Uh Oh
 

Well, I'm usually a pretty realistic guy, and I'd like to think that I err on the side of optimism, but I can't shake this feeling of dread. I know the season is still a long ways away. I know that there's a lot left in free agency and the draft. Still, I just don't think the Saints are doing what needs to be done to make a run at the Super Bowl.

Ruff, Ambrose, and Gandy aren't big upgrades. I don't know if Gandy is really a better player than Turley. Ruff is better than Clemons, but still not the kind of impact player we need at MLB. Ambrose is a good third corner, but I think Craver could have been just as impactful. And again, another off-season where we take chances with "could-be" players and give away guys who are solid (Turley will probably go, Knight, Delhomme, etc.).

In any case, I don't see our defense improving markedly. Certainly, I don't believe that it will improve more than the other offenses in our division will. Vick's another year older and now he has Peerless Price and Jamal Anderson is talking about coming back. Tampa played very well on offense late in the season after we faced them, and they have the potential to get better via the draft alone. Carolina will certainly improve if they sign Smith or Davis at tailback and have Delhomme at QB. Atlanta, Tampa, and Carolina all have a very legitimate chance to be above .500, and really they all should be. Carolina won 4 out of their last 5 last season and ended up 7-9.

I hate to be pessimistic but I can see us going 9-7 again (no better than 3-3 in the division) and ending up out of the playoffs and last in our division behind the 12-4 Falcons, 11-5 Bucs, and 9-7 Panthers (who sweep us and that's why they finish ahead of us). Frankly, I really hope I'm wrong. I wish I felt more optimistic, but I just don't see this team making the off-season moves I think it needs to make... and only a few weeks ago I was so optimistic about the moves we could make to get better. Is it just me, or does it seem like they're not making the right moves? Is our division getting even better around us while we just kind of stay afloat?

Uh Oh
 

WhoDat, I understand your pessimistic points, however it is still early. The Saints have never been big players for top-notch free agents. We as fans should know that first-hand. I\'ve never seen the Saints sign someone like that. It\'s always been 2nd or 3rd tier free agents that the front office has gone after. I agree that the Saints haven\'t done enough in free agency, but there is still some talent available that could fill some voids. Plus, with the ongoing saga of Kyle Turley, the Saints are having to play it smart in case they can\'t unload him. If they fail to do so, then they won\'t have the cap space for their draft picks AND a couple more free agents, even if they cut Norman Hand. Let us not get to down about the Saints just yet. The draft could turn out to be interesting and we may pick up some steals. There are other possibilities that the Saints can persue in free agency and not have to spend an arm and a leg on. Yes, there are some top notch FA\'s that I\'d have love to seen in the Dome next year, but I\'m also a realist. The chances of the Saints landing some of these people were slim-to-none. We\'ve been lucky in the past with some of the unproven FA\'s that have signed with the team and performed well....(Joe Horn, Willie Jackson, Charlie Clemons(1 season), etc...) The Saints are always going to try and get more for their buck. They will never overspend in free agency. Realistically, if one of those top notch players had been signed for the bucks they were wanting, the Saints would have been put into a position where they couldn\'t sign other \"role players\" or draftees. As far as Orlando Ruff is concerned, I think he could be the next \"Joe Horn signing\". We all know what \"Hollywood\" has done since he\'s joined the club. I think it possible that Ruff can do similar on the defensive side of the ball. I may be totally off base with this, but then again, it\'s only an opinion. I won\'t start feeling down about the Saints until the season starts and the numbers in the \"L\" column start piling up.

Uh Oh
 

Hey man, like I said I know it\'s early. What I don\'t get is that the Saints DO spend money on free agents. It just never seems to be ones we need. Look at what they spent on Gandy. That kind of money would have secured Woodson or Spikes. Sure we would have been stuck with Turley, but cutting Hand does make a difference. A big one.

