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The Extremes

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I count this as one of the most insightful threads for me to understand some perspectives different than mine. My viewpoint is akin to TheDeuce. Billy\'s approach many times seems like blind faith or mindless optimism to me. The flip ...

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Old 04-26-2005, 10:18 PM   #11
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The Extremes

I count this as one of the most insightful threads for me to understand some perspectives different than mine.

My viewpoint is akin to TheDeuce. Billy\'s approach many times seems like blind faith or mindless optimism to me. The flip flopping views and endless cheerleading I do not relate to. I mean no offense or slam, just my perception. Maybe I can understand a bit more now after this thread though. Another 8-8 and no change IS preferable to some people over 4-12 with change. It is difficult for me to fathom but I am begining to see that take even if very different than my own. Cheer the team on, support the staff and ownership... no matter what. Hey, they were 15 teams worse than us last year. And if 5-11, there are still teams worse than us. 8-8 again and change regime, then we might end up worse. So how could one hope for change?

I\'ll take the risk of change anyday over finding satisfaction in mediocrity. Am I quoting Lombardi correctly here?... \"Winning isn\'t the most important thing, it is the only thing.\" My take is a winning organization. Winning beyond the scoreboard. Get that right and the wins on the field will come. Those wins are the ultimate judgement eventually though. I won\'t be happy or satisfied until the Saints hold the Lombardi Trophy. Then it will all start over from scratch the next year. I could care less about the record unless it translates to a championship. 9-7, eeking into the playoffs, and being eliminated quickly will do as little for me as another 8-8 2nd place finish. Then also, 5-11 would bother me none if I had confidence that a winning organization was in place and operating. The Titans come to mind. Do I have one question about Jeff Fisher\'s ability because they were 5-11? Not at all. That is from proven quality. Yes, winning consistently but a quality beyond that too. I believe the wins come from that characteristic,not the characteristics come from the wins.
Therein is the trouble with the current Saints. I do not see that essence. I see flashes of brilliance along with pathetic embarrassments. I see enough pure athletic and/or football talent that sustained quality of performance should be expected. To date however that has not happened. The fruit of this erratic team under Haslett is 42-38. After five years an identity is established. National press identifies this team as underachievers. As pointed out, Berman used the word goofy just this past Saturday. The focal point of this past season was the unconscionable backwards pass to a lineman. And rightly so! It typlified the frequent disarray of the team.

I am reminded of going to Yankee Stadium. It is an intense experience! The fans are emotionally charged, vociferous to both opponents and their own. They (like many here) have a lot invested in their team- time, money, family, emotion. Many cheer with every fiber of their being. Likewise they experience the anguish of game losing errors. They voice their anguish. Not even Derek Jeter can blow a game and not incur the wrath of the fans. It isn\'t about not liking him. It is about winning. Never accepting anything less than maximum performance to reach that.

Forgive my soapboxing, I\'m just trying to bridge some of the many differences in how different fans support this team.
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:49 PM   #12
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The Extremes

I don\'t want to sound like a broken record, but what\'s the difference between being 8-8 and not going to the playoffs and being 3-13?
You get to see your team win 5 more games?
You enjoy the excitement of week 17 and you have a chance to get into the playoffs?
You\'re a team that may just be on the verge of taking the next step?
Because 3-13 teams usually need a few years to even approach being 8-8?
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Old 04-26-2005, 11:17 PM   #13
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The Extremes

I don\'t want to sound like a broken record, but what\'s the difference between being 8-8 and not going to the playoffs and being 3-13? Nothing,
Not quite. At 8-8 I\'ll wear my Saints visor in public.
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Old 04-27-2005, 12:30 AM   #14
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The Extremes

