Riddle me this:?
 

I stole this post off of another board. The dude makes a damn good point to me.

Rip it apart guys!!

Riddle me this:?
 

That\'s easy. Sully did what he did while under contract with the Saints, McPhereson didn\'t. I give a **** what he did in college.

:shrug:

Riddle me this:?
 

...something in the lines of embracing skinny girls you just met and ignoring fat chicks that don\'t put out?

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I\'m not an FSU fan?
Seems to me that Sully\'s immaturity hurt the Saints. McPherson\'s hurt the Seminoles (whom I detest anyway).

For example, if we cut Sully and he goes on to be a hall of fame player for the Falcons, I\'d still detest him for what he did to us.

Riddle me this:?
 

First of all, McPherson didn\'t do his screwing up while making #6 overall money. We\'ve been paying Sullivan, but he hasn\'t been performing.

Second, I\'d be shocked to know anyone didn\'t have questions about whether McPherson has truly put things behind him. The only question left for Sulivan is whether he will even be worth keeping on the team. He will never prove to be worth the 2 first round picks we gave up for him.

The bottomline is McPherson is new and will be given some latitide and time to show us who he is. Sully has already had that chance and is at the end of the rope.

Riddle me this:?
 

I thought this would spark some good conversation. Saints\' fans are nothing if not passionate!!

Both guys are very young, right?

Both made mistakes, right?

Both were considered extremely talented, right?

So, the main difference is Sully screwed up as a Saints and we gave up a lot to get him? Correct?

And McPhearson ... well ... he hasn\'t hurt us yet and we didn\'t give up a lot to get him?

Still, Sully didn\'t tell Micky Loomis and Haslett to give up 2-first round picks for him. Seems like you guys should be mad at Loomis and Haslett for that. Not Jonathan Sullivan.

You should be mad at Sullivan for not doing everything in his power to be the best player he can be. But does Sullivan not deserve another chance like you guys are giving McPhearson?

Riddle me this:?
 

McPherson now has a two year track record of having changed.
The only thing that implies Sully has changed are a couple of mini-camp reports, many of which contradict each other.

McPherson is MUCH further along in proving he regrets the errors of his youth. Sullivan hasn\'t even started yet.

Riddle me this:?
 

I do not know what I could add to all of the other responses except for my own personal opinions -- I completely agree with Scotty -- we wasted 2 #1\'s on Sully; We are paying Sully big bucks currently hurting our cap -- Sully is a drag on the team\'s morale.

Now Mcpherson -- cost us a number 5 and will cost us a number 5 salary; performed well in the Arena league which is a step above college ball, has a chip on his shoulder to prove the NFL he is a claiber QB.

All in all I would say it is completely obvious why we can have different opinions on the 2 subjects.

Riddle me this:?
 

Danno --

You\'ve only got McPhearson\'s word that he\'s changed. Just like Sully has given his word.

Not a lot to go on for either one.

McPherson is MUCH further along in proving he regrets the errors of his youth?????????????

Yeah, well, he commited his \"sin\" MUCH longer ago than what Sully did. Stands to reason that he\'s MUCH further along. But, just because he hasn\'t stolen any checks in a couple of years really doesn\'t indicate he won\'t screw up again.

And McPhearson\'s \"sin\" was a lot worse than Sully.

Riddle me this:?
 

Come on guys ....

Loomis and Haslett gave up 2-first round picks for Sully.

Jonathan had nothing to do with that.

Did you blame Ricky Williams for Mika Ditka giving up a whole draft for him? Come on!! That wasn\'t Rickey\'s fault.

If you guys want to blame someone for giving up 2 first round picks ... shouldn\'t you blame Haslett and Loomis?

Jonathan Sullivan\'s fault?????? :D

Riddle me this:?
 

Well there\'s two years of back-up behind McPherson\'s claim, and there isn\'t one single day of back-up to support Sullivan\'s.

They may both be full of crap, but I\'ll put my money on the guy who\'s backed it up for two years over the guy that has only told us he\'s changed, for about the 3rd time, and has zero evidence to support it.

[Edited on 27/4/2005 by Danno]

Riddle me this:?
 

Not in my mind. Sully is stealing checks from the team I love while McPherson stole a check from some rim shop I never heard of when he was like 18 or 19 years old. Like BNB said, I could give a **** what McPherson did at Florida state, Sully is stealing from us right here and now.

Riddle me this:?
 

Not disputing that McPhearson has been \"cleaner\" than Sullivan for a longer period of time.

But if I\'m picking a guy for my football team, I\'d probably be more concerned with the guy who commited the bigger crime.

