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-   -   Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? (https://blackandgold.com/saints/8904-defense-scheme-talent-been-problem.html)

GumboBC 04-28-2005 12:55 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Ever since Rick Venturi installed HIS defense, it seems no matter what players we have, we still can't stop the run or the pass.

We've had some pretty good playes on the defense. Norman Hand, Grady Jackson, Charles Grant, Darren Howard ??

But, I have constantly seen players out of position and looking very confused as to where they are supposed to be!

Hey, guys ... I know we haven't had the most talent in the world on defense ... but don't you guys think our defense should have been much better?

Do you think Ventui's shemes has been too complicated and maybe that's been a big part of the problem? Or maybe it's just a poorly designed sheme.

I've wrestled with this idea before ... Is it the players or the scheme?

During the last 4-games, I saw a change in defense scheme and all of a sudden players seemed to be in postion to make a play?



[Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]

4saintspirit 04-28-2005 01:06 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
I\'d say 50-50. Our talent has not been good enough to be a top notch defense but our scheme has not been built around the talent we do have --- A few years back we had some talent (a great pass rush) but when the QB had time he picked apart our db\'s. The scheme was okay -- pressure the QB to hide our deficiencies in the backfield With that in mind the last couple of years our scheme has not done this -- it plays a conservative defense thinking the scheme will offset our talent deficiencies -- I think had we played more agressive with our front line and blitz packages our defense would actually have looked better -

Danno 04-28-2005 01:15 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
90% Scheme
10% players.
And everyone knows it. Thats why Venturi was replaced (sort of).

baronm 04-28-2005 01:35 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Quote:

90% Scheme
10% players.
And everyone knows it. Thats why Venturi was replaced (sort of).
You know I\'ve been thinking this same thing gumbo--good question...but I think these numbers are close-I\'m going to go 75-25 though..

I think venturi is more a problem than the players-though injuries have riddled our ranks.

I\'m not sure if they are too complicated or just plain not very good though..

good question.

GumboBC 04-28-2005 01:51 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
To be honest, I really don\'t know which is a bigger problem. Talent or scheme .. that is the question?

Most of the time - I believe it\'s almost always talent that is the problem. Not coahing. But Venturi\'s scheme has me wondering?!

3 guys who I believe know a little bit about defense are Tony Dungy, Marvin Lewis, and Ray Rhodes.

Tony Dungy - Colts Defense: 29th
Ray Rhodes - Seattle Defense: 26th
Marvin Lewis - Bengals Defense: 19th

Not that those guys have anything to do with the Saints\' defense, but I think it shows that great coaching can\'t overcome a lack of talent.

The question is .. how good should the talent we have be? What kind of results should we be getting with the defensive talent we have?

Hmmmmmmm ..... :D

ScottyRo 04-28-2005 01:54 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
both are equally at fault.

If the players were good enough, they could overcome the scheme\'s weaknesses.

If the scheme was good enough, it could hide the players\' faults.

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by ScottyRo]

baronm 04-28-2005 02:14 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Quote:

both are equally at fault.

If the players were good enough, they could overcome the scheme\'s weaknesses.

If the scheme was good enough, it could hide the players\' faults.

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by ScottyRo]
Agreed-however a really good coordinator will draft players who fit his s heme or change the scheme to fit the players..sometimes I think we are tying to fit square pegs into round holes.

JKool 04-28-2005 03:54 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
I say both, but I don\'t think this kind of question is a very clear question.

Scheme versus Players - there is no answer.

Good shemes hide bad players, make mediocre players better, make great players great.

Good players make some schemes possible, bad players don\'t. Good players make good schemes great.

Great scheme + great players = great defense
Bad scheme + bad players = bad defense
Great scheme + bad players = ?
Bad scheme + great players = ?

To make matters worse goodness and badness of schemes and players are on a continuum. Thus, there aren\'t merely four cases (as I\'ve noted above) there are an infinite number of cases.

I just don\'t see how you can answer this question without details. In our case, I see some good players and some bad schemeing. A scheme that allows Ruff to be in coverage on Alge Crumpler - is that a bad scheme or merely a bad play call.