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don\'t want to sound like a broken record, but what\'s the difference between being 8-8 and not going to the playoffs and being 3-13?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You get to see your team win 5 more games?
You enjoy the excitement of week 17 and you have a chance to get into the playoffs?
You\'re a team that may just be on the verge of taking the next step?
Because 3-13 teams usually need a few years to even approach being 8-8?
My point is that, losing just enough games not to make the playoffs is completely worthless in this league. Every team, and I mean every team, in this league has the goal at the beginning of every year to win the Super Bowl (if they don\'t they should give the fans their money back). So every time the Saints go 8-8 and don\'t go to the playoffs, or go 9-7 and don\'t go to the playoffs, or go 16-0 and lose in the NFC championship, I am going to see the season as a failure. Too extreme? Maybe, but that\'s just how I see it. Every team\'s goal is to win the Super Bowl, if they don\'t, then they have failed. Sure you might get to see them win \"five more games\" but what does that do? What trophy do you get for \"five more\" wins? What title do you get? None. Sure I would love to see the Saints win five more games, but if those five games don\'t get us to a Super Bowl victory, what good are they? Franchises are known for how many Super Bowls they have won. That\'s why the Cowboys and the Steelers and the Patriots are always held in such high esteem and why the Cardinals and Saints are always laughed at and called goofy. No Super Bowl? Failed season. So right now I am counting 37 years of failure. Something to be proud of? Absolutely not. We\'ve been the laughing stock of the league for nearly four decades. I\'m tired of mediocrity. I\'m tired of 8-8 bullcrap. Why not strive for something better? Why not change some things that will give us a better shot of pulling this franchise out of complacency?
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Old 04-27-2005, 09:02 AM   #15
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The Extremes

I\'m actually kind of surprised to see Billy argue this point like he has.... and then again I\'m not.

Here\'s what I don\'t get:

How can you use the argument - we\'ve had lots of high draft picks, coaching changes, etc. in the past and that hasn\'t helped, so what makes you think a change now or a high draft pick now will be any different?

Then, when someone says, the Saints under Haslett haven\'t addressed LB, or played consistently, or shown that they can be anything other than average with \"Haslett\'s guys\", etc. so what makes you think this team will get better with the current staff, you come to the opposite conclusion.


I guess it just boils down to what you have faith in. Some people have faith that the 5th time or the 6th or 7th will be the Charm for Haslett and this team. I don\'t. Haslett may be able to get us over the hump and into the playoffs, but I have serious reservations about this staff ever making us true contenders.

To me, there is hope in change. A new staff, new coaches... who knows what they might be able to do with all this talent? I\'d like to see, b/c if nothing else, I\'ve seen what Haslett & Co. are capable of and I\'m not real impressed. Give someone else a shot.

I fully believe that nothing great can ever be accomplished without taking great risk. Nothing wagered, nothing earned. Sure, a new staff might fail, and that would be fine with me. I wouldn\'t be happy, but I\'ll always prefer someone taking a shot and failing over complacancy. As Michael Jordan put it, \"I\'ve failed over and over, and that is why I\'ve succeeded.\"

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 04-27-2005, 09:32 AM   #16
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The Extremes

Not quite. At 8-8 I\'ll wear my Saints visor in public.
Amen. Even though 8-8 doesn\'t guarantee any respectability. I heard a guy on the radio yesterday from football insider say that the Saints should have a hamster wheel on their helmet because they just keep going round and round (in reference to the draft). But he didn\'t bring up any of the questionable picks...he just goofed on us because it\'s always been easy to do.

Did anyone see the Sam Mills piece on nfl network? I\'d say 70% of the highlights were Carolina. It\'s amazing how this franchise gets viewed even while in the middle of the pack for a few years.

Does anyone think 1-15 would help this perception? It would just make it even easier to knock the Saints.

Consider this: If it takes a 1-15 finish to tell this FO that the team is underachieving (vs 8-8), then you can\'t just blame the coach. I know that most everyone knows this, but when there is an organization wide acceptance of mediocrity, it\'s hard to move forward. Does any one really trust these guys to make a positive impact in the organization after 1-15 vs 8-8? I know that I don\'t. They\'d probably just snatch up McCarthy and give him his first shot at head coaching.

As bad as it sucks, I have enjoyed watching a team with a real shot at the playoffs in weeks 15-17. I haven\'t enjoyed the end result, but I have enjoyed the ride. (Didn\'t someone recently liken Saints fandom to crack use?) During Haslett\'s tenure (which has been erratic as he11), the saints have been the 7th playoff seed for how many years? I\'m not saying that I accept that, just that when I\'m in the heat of the season pleasuring myself to the thought of a Saints playoff run, I can at least formulate a make believe scenario that will get us to the big game

If we were 1-10 in week twelve, I would still watch. It would certainly be easier to laugh when Broooks throws one to the hot dog vendor, but I like the PROSPECT of meaningful football. I have that at 6-5 or 5-6. The mediocrity is maddening and I see where someone would say let\'s burn it all down. But....high draft picks don\'t always get it done, just ask the Bengals and Cards. When your FO is a major part of the problem, everything is an unknown and a complete rebuild might just put you right back where you started or worse.