I hear what you\'re saying, and I can\'t disagree with any of it. It\'s just frustrating and ominous. If we don\'t improve out talent on defense significantly between now and the start of the season, kiss the playoffs goodbye - b/c we all know that our D-coordinator and his \"system\" aren\'t going to make up for what we lack in talent. If anything, Venturi will simply magnify our weaknesses.

Uh Oh
 

WhoDat, did someone steal your password? Wasn\'t that you who was fiercely opposed to my little \"Our defense will stink this year, maybe not as much as last, but still\" remark and who predicted that our \"D\" would end the season in the top half even with Venturi ...
Or is it just your evil twin?

Uh Oh
 

I\'m experiencing a double personality disorder. ;) Actually, I think you\'re right. Like I said, I was optimistic about the off-season moves I thought that they could/would make. None of those have happened, and don\'t appear to be in the future. Thus, the talent I thought we would have won\'t materialize, so I agree now with your earlier statements. Our defense will probably stink - unless some other free agents are brought in with more talent than the ones we\'ve signed thus far.

Uh Oh
 

I\'ll agree with you that the Saints have not signed the type of impact players we need on defense, however, I like what they have done.
They\'ve gone out and signed solid players at positions that we needed help with. But this would only make sense through the vision that I have of what should happen during the next month. If the Saints were to pull off a trade of Turley for a first rounder this year, that would leave us with three first round draft picks. Minnesota is looking to trade down, so if the Saints could some how take one of thier 1st rounders packaged with some other picks and trade up into the top 10, they could very well come out of this draft with good young starters at CB, MLB, and DT. If those players are not available at the time of the pick, the Saints have the option of going with the best player available, because we have those solid free agent pickups in place, ready to go.

Uh Oh
 

While I share WhoDat\'s sense of dread for the upcoming season, I am inclined ot agree with BlackandBlue. I am encouraged by our signings and firmly believe in the Saints philosophy of not going out and breaking the bank on the \"big names.\" (Detroit- Hakim, Bly; Packers- Joe Johnson). The beginning of free agency usually is the prime time for overpaying guys (Plummer, Bly, Peerless Price). If we pay big bucks for anyone it should be to lock up 2 of our 3 best players- Howard and Horn. Our defense will take time to get it together (after all we are basically keeping our de\'s and revamping everything else) regardless of who we bring in here. On the FA front, I would like to see us get a backup qb, depth at o-line (guard, center positions) and a free safety. FS is the only position I think the Saints should maybe overpay for- Lassitter or Dexter Jackson are the only guys worth getting in my mind. As for Turley, he wanted too much money and was not that good last year. WHile Gandy may not be an upgrade, he is certainly not a downgrade. I\'ll take Gandy (at a more reasonable price) and a 1st or 2nd draft choice over Turley any day of the week.

Uh Oh
 

I think everyone is making some valid points. I am happy with what the Saints have done so far. I\'m a fan of Turley, but they really do need to trade him. He\'s gonna leave at the end of next year anyhow and I\'d like to see us get something for him. If they can get a first for him, then they can trade up and pick up Newman from Kansas State. All of the scouts seem to agree that this kid has tremendous ability and I don\'t think I\'ve heard anyone even mention the possibility that this kid could be a flop. I really would have liked to have seen Takeo Spikes in the black and gold next year, and it disappoints me some that management didn\'t make a play for him. Let\'s just hope they\'ve got some other plan that they are pusuing. In all, I think everyone agrees that it\'s still early. Management hasn\'t been idle, but I don\'t think they\'ve been quite as agressive as any of us loyal saints fans would like. But the steps are toward the positive. Let\'s wait until after the draft and then we can make a more solid determination of what this whole period has become.

Uh Oh
 

It is certainly still early. There\'s plenty of time before next season... the point I am trying to make is that the players they\'ve added to the defense thus far don\'t seem to be ones that improve our talent level very much, in my mind. I really don\'t see our defense overachieving with Venturi at the helm, thus, unless they sign some other more talented players, I don\'t see our defense being all that much better - if any.