In fact, Sully commited no crime.

How many times has McPhearson vowed to clean his act up?

Was it after he stole the check? Or after he got arrested for gambling?

Riddle me this:?
 

Sounds like someone needs to read my sinner to Saint post. ;)

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:D You can be sure, JoeSam, I read it. :D

But we\'ve got to give these passionate Saints\' fans something to chew on.

They\'re a hungry group.

Chow down, boys. And girls .... ;)

Riddle me this:?
 

He made himself available for the draft. I\'m sure they talked to hiim before they made the pick. He was probably giving them the full line of how hard he was going to work.

Thing is his unwillingness to dedicate himself is the problem no matter what picks we gave up for him. However, the fact that we\'re paying him so much and we gave up so much does mean that he should be trying harder than he is.

That is all.

Riddle me this:?
 

Interesting. I don\'t agree with it. But it\'s interesting.

I\'ll ask this again... Do you blame Rickey Williams for making himself \"avaliable\" for the draft and the Saints giving up a WHOLE draft for him?

I never heard you or ANYone blame Ricky Wiliams for that. I\'ve heard Mike (Duh Coach) Ditka blamed, though.

So, we blame Ditka for giving up a whole draft for Rickey Williams but we blame Jonathan Sullivan for what Loomis and Haslett did?

Doesn\'t make a lot of sense to me?!

Riddle me this:?
 

You seriously want to compare RW\'s NFL record to Sully\'s?

RW may have been a freak and shafted the Dolphins, but at least for the time he was in the league he showed up to play.

:casstet:

Riddle me this:?
 

Who\'s talking about prodution?

No one has been talking about \"prodution\" unitl now ... when you brought it up.

Scotty .. before Sullian and Ricky Williams were drafted ... there was NO produciton.

We were talking about what the Saints gave up to get Ricky Williams and Sullivan in the draft. There was NO production to go on.

I simply stated that Sullivan had nothing to do with 2 first round picks being given up for him.

Just like Ricky Williams has nothing to do with Ditka giving up a whole draft for him.

Why be mad at Sullivan because Haslett and Loomis gave up too much? Just doesn\'t make sense. Be mad at Haslett and Loomis.



[Edited on 27/4/2005 by GumboBC]

Riddle me this:?
 

It\'s ALL about production. Nobody would be mad if Sully was paying dividends for us.

I wasn\'t in favor of trading up for anybody and didn\'t really know who Sully was, but I wasn\'t ahppy about it then. At least when we got RW there was general consensus that we got a good player. Not true with Sully.

You have lost focus on the thread not me. My statement was I\'m more likely at this point to give McPherson a chance rather than Sully because he has had his chance to produce and hasn\'t been worth what we gave and has been getting paid all along.

So, what matters other than production?

Riddle me this:?
 

Rarely do I speak on these issues but.........

I blame Haz and Loomis for drafting a fat lazy person(I just can\'t call him a football player, yet) and I blame Sullivan for not producing what he and others think he can. I have to agree with some others on here that Sullivan is no more than a thief. He\'s stealing the Saints and some other poor soles(who didn\'t get drafted) money by not producing. There\'s no telling how many lives he is affecting by his actions. The boy needs to grow up.

[Edited on 27/4/2005 by JOESAM2002]

Riddle me this:?
 

All I keep hearing is how Sullivan isn\'t playing up to us giving up 2 first round draft picks?

Bottom line, Scotty. Who do you blame for us giving up that much for Sullivan?

A. Jonathan Sullivan
B. Micky Loomis and Jim Haslett

You can\'t blame Sullivan for a decision that was out of his control. Sullivan had nothing to do with that.

Now, if you want to covince me that Sullivan somehow was responsible for us giving up 2 first round picks, then I\'m open the idea. But, you\'re going to have to show me something that I\'m unware of.

Now ... as far as production? So we expect Will Smith to be worth 2 first round draft picks? Or is Jammal Brown worth 2 first round draft picks?

Of course they\'re not worth 2 first round draft picks. And neither is Sullivan. But Sullivan didn\'t demand for Haslett and Loomis to give up that much, either.

That\'s all I\'m saying. To sit here and expect Sullivan to prove he\'s worth two first round draft picks is sure asking a lot.

He needs to play like he\'s worth a first round pick.

No need for folks to keep blaming Sullivan for Haslett and Loomis\' mistake of giving up 2 first round picks.

Riddle me this:?
 