This question isn\'t as simple as it first seems, and I suspect there is actually no way to answer it without a veridical assessment of the players and a play book (with the details of the scheme).

GumboBC 04-28-2005 03:59 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
JKool --

You really think things out before you answer. And I appreciate the effort.

Basically, I agree with you. Which is why I said \" I really didn\'t know what the bigger problem was\". (scheme or talent)

That\'s the million-dollar question in my mind.

I do think BOTH are part of the problem. But that wasn\'t the question.

The question was: Which is the bigger problem?

Is it 50/50? 70/30? 80/20?

Hard to say. For me, it\'s impossible to say.

But, this is an opinion board. And in my opinion .. It\'s about 60/40. With \"scheme\" being 60%.

BrooksMustGo 04-28-2005 04:04 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Quote:

Great scheme + great players = great defense
Bad scheme + bad players = bad defense
Great scheme + bad players = ?
Bad scheme + great players = ?
Gregor Mendel\'s theory of defense?

JKool 04-28-2005 04:05 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
If it is impossible to say, why have an opinion one way or the other? Why not just say \"it is impossible to say\"? That seems like a reasonable position; i.e. it is my opinion that it is impossible, since it is impossible to say.

I think we should blame Venturi for his snotty play calling. When Crumpler scores on a slant up the middle and Ruff is the only guy within 10 yards - that might be a scheme problem, but it is certainly the wrong defensive play call, isn\'t it? Of course, you can\'t just play three deep the whole game either - so even this is a tough question.

Venturi is a harm to the defense, but it is very difficult (if not impossible from our position) to say if it is his scheme, game plan, or individual play calls. Our players just aren\'t that bad that it is obviously a case of Bad scheme + bad players.

JKool 04-28-2005 04:06 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
BMG.

:xxrotflmao:

GumboBC 04-28-2005 04:12 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Quote:

If it is impossible to say, why have an opinion one way or the other? Why not just say \"it is impossible to say\"? That seems like a reasonable position; i.e. it is my opinion that it is impossible, since it is impossible to say.
Just because something is impossible for me to answer with 100% certainty ... that doesn\'t mean I can\'t have an opinion on it. Does it?

Football isn\'t black and white. There are no clear-cut answers.

But that doesn\'t stop us from speculating.

Here\'s another one ...

Who is most responsilble for us not being able to stop the run?

1. Linebackers
2. Defensive Tackles

This is impossible to answer for me. But, I still have an opinion on it.

See my point?

We can\'t just ask the questions that are easy to answer. You\'ve got to ask the tough questions. I know the answers to the easy questions. ;)

JKool 04-28-2005 04:24 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
I think it is impossible to know without more information than we are likely to get in the case of scheme. I wasn\'t talking about \"knowing with certainty\" - that standard is too high - no one has that.

Unlike blame distributions of LB\'s and DT\'s where arguments can be made that make one assessment of blame more probable than others. In that case, your \"opinion\" is based on argument, observation, and other such good reasons.

In the case of schemes, I was suggesting (and you seemed to be agreeing) that there isn\'t/wasn\'t sufficient information to decide. Thus, the case of schemes - where it may be impossible (and I believe without access to the play call, play book, scheme design and veridical player assessment IS impossible) to make observations that would distinguish player blame from scheme from play call - there is no reason to have an opinion about the blame that falls on the scheme other than mere gut feel or some other such unreliable source.

To summarize:
1. Evidence is available to form an opinion on DT vs. LB.
2. No evidence wrt to scheme is available at all, since we don\'t have access to the play calls.
Thus,
3. Opinions make sense for 1, but not for 2.

Though I agree the evidence is dim and difficult to interpret and assess in 1.

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by JKool]

GumboBC 04-28-2005 04:30 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
JKool --

I just thought it was a bit odd for you to ask this:

Quote:

If it is impossible to say, why have an opinion one way or the other?
When I said it was impossible for me to say, what I meant was that I really wasn\'t sure and my \"opinion\" would just be an educated guess BASED on MY observations. In other words ... I COULD BE VERY WRONG.

I just didn\'t want folks to get the idea that I thought I knew one way or the other.