The NFC South could be the toughest division in all of football next season. With all of our divisional rivals on the up-and-up, putting the same team out on the field next year isn\'t going to cut it. We came into the off-season with what, the fourth or fifth best cap position? So we\'ve got a lot of money, players to trade, and five of the first 80 picks in the draft and we aren\'t going to significantly improve our talent on defense? There\'s no tomorrow in the NFL today. You play for the season you\'re in, and right now, it looks as if we will have a third year where we squander away the most talented offense this team has ever had b/c Benson, Loomis, and Haslett would rather take chances on second and third tier players than sign proven stars. That to me is unacceptible. We should all know how rare this type of offensive talent is for a Saints team. We\'re wasting our chances and given the Saints history, this type of potential only comes around once every ten or fifteen years.

Uh Oh
 

Whodat, your second paragraph says it all and I agree. Gandy, Ruff and Ambrose are upgrades. Not big upgrades but upgrades nonetheless.. Yes, Gandy is better than Turley b/c LT is Gandys\' natural position and Turley was a LT transplant, Eventhough we are not finished yet I can say this \"it is going to be hell going against the Saints this year.\" Why? Upgrades, and we got four so far.

Uh Oh
 

I am with WhoDat. Major deals being made and our minor deals have not dealt with our issues. Defense has not improved. Nothing major on Offense. I see Spikes is gone,Price gets snagged....what have we gotten? I hope I am not looking at a major frustration this season. And the loss of Jake is a big loss.

Uh Oh
 

The reason why I\'m not happy but quite content with what Loomis has done so far in the off-season - probably not very popular on this board: The Saints don\'t have the \"soft incentives\" some other clubs have. Things like the climate for teams like San Diego, San Francisco, Oakland, Miami or Tampa Bay; the lure of the big city (New York) and a history of winning teams (Bills, Broncos) or a certain reputation (Romanowski to the Raiders is simply a perfect fit). The Saints won\'t be having proven veterans playing for the league minimum so they can get another ring, if they go after big name free agents they would have to overpay them (about the same as the Lions and I\'m not sure they were very reasonable with their deals this year).
We don\'t know if Spikes maybe had a visit to New Orleans planned for the next week, but the Saints simply weren\'t his first choice. He desperately wanted to win and felt like the Bills were a club that could guarantee that. Loomis would have paid him the same kind of money (IMHO), but it wouldn\'t have been enough, the late season collapse didn\'t help - especially losing to the Bengals. Loomis may have had discussions with his agent or himself - we\'ll never know.
As for blaming Benson: They guy gets so much credit from me for keeping the Saints in NO he can do almost anything before I jump on his back. Okay, he isn\'t a fan of the monster trade or deals, but that\'s a way of doing business - his way. It means the Saints probably won\'t get into cap hell any time soon. It\'s not like he\'s trying to save money, the Saints won\'t be significantly under the cap so Benson can make more money off the team. And I take him over Snyder every day.

Uh Oh
 

I totally agrre with nocloning ;)

Uh Oh
 

nocloning, I have no problem at all with what you are saying, but what I am talking about is addressing needs. Loomis is fine. If you think a rookie draft pick(less $$) is going to come in and create the high impact we need at certain positions,you are wrong. You say something about another ring???? I would like to have one. You have to spend money to make money. At any job,if you need an employee for a position ,you hire one. We have not hired impact players for our needs. Woodson would be a nice addition, and money well spent. There is nothing wrong with Gandy,Ruff,or Ambrose. But are they major upgrades? I have no problem with Benson either. Also,will we let Turley walk,kinda like Roaf?

Uh Oh
 

\"You have to spend money to make money.\"

Yeah, tell that to the New England Patriots or the Minnesota Twins.

And they won\'t let Turley walk, I would have a hard time believing that.