What is the point of this thread? You\'re trying to tie two parallels, that will never meet.
This is a Saints board. We come here to talk Saints football. We\'ve watched over the past two years a guy getting paid alot of money to be fat and lazy, in a Saints uniform. We blame the front office for the making the pick, but blame falls on Sully for not staying in condition.
McPhereson is not even under contract yet.
What are we talking about again? I\'m confused.

Riddle me this:?
 

Gumbo, you have even me confused. :) I don\'t think anyone is saying that. The number of picks has nothing to do with whether he produces or not. The problem is, for a first rounder, you\'d think you\'d get more out of him than attacking the media buffet. But, boy he\'s hell at that. :D

Riddle me this:?
 

How can anyone be confused?

BlackandBlue and JoeSam ...

Have you guys never heard anyone blame Sullivan for not playing up to the 2 first round draft picks that were given up for him?

NO?

Well ... read what ScottyRo posted in this thread:

And ScottyRo surly isn\'t the first person to make that statement.

All I\'ve been saying is it\'s not Sullivan\'s fault that Loomis and Haslett gave up so much for him.

Now, if you want to talk about Sullivan being lazy and whatnot .. then that\'s completely valid.

Riddle me this:?
 

..and that\'s the thing, after 2 years as a pro there is NO production to go on from Sullivan... whereas Adrian has yet to even be in the State of Louisiana...

Riddle me this:?
 

Haz and Loomis, but that\'s not the point.

First, I said he\'d never be able to do this. Second and again, that\'s not the point. You asked essentially why Sully has a shorter leash than McPherson.

Answer: We gave up more, we pay more and yet Sully produces less that what we could have ever dreamed. He\'s not even trying. At least not before this offseason.

Regardless, of what McPherson has done, he hasn\'t yet hurt the team.

Riddle me this:?
 

Amen.

Riddle me this:?
 

Put it this way, Gumbo. I wouldn\'t have any problem going out and eating with Sully, but when it comes to him playing for the Saints, then I don\'t like the way things have gone so far. It isn\'t personal. He has not produced for the Saints, so therefore most people are very disenchanted with him. What is so hard to understand about that?

As far as MacPherson is concerned, he has only been with the team for six days now. I don\'t think he has even signed a contract yet. And, like everyone else has said, we didn\'t give up anything to get the guy. I don\'t see any corelation between the two guys.

You have to realize that we are going to like whoever we like, and it won\'t have anything to do with whether you want us to like the guy or not. There is a lot of time that has to pass before any sort of evaluation can be made regarding this pick, and what happens during that time will decide how most of us feel about our latest QB addition. I assure you that if any of his past problems rear their ugly head again, there will be plenty of people getting down on the dude. Most of us are willing to forget what happened before he was a Saint. If he\'s OK with the NFL, he\'s OK by me. What happens later is up to him.

Riddle me this:?
 

Maybe some of my confusion has been cleared up.

So, you guys agree that it\'s not Sullivan\'s fault that 2 first round picks were given up for him. I\'m on board with that idea.

And you guys don\'t expect for Sullivan to prove he was worth 2 first round picks. (since that was not his decision and was out of his control) I\'m on board with that idea, too.

And we all agree that Sullivan has been lazy and he at least needs to play like like a first round draft pick. I\'m on board there also.

As far as Sullivan\'s mistake compared to McPhearson?

Both were extremely young and immature when they made their mistakes. Right?

Both have promised to do better. Right?

All we have is thier word. Right?

It just cost us more with Sullivan. Right?

I think we all agree, then. :D

[Edited on 27/4/2005 by GumboBC]

Riddle me this:?
 

:yourock:

Riddle me this:?
 

BTW......i feel an agenda coming out of this thread!

Riddle me this:?
 

So you want to know why Sullivan is blamed for not playing up to the potential of two first round picks?
That\'s like asking why I get my ass chewed by my customer when it\'s my vendor that is having difficulty delivering the product when they said they would. Part of the business.
You\'ll see no sympathy from me for a guy that makes more in a year than I will in 5.

Riddle me this:?
 

I\'m not looking for sympathy for Jonathan Sullivan. What I\'m looking for is folks to stop blaming Sullivan for Haslett and Loomis giving up 2 picks for him.

Is that asking for sympathy? Hardly. I\'m saying if you want to bring up how much we gave up for Sully (as many have) then you should blame Haslett and Loomis.

Seems more reasonable to me.

I never knew it was \"part of the business\" to place blame where it doesn\'t belong. What company do you work for. ;)

[Edited on 27/4/2005 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 27/4/2005 by GumboBC]

Riddle me this:?
 

