loomis approached free-agency and the draft ... it seems like they are pretty confident with Sullivan and our exsisting defensive tackles.
Or there were no FA DTs they liked, and none they liked where they were drafting.

Not that Haslett is always right, but I\'ve got to put more faith in Haslett than the fans.
Haslett had Sullivan inactive the majority of last season, and Sullivan was healthy, so yes I agree. Based on that. we should all believe Haslett and not the fans. Sullivan is worthless even when healthy. Again, I agree.
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Old 04-25-2005, 05:33 PM   #24
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DT Corey Simon available now?

Is DT really a need?
Most of us on here seem to think so ... if you like Haslett\'s opinion better, that\'s fine with me. But whoever\'s OPINION you value more, it\'s a FACT that teams ran all over us last season.

Given that Sullivan was a 1st round talent when he was drafted then is it really worth the risk of drafting a DT in the first round when Sullivan might step up?

If Sullivan does step up then it would seem like a foolish pick when you consider we had so many other needs on defense.
Well, nobody said anything about drafting a DT ... we were discussing a theoretical trade for Corey Simon, a proven DT. Recall, I said it would be excellent if Sully steps up ... but where is the evidence? Somewhere in the hot dog line? It certainly wasn\'t on the field last season ... or the season before that...

If Sullivan doesn\'t step up ... are all of our other DTS so bad?
See \"teams ran all over us last year\" above...

Simply stated: With the way Haslett and Loomis approached free-agency and the draft ... it seems like they are pretty confident with Sullivan and our exsisting defensive tackles.

Not that Haslett is always right, but I\'ve got to put more faith in Haslett than the fans.
Again, that\'s fine with me. I don\'t care WHO stops the run ... but somebody needs to...
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Old 04-25-2005, 05:37 PM   #25
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DT Corey Simon available now?

saintwhodi --

Seeing that you have called Sullivan a \"theif\" ... I really don\'t put a lot of stock in your opinion of Sullivan.

You\'ve written Sullivan off. And you have the that right.

But given the FACT that Sullivan is still on this team ... then I\'ve got to think Haslett believes in Sullivan.

Now, if I take the most \"pessimistic\" view on Jonathan Sullivan, then I\'d say he\'s a bum and he\'s a \"theif\".

But, I\'m going based on what I\'ve heard Haslett say with my own two ears.

I don\'t have a link where Loomis said they weren\'t going to trade Darren Howard \"unless soneone offers something that made his eyes roll\". But he said it nonetheless!!

If you want to believe I\'m lying ... then that\'s your right.

I, however, heard him say it. When I want to believe your opinion over Haslett and Loomis then I\'ll let you know.

Don\'t hold yoru breath!!

[Edited on 25/4/2005 by GumboBC]
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Old 04-25-2005, 05:46 PM   #26
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DT Corey Simon available now?

Hmm...

CHOICE: Defend the overall position OR simply defend Sullivan = ANSWER: simply defend Sullivan

Think I see where this is going...

Oh well, nice proposal anyway Danno. I still like the trade idea...
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Old 04-25-2005, 05:54 PM   #27
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DT Corey Simon available now?

Hmm...

CHOICE: Defend the overall position OR simply defend Sullivan = ANSWER: simply defend Sullivan

Think I see where this is going...

Oh well, nice proposal anyway Danno. I still like the trade idea...
Why is it that anytime anyone brings up the \"positives\" of Sullivan they are defending him?

I don\'t know Sullivan and I have no reason to defend Sullivan.

What I\'m doing is trying to show there might be a reason why DT wasn\'t addressed in free-agency of the draft.

And the reason may be that Haslett and John Pease believes Sullivan will step up? Is that impossible?

Is it impossible that a 1st round draft choice might produce?

Certainly it\'s not impossible.

There is NO way Haslett is going to publically state Sullivan is going to have a break-out year. They are going to be cautious regarding anything they say about Sullivan.

Nobody knows what to expect from Sullivan this year. Not me. Not you. Not any fans.

But I have to think with the Saints not addressing DT in the draft or free-agency that they feel pretty confident with who they have. Whether that\'s Sullivan or one of our other DTs.

As far as our run defense finishing 32nd. That isn\'t all on our DTs. With your reasoning ... we need to get rid or Brian Young, Howard Green, Coutney Watson, Cobly Bockwoldt, James Allen, Darren Howard, and Will Smith.