I am fascinated with the qestion, though. I really feel like when our scheme changed during the last 4 games our defense improved. Which would suggest the \"scheme\" was a big part of the problem.

IF that is the case, then I feel much better about our defense. But, I don\'t know. Which is why I wanted to get some opinions from everyone.

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]

JKool 04-28-2005 04:46 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Gumbo,

Here is another way of putting the problem:

In the case of the DT/LB question, observations can be used, assessments of player abilities and so on.

In the case of the scheme, it is impossible to observe the scheme independently of the play call. Unlike observations of the players, which you can make based on good inferences about the type of play call, the plays, the players in general and so on. There is no way to isolate the scheme from the play call AND you only have moderately good inferences actual play call (if that).

Thus, our information about the scheme is not only derivative on our information about the playcall, we have very, very poor access to the playcall itself. This is very different from things like players\' speed, taclking ability, playmaking ability and so on.

In fact, I\'m willing to go so far as to say that opinions about which players are better than others are reasonable (in that there are identifiable reasons, evidence, and argument) and that opinions about the goodness of our scheme (without accurate access to the playcall, playbook, and defensive design - which we\'re not going to get) are actually not based on anything that would constitute a reason to believe.

Put another way, what is the reason you believe it is 60/40? If the answer is observation, then I ask you how you observed the scheme, without knowing the playcall? If it is nothing, then I say your opinion should be \"I don\'t know the blame distribution\". If it is something else, I\'d be interested in hearing that (not because I think there couldn\'t be anything else, but because I can\'t think of anything else).

GumboBC 04-28-2005 05:09 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
JKool --

I agree with the principle of your arguement.

I don\'t know what the play-call was on defense and therefore I am at a disadvantage when commenting on the \"fault\" of the defensive \"scheme\".

But by watching players consistently out of position I believe, based on that, it is very likely that the sheme is either overly complicated or poorly designed.

It\'s true, we could have a bunch of stupid players who can\'t pick up on the scheme. That could be it.

But given that we\'ve tried several players at several different positions, I believe the \"scheme\" has been a big part of the problem.

Don\'t really need a playbook for that. But, again, I could be very wrong. I don\'t know what player is supposed to do what. Not exactly anyway.

And, again, if I had the facts, then I would state it as a fact. But, I don\'t. Which is why I\'m stating my opinion based on the reasons previously listed.


JKool 04-28-2005 05:23 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Quote:

But by watching players consistently out of position I believe, based on that, it is very likely that the sheme is either overly complicated or poorly designed.
You accurately assess some problems with this, but I\'d like to point out another.

Every defensive scheme has weaknesses, and every defensive call has at least one hole. Thus, when it appears that a player is out of position, it could be because the particular call was bad (thus, he wasn\'t out of position, but merely too far away because of the play design) OR it could be the scheme (not enough players rotating to the right places or not accounting properly for how long it would take THAT player to rotate to position). Being out of position is actually the player\'s fault of course (since if he were in position, he would have been there to make the play - roughly).

Since you cannot tell if it was a weakness in the scheme, a hole in the defensive play, or a player merely not doing what he was supposed to, I suggest there isn\'t good reason to judge that it was one of these without access to the playcall, playbook, or first hand report by the player or coach about his position.

Perhaps we\'re just disagreeing about what the \"scheme\" is? The scheme is the the basic packages in which the defensive plays are designed. The individual plays (and not the scheme) are what are run on the field. Which play is run is called before the snap. We\'re on the same page about that, right?

I think without the playcall and playbook, you aren\'t merely at a disadvantage to determining the fault of the scheme. I think it is impossible.

It is possible to judge the poorness of playcalling and of players with access to observations, comments by players, your own judgement of what the call should have been, etc. That is a realm where opinion makes senese to me.

FireVenturi 04-28-2005 05:51 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
90% scheme
10% players

example 3rd and 6, and we giive a 8 yd cushion :casstet:

JKool 04-28-2005 06:57 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
FV, isn\'t that just a bad play call? Couldn\'t it be the player lined up deeper than he was supposed to? Couldn\'t it be because the player isn\'t very good that he had to line up so far off?