Having said all that, no playoffs in \'05 to me better mean no Haz in \'06. I would have loved to put Romeo in the HC slot this year. Talk of an extension for Haz before this year just makes no sense. Put up or get out. That goes for 8-8 or 1-15
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Old 04-27-2005, 11:54 AM   #17
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The Extremes

WhoDat --

You think Haslett and co. need to go, right? Then why not start hoping for an 0-16 season RIGHT NOW?!

You have very little faith in Haslett and co ... RIGHT?

So, if ANYONE wished us to go 0-16 this year then they are just thinking about the best interest of the TEAM ... RIGHT?

Afterall ... Haslett has had long enough and there\'s little reason to believe we are going to do much this year ... RIGHT?

What kind of fan would I be if I wished the Saints to go 0-16 this year?

Hey, I can guarantee you that if we did go 0-16 Haslett and co. would be fired.

I could tell you going 0-16 is in the best interest of the team!!

Do you want to go 0-16??????????

I could tell you guys to put your money where your mouth is and join me in hoping we go 0-16 this year. But I have a feeling folks would tell me I\'m being silly?!
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Old 04-27-2005, 12:43 PM   #18
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The Extremes

I fully believe that nothing great can ever be accomplished without taking great risk. Nothing wagered, nothing earned. Sure, a new staff might fail, and that would be fine with me. I wouldn\'t be happy, but I\'ll always prefer someone taking a shot and failing over complacancy. As Michael Jordan put it, \"I\'ve failed over and over, and that is why I\'ve succeeded.\"
I agree with this post, all of it, but I didn\'t want to take up the room for the entire thing. I might add one thing to this argument. My entire displeasure with the Saints is not Hazlett but Loomis. The way to make the playoffs is to have a FOOTBALL knowledgable General Manager and a Coach who have a plan and STICK TO IT. The essential problem is that this draft and all of the others were really not Hazlett\'s, but Loomis\'. We all crab about Hazlett, but he has little say in player selection.

While I do love the Saints, I, like Who Dat, and Whodi believe that there is a sickness in the upper ranks that needs curing. I\'d like to see Loomis and the entire front office sacked and bring in someone who could work with Hazlett and make him the coach with front office support. Maybe we\'d see a difference on the field. If not, then HIT THE TRAIL, HAZ!!

Flame Away!!!
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Old 04-27-2005, 12:46 PM   #19
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You\'re missing the point Billy. NO ONE is suggesting that they want the team to go 0-16. NO ONE. What people are suggesting is that the Saints need to get it together and put up a winning season that ends in playoffs.

However, if that isn\'t in the cards, I\'d rather this team stink than be 8-8 again. Can you distinguish the difference. I don\'t believe Haz & Co. will get it done but that doesn\'t mean I\'m rooting for them to fail. It\'s just the opposite. I want to be surprised. But if not, I\'d rather they bomb than do just enough yet again to stick around for another 8-8 season.

You\'re making this into something that it isn\'t.

Why do you fight so hard to show that Haslett and company can put us over the hump? They\'ve done little to support that outside of their first season (hen the players and staff were different).

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 04-27-2005, 01:07 PM   #20
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The Extremes

WhoDat --

I just don\'t get it, WhoDat. You\'ve stated over and over again that it isn\'t very likely Haslett will ever get us to the super bowl.

IF you truly believe that, then if I were you, I would hope that we went 0-16 THIS year so we could finally move on and get another coach. For better or worse!!

Why hope we lose the last 4 games last year and then support him at the beginning of the \'05 season? Because you HOPE Haslett can get it done this year? Well, I was HOPING we could squeak in the playoffs and make a run at the super bowl last year.

Look at it this way WhoDat .. If we start the season off 8-0 and lose the last 8 games, then we\'ll still be 8-8 and Haslett will probably keep his job.

It would be much better if we started out 0-8 then it\'s much more likely Haslett will finally be fired!!



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