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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I am with WhoDat. Major deals being made and our minor deals have not dealt with our issues. Defense has not improved. Nothing major on Offense. I see Spikes is gone,Price gets snagged....what have we gotten? I hope I am ...

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Old 03-08-2003, 06:35 PM   #11
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I am with WhoDat. Major deals being made and our minor deals have not dealt with our issues. Defense has not improved. Nothing major on Offense. I see Spikes is gone,Price gets snagged....what have we gotten? I hope I am not looking at a major frustration this season. And the loss of Jake is a big loss.
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Old 03-09-2003, 05:38 AM   #12
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The reason why I\'m not happy but quite content with what Loomis has done so far in the off-season - probably not very popular on this board: The Saints don\'t have the \"soft incentives\" some other clubs have. Things like the climate for teams like San Diego, San Francisco, Oakland, Miami or Tampa Bay; the lure of the big city (New York) and a history of winning teams (Bills, Broncos) or a certain reputation (Romanowski to the Raiders is simply a perfect fit). The Saints won\'t be having proven veterans playing for the league minimum so they can get another ring, if they go after big name free agents they would have to overpay them (about the same as the Lions and I\'m not sure they were very reasonable with their deals this year).
We don\'t know if Spikes maybe had a visit to New Orleans planned for the next week, but the Saints simply weren\'t his first choice. He desperately wanted to win and felt like the Bills were a club that could guarantee that. Loomis would have paid him the same kind of money (IMHO), but it wouldn\'t have been enough, the late season collapse didn\'t help - especially losing to the Bengals. Loomis may have had discussions with his agent or himself - we\'ll never know.
As for blaming Benson: They guy gets so much credit from me for keeping the Saints in NO he can do almost anything before I jump on his back. Okay, he isn\'t a fan of the monster trade or deals, but that\'s a way of doing business - his way. It means the Saints probably won\'t get into cap hell any time soon. It\'s not like he\'s trying to save money, the Saints won\'t be significantly under the cap so Benson can make more money off the team. And I take him over Snyder every day.

\"What is Wal-Mart? Is it like they sell wall stuff?\"
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Old 03-09-2003, 04:43 PM   #13
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I totally agrre with nocloning
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Old 03-09-2003, 05:30 PM   #14
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nocloning, I have no problem at all with what you are saying, but what I am talking about is addressing needs. Loomis is fine. If you think a rookie draft pick(less $$) is going to come in and create the high impact we need at certain positions,you are wrong. You say something about another ring???? I would like to have one. You have to spend money to make money. At any job,if you need an employee for a position ,you hire one. We have not hired impact players for our needs. Woodson would be a nice addition, and money well spent. There is nothing wrong with Gandy,Ruff,or Ambrose. But are they major upgrades? I have no problem with Benson either. Also,will we let Turley walk,kinda like Roaf?

Don't want 'em to get your goat....don't show 'em where it's hid
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Old 03-10-2003, 08:13 AM   #15
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\"You have to spend money to make money.\"

Yeah, tell that to the New England Patriots or the Minnesota Twins.

And they won\'t let Turley walk, I would have a hard time believing that.

And for those that were wanting Spikes in the worst way, I was more for obtaining Colvin than Spikes, and he\'s still out there, although I don\'t know if he\'s planned on coming to NO for a visit or not.

[Edited on 10/3/2003 by BlackandBlue]
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Old 03-10-2003, 08:51 AM   #16
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I mostly agree with subguy. I understand the oppostie position - that signing guys like Ruff creates depth and leaves us in a flexible position to sign more players. However, I don\'t feel that Ruff and Ambrose significantly improve our defensive talent. With a D-coordinator who is unable to impact the game in our favor with his schemes, talent is the ONLY thing that is going to make our defense better.