All of those players have a big role in stopping the run.

Does this mean I don\'t think we need DTs? Nope.

Just making some observations.



[Edited on 25/4/2005 by GumboBC]
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Old 04-25-2005, 06:13 PM   #28
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DT Corey Simon available now?

GumboBC,

I wasn\'t attacking you. I said above I\'d be as happy as anyone if Sully finally shows up next season. It\'d be about lately - as far as I\'m concerned - but if he shows up I\'m thrilled.

As far as our run defense finishing 32nd. That isn\'t all on our DTs. With your reasoning ... we need to get rid or Brian Young, Howard Green, Coutney Watson, Cobly Bockwoldt, James Allen, Darren Howard, and Will Smith.

All of those players have a big role in stopping the run.

Does this mean I don\'t think we need DTs? Nope.

Just making some observations.
I totally agree those players have a role in stopping the run, but it\'s rudimentary football knowledge that it all starts \"in the trenches.\" Didn\'t you say that about Jammal Brown?

I don\'t wanna cut the entire front seven, I just want them to stop the friggin\' run. Remember, I said:

I don\'t care WHO stops the run ... but somebody needs to...
Questions now, and these are not \"loaded,\" simply a matter of opinion...

To get back to the subject of the thread: Is DT a more pressing need than DE? Would you be interested in a Howard/Simon trade? Whodi pointed out Trotter\'s resurgence once he got back behind Corey Simon; do you think Watson, Fincher ... heck, Ruff ... could perform better with a Pro Bowl DT wrecking havoc in the middle?

I\'m still willing to give Sullivan a chance (though his chances are waning). But would you feel better about a proven DT - a player who has ALREADY realized & proven his potential - taking over if we could give up Howard to get it done?









[Edited on 25/4/2005 by mutineer10]
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Old 04-25-2005, 06:48 PM   #29
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DT Corey Simon available now?

Good points mutey. But you are gonna get the classic attack the poster and not the post responses. Notice how it was said that things were read MANY TIMES and said MANY Times, but there is not many links to be found? All I asked for was to read the same thing. First response, saintswhodi, you called Sullivan a thief. So basically, I have zero proof to what I am saying, so I will attack the poster and try to discredit them. Isn\'t that against the rules? But it\'s the typical response. Then peopel wonder why you get pissed at stuff like that. Of well, I tried. I went point by point, never attacked the poster, and never got a response except to attack something I said months ago. So if it smells like it, looks like it, and messes up your shoes like it, it must be :icon_bs:
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Old 04-25-2005, 07:43 PM   #30
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DT Corey Simon available now?

But what insight do fans really have?
This is one of those arguments that comes up from time to time. I always wonder why.

Here is the form:
Coach A says y
Therefore,
y.

I\'m certain that no one would be here to discuss anything if we all thought we should just believe whatever a coach/scout/professional journalist/whoever says. What would be the point in discussing anything?

I\'m sure you heard Haz and Pease say that Sullivan was talented, but I\'ve also heard them say \"he didn\'t come to camp prepared\", \"he came to camp overweight and out of shape.\" (well, Haz anyway)

Even if he is extremely talented, he\'s never on the field. It is hard to stop the run from the press box (or the buffet line). DT is a need UNLESS there is some stuff that is true about Sully that we haven\'t heard during this offseason or is somehow unknowable by us.

I think that the best position on Sully is this: he hasn\'t produced so far, and there is little evidence one way or the other whether or not he will this year. That means this: we have Young and Green and/or the big ol\' question mark that is Sully starting for us.

That seems sufficient to make the judgement that we have a need at DT. If Sully steps up then Simon and Sully would be our starters... damn. If we don\'t get Simon and Sully shows up, we\'ve got Young and Sully... solid to damn. Either way, if we keep Howard, we\'ve got Smith and Grant one way or the other. I fail to see what is bad about a Simon trade.

The question at hand isn\'t: what is the actually best thing for the Saints to do, since I agree fan\'s have a dearth of information. The question is: given the best arguments made, what does it seem reasonable for the Saints to do. That is the best we can ever do on a message board. I agree that fans are sometimes too emotional, but I wonder why you\'d think that it is fun or worth discussing in favor of coach\'s claim?

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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