I think our problem is probably more like this 70/30: play calling, scheme, and game plan, 70, players, 30. But I largely think that because I feel the coaching/scheming/planning is critical to the success of the team (moreso than the individual players). However, other than my simple rule that proper game planning is more critical to victory and my coaching experience, I don\'t seem much more evidence for my split.

Zulu--King 04-28-2005 08:47 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
I have another angle. Venturi is responsible for:

a) finding a scheme to fit the talent at hand

b) evaulating draft and FA talent, and being assertive with the FO about getting the correct players to fit his scheme

I\'d give him mediocre grades on both counts. Get rid of Venturi, and get a DC who knows talent, and can adapt his schemes to each opponent.

I saw Venturi say after one game that we had to play a base D with only about 3 different plays, due to players being out of position so often. That\'s his fault. His obsessive need for speed won out over picking smart players on D.

Now, the sad part. We don\'t even nibble at the fast, (while still being bright) players in free agency. Dyson, Spikes, on & on. That\'s his fault. Get rid of Venturi. I\'m not saying that he had to be a Romeo, but it seems that 31 other DCs are better than him.

I was done with Venturi, when I saw Moss 40 yrds downfield coverd by an LB.

JKool 04-28-2005 08:49 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Nicely put Zulu. I think I agree.

[Edited on 29/4/2005 by JKool]

LKelley67 04-28-2005 11:03 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
good thread, i appreciate meaningful dialogue over issues such as this.

just a couple of cents to contribute... as pointed out you can come to some opinion of talent from empirical data and observation. i look at the individual components of what the defense was last year. factor in personnel moves (mckenzie, bockwoldt, etc.) and performance changes (fakhir improves, thomas declines, etc). then compare that unit to others in the league. when i do that, i conclude that there was certainly enough talent to be better than the 32nd ranked d. maybe not enough to be good or even avearge, but say 24th, as good as san francisco. if there was that much talent and ability in the players i am left only to think that it was for reasons other than the players the defense was THAT bad. as to the specifics, game planning, personnel utilization, motivation, schemes or play calling, etc... we do not have have that info. whatever it was though,i put a greater fault on the coaching and management. the defense was ranked 11th in 2000 and 19th in 2001. venturi was installed as defensive coordinator in 2002. there have been plenty enough poor personnel moves but nonetheless since then the defense has gone from 28th in 2002, to 18th in \'03, to 32nd last year. the players have changed but my observation that whether they have been better or worse the defensive look seems weaker.

WhoDat 04-29-2005 09:09 AM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
I look at it like this:

Our players are over the last few years have not been all that talented. I would say that playing at an average level they are good enough to put our defense in the 16th to 20th range. With a great coach, they could be 12th or so. With a terrible coach, they could be dead last. Which do we have? :)

Both players and talent have been problems on defense. However, it seems to me that coaching has been a bigger problem.

Proof (sort of): Haslett\'s first two years in N.O., up until the final 4 game crash of 2001 at least, Ron Zook had the defense in the top half of the league and leading it in sacks both years. In 2002, the defense dropped to 22nd or 25th (I can\'t remember), with Venturi. It\'s only gotten worse, despite a lot of new players. Venturi is poo.

LKelley67 04-29-2005 09:53 AM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
see above who...
11th--->19th--->Venturi 28th--->18th--->32nd

FireVenturi 04-29-2005 06:29 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
venturi needs to take a trip to the board room

FireVenturi 04-29-2005 06:31 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Quote:

FV, isn\'t that just a bad play call? Couldn\'t it be the player lined up deeper than he was supposed to? Couldn\'t it be because the player isn\'t very good that he had to line up so far off?

I think our problem is probably more like this 70/30: play calling, scheme, and game plan, 70, players, 30. But I largely think that because I feel the coaching/scheming/planning is critical to the success of the team (moreso than the individual players). However, other than my simple rule that proper game planning is more critical to victory and my coaching experience, I don\'t seem much more evidence for my split.
What about continually playin cover 3 the first 12 games letting teams dink and dunk us to death, i understand with ambrose/thomas we coudn\'t always man up, but at least try a cover 2 for cryin out loud!!!!!!

JKool 04-30-2005 01:46 PM

Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?
 
Sounds like a scheme problem.


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