It\'s part of sales, it\'s not a specific company. And it\'s the only way you\'ll see change. If I\'m promised something by my vendor, and they don\'t deliver, I don\'t care who I\'m chewing, but I will chew someone\'s ass over it. They are paid representatives of their respective companies, so they can be paid to listen to me *****. And it happens on our customer side. I\'ve been chewed before by people that I\'ve never dealt with before.

Riddle me this:?
 

Yeah, I know you are in sales. And so am I. Well, sorta. I was in sales for many years for copiers, faxes, printers, etc.

And I was also a service tech for years on the same kind of equipment. Now, I just kind of oversee stuff.

Being in sales is a tough job. Or it can be. It\'s also very rewarding finacially. If you\'re good that is. And you get to meet a lot of interesting folks.

You\'re right, sales-people take a lot of crap sometimes. Much of it unfair. And the \"vendors\" can be a pain in the ass. If I had a dollar for everytime something was on \"back-order\" I\'d be a rich man.

Getting back to Sully. I think you see what I\'m saying. I\'m not excusing Sully for being lazy and not producing. I just don\'t blame him because we gave up too much to select him.

And I\'m willing to give him this ONE LAST CHANCE. It\'s in the best interest of the team. I think ... ;)

Riddle me this:?
 

Wasn\'t this the first question? Isn\'t this the root of what is \"being decided\" or discussed in this thread?

Fault - in terms of what the New Orleans Saints gave up to get Sullivan is NOT irrelevant, but I agree that it is NOT Sully\'s fault AND that is not the definitive issue.

There are a couple of relevant issues:

1. What McPherson did in no way affected the New Orleans Saints, so we haven\'t been burned by him - whereas we have been burned by Sullivan - which is WHY we \"can embrace one and not the other.\"

2. McPherson\'s acts MAY be construed as lapses in judgment - individual events. Sullivan\'s problem is better categorized as a CONDITION - fat and lazy. That\'s another reason we \"can embrace one and not the other.\"

3. Danno is correct (I think it was Danno). McPherson has PROVEN that he can suceed ON THE FIELD and in life since being in trouble. He\'s done it by not getting in trouble and playing great ball in the AFL. Sullivan, on the other hand, has proven every day for two years that - AT BEST - if he is even trying to earn his keep, he has failed at performing. Moreover, there is reason to doubt that Sullivan is even trying - which is why we \"can embrace one and not the other.\"

4. When looking at the talent of one as compared to the other, it seems that McPherson truly posses the talent to be a star in the NFL, whereas Sullivan\'s performance suggests otherwise. There was little to suggest that Sullivan could be all that great when we wasted the two first rounders on him. There is less now that we\'ve seen him play. McPherson still looks to be a freak talent-wise. Again, a reason why one is appealing and the other is not.


Need I go further????

Riddle me this:?
 

Whoa!! WhoDat calling an areana-league QB proven? Really?

And what did McPhearson do in college? Not much!!

If you\'re satisfied that McPhearson has proven himself to be NFL worthy, then you should be estatic about all of our draft picks.

I don\'t disagree with the notion that fans shouldn\'t be MORE with Sullivan.

But I see no reason to have such a forgiving attitude with McPhearson and not be willing to give Sullivan another chance.

And I see no reason for the folks who claim \"character\" is important to be so hyped-up on McPhearson.

Some of you act as if Sullivan ate your first-born child.

In the end ... I agree ... fans should be more upset with Sully. He was paid a lot of money to come in and give 100% And that\'s the ONLY reason anyone should be upset.

No one has a right to be upset with Sully for any other reason. Unless you can tell me one that I haven\'t heard .. ;)







[Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]

Riddle me this:?
 

Whoa. I have a \"right\" to be upset at anyone for whatever reason I choose. If I wanna be mad at Sullivan cause I got fired from my job, that\'s up to me. It may not be reasonable to be mad at Sully for this, but I have a right to be upset with anyone I want for any reason I want, as does everyone else. Right and reason shouldn\'t be confused here.

Riddle me this:?
 

\"Right\" - \"Reason\" - \"Whatever\" -- ;)

I don\'t blame you for being upset with Sullivan. But if you\'re mad for the wrong reasons then maybe it\'s clouding your judgement a little bit? Not saying it is. Not saying it isn\'t.

I\'m just trying to be fair, here. Ultimately, what happens to Jonathan Sullivan has no effect on my life. But given everything I know, I think he deservers ONE more chance.

He (Sullivan) is on his last leg in New Orleans. He knows it. Haslett knows it. The fans know it.

Personally, I am pulling for the guy. And I hope McPhearson is the next John Elway. If so, then Brooks needs to find a new team. And I ain\'t kidding. :exclam:

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]