The Saints are doing what they\'ve done since Haslett got here. They\'re taking chances. I applaud them for being brave, but I still think it is the wrong move. If Orlando Ruff turns out to be the next undiscovered Joe Horn for the Saints then I\'ll eat me words. But if he\'s Albert Connell, think about how screwed we\'ll be. The jury is out on Ruff. We just have to wait and see. Ambrose seems a lot like Pathon to me. He has a name, but he isn\'t going to amount to a whole lot. Consistently average - that\'s about how I\'d describe him. Now, with the what fourth or fifth most money available under the cap, 5 early draft picks, and players that can be traded (turley) or cut (Hand) to free up a lot more money, are these two players the defensive \"upgrade\" that you all expected? I expected us to \"reload\" a la the St. Louis Rams a few years ago. This does NOT look lke that in the slightest bit to me.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #17
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I also agree with nonclone. You cannot fix a defense by focusing primarily on the high priced free agents. SUre, I would like one big signing on d (dexter jackson or lassitter...however, i would love to get colvin and agree with whoever mentioned him). We ABSOLUTELY MUST lock up horn and howard to extensions though. I would hate to see us sign a couple of defensive guys and then one year later, we cannot afford horn or howard. Keep your own good ones before you break the bank on guys you have never been on this team. As for the draft, that is exactly the way you build a team. We are not one missing piece away from the puzzle and if Turley goes, having four picks in the first two rounds can really build a defense that will be good and together for a number of years.
I would like to ask anyone who is not happy with the guys we got so far who they would have liked to see us get. As I said earlier, Gandy is just as good as Turley and enables us to get another 1 or 2 pick by trading. How is that not a great signing? Ambrose came at a fairly reasonable price. Look at what Dre Bly (a guy not as good as Ambrose but younger) got from Detroit. We cannot have wilson or fakir brown on the field ever again in a regualr season game. Depth at cb is vital to a team. Who else at cb is even out there that would be as good, as reaosnably priced as Ambrose. Plus, he has been here before (so we feel good that he is not a headcase and can come in and play). Finally, Ruff prbably came cheap (I am not sure what the tewrms werre). He is supposed to stuff the run, something charlie clemmons just could not do. Now, we got ruff at a good price (I assume). So now if ej henderson is there at `17, 18 we can take him and not feel too bad about it. With two picks in rd 1, we should be in a position to take the best guys there. SO, while I understand the frustration caused by the Saints apparent inaction at times, let\'s wait a month or two and see what else we do. OBVIOUSLY, if the Saints sat on millions in cap space going into next season, I like every other fan will be irrate. So keep up the good work Mickey.
One more note: My major worry with the season is that there are no good dt\'s on the market and no great dt may be there at 17. This is our biggest need and I wonder how we can fill it. This will really be the gage of how good Loomis is. If we go into next season with chase, hand, jackson and k smith again, I will be sick. So let\'s see if Mickey can get creative and trade up or something.
I am also not convinced that Venturi (or Haslett for that matter) is or ever was the right guy for this team. At least with Haslett, the highs have been real high but the lows have been real low. It baffles me how Venturi is a def coordinator in this league. I remember the Atlanta game at home last year. We need someone else calling the shots on d. Is Venturi the Carl Smith of the Haslett era?
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Old 03-10-2003, 12:07 PM   #18
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Truck - I understand where you\'re coming from, but c\'mon man. Do you really think that the Saints can keep the talent they\'ve drafted in the last two years plus another five or six guys from this year? No way. Maybe two or three years at best. It\'s very hard to keep a group of talented players together in this league, and the Saint recent history shows that they\'re not very interested in doing that.

Last year they didn\'t/couldn\'t resign or traded Glover, Johnson, Roaf, and Ricky. That basically represented ALL of our PROVEN talent other than Knight, Horn, Howard, and Turley. This year, they\'re letting Knight go and Turley may follow. Yet they were willing to drop $30+ mil on Brooks. My point is that they Saints don\'t go after established players. They also don\'t try to keep their own established players. Name a player who was an established starter when Ditka was here that is still on the team. Fontenot. Is that it? Howard maybe. I understand trying to build a team, but you cannot do that if you constantly let talented players go and replace them with draftees and second tier players.

I agree that the Gandy move was a good one. A good OFFENSIVE move. Our offense isn\'t the problem. Yeah Ruff was brought in to stop the run, just like the Lunch Bunch was last year to stop the run. That worked out well huh? They\'re getting rid of Knight b/c they don\'t think he has the speed to cover deep, yet they sign Ruff and Ambrose, two guys considered to be slow at their positions. Haslett talked all about getting faster on defense at the end of the season. We haven\'t gotten any faster. Our talent level, in my opinion, has gone up minimally if at all. Ruff is better than Clemons, but whoever will fill in for Knight will probably not be as good this year. Ambrose adds depth. Even with five picks all used only on defense, I doubt you\'re going to see a lot of players who can make an impact before the end of the season if at all in their first year. So we\'ll have a top ten offense and a defense that\'s 20th instead of 26th. That\'s not exactly exciting for me.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 03-10-2003, 01:33 PM   #19
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You\'re absolutely right gator, BUT...

First, the bigger question might be why is it that our stars all have \"chemistry\" problems, but back ups and players who aren\'t featured don\'t? That\'s a bit suspicious to me.

Secondly, you\'re proving my point in a round about way. There are three things, in my mind, that make a player want to play for your team. Money, respect, and a chance for a ring. The Saints don\'t ever realistically offer the last of those. Your comments speak to my point. Once our players reach a certain level, we seem to have had enough of them. We DON\'T offer big time money. Yes, Glover, for example, was a cap hit. But did we ask him to restructure? Did we release him? Was he simply an UFA? I don\'t remember, but I do recall wondering why the Saints were making no attempt to resign him whatsoever. What did Glover get from Dallas? Was it more than what Hand is supposed to make this season? Is it considerably more than what we\'re paying Grady Jackson, or what we\'ll pay a first round DT?

Further, the fact that this team has not yet addressed Horn and Howard shows some level of disrespect to me. I can\'t speak for those guys, and I really don\'t know what kind of conversations have gone on. But it seems like whenever our good players near the end of their contracts, we always want to look around and see what else is available. Whatever your take on that type of behavior, it is often viewed by players as disrespectful.

Again, we\'re back to my original point. This organization does very little to sign big name talent. Further, once a Saints player reaches a certain performance level (thus increasing his salary requirements) the Saints seem content to get rid of him and start another \"project.\" The new guy plays until he\'s good enough to want a bigger salary then they let him go and the cycle starts again. I\'m wondering if we aren\'t becoming the consumate feeder team for the real contenders of the league.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 03-10-2003, 04:31 PM   #20
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Rice/Brown in Oakland... Horn is a Pro Bowler. He is head and shoulders above Stallworth (right now) and Pathon. He\'s a big part of the reason that this team has won any games the past three years. Pay him well. He easily has three or more good years left in him.
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