And for those that were wanting Spikes in the worst way, I was more for obtaining Colvin than Spikes, and he\'s still out there, although I don\'t know if he\'s planned on coming to NO for a visit or not.

[Edited on 10/3/2003 by BlackandBlue]

Uh Oh
 

I mostly agree with subguy. I understand the oppostie position - that signing guys like Ruff creates depth and leaves us in a flexible position to sign more players. However, I don\'t feel that Ruff and Ambrose significantly improve our defensive talent. With a D-coordinator who is unable to impact the game in our favor with his schemes, talent is the ONLY thing that is going to make our defense better.

The Saints are doing what they\'ve done since Haslett got here. They\'re taking chances. I applaud them for being brave, but I still think it is the wrong move. If Orlando Ruff turns out to be the next undiscovered Joe Horn for the Saints then I\'ll eat me words. But if he\'s Albert Connell, think about how screwed we\'ll be. The jury is out on Ruff. We just have to wait and see. Ambrose seems a lot like Pathon to me. He has a name, but he isn\'t going to amount to a whole lot. Consistently average - that\'s about how I\'d describe him. Now, with the what fourth or fifth most money available under the cap, 5 early draft picks, and players that can be traded (turley) or cut (Hand) to free up a lot more money, are these two players the defensive \"upgrade\" that you all expected? I expected us to \"reload\" a la the St. Louis Rams a few years ago. This does NOT look lke that in the slightest bit to me.

Uh Oh
 

I also agree with nonclone. You cannot fix a defense by focusing primarily on the high priced free agents. SUre, I would like one big signing on d (dexter jackson or lassitter...however, i would love to get colvin and agree with whoever mentioned him). We ABSOLUTELY MUST lock up horn and howard to extensions though. I would hate to see us sign a couple of defensive guys and then one year later, we cannot afford horn or howard. Keep your own good ones before you break the bank on guys you have never been on this team. As for the draft, that is exactly the way you build a team. We are not one missing piece away from the puzzle and if Turley goes, having four picks in the first two rounds can really build a defense that will be good and together for a number of years.
I would like to ask anyone who is not happy with the guys we got so far who they would have liked to see us get. As I said earlier, Gandy is just as good as Turley and enables us to get another 1 or 2 pick by trading. How is that not a great signing? Ambrose came at a fairly reasonable price. Look at what Dre Bly (a guy not as good as Ambrose but younger) got from Detroit. We cannot have wilson or fakir brown on the field ever again in a regualr season game. Depth at cb is vital to a team. Who else at cb is even out there that would be as good, as reaosnably priced as Ambrose. Plus, he has been here before (so we feel good that he is not a headcase and can come in and play). Finally, Ruff prbably came cheap (I am not sure what the tewrms werre). He is supposed to stuff the run, something charlie clemmons just could not do. Now, we got ruff at a good price (I assume). So now if ej henderson is there at `17, 18 we can take him and not feel too bad about it. With two picks in rd 1, we should be in a position to take the best guys there. SO, while I understand the frustration caused by the Saints apparent inaction at times, let\'s wait a month or two and see what else we do. OBVIOUSLY, if the Saints sat on millions in cap space going into next season, I like every other fan will be irrate. So keep up the good work Mickey.
One more note: My major worry with the season is that there are no good dt\'s on the market and no great dt may be there at 17. This is our biggest need and I wonder how we can fill it. This will really be the gage of how good Loomis is. If we go into next season with chase, hand, jackson and k smith again, I will be sick. So let\'s see if Mickey can get creative and trade up or something.
I am also not convinced that Venturi (or Haslett for that matter) is or ever was the right guy for this team. At least with Haslett, the highs have been real high but the lows have been real low. It baffles me how Venturi is a def coordinator in this league. I remember the Atlanta game at home last year. We need someone else calling the shots on d. Is Venturi the Carl Smith of the Haslett era?

Uh Oh
 

Truck - I understand where you\'re coming from, but c\'mon man. Do you really think that the Saints can keep the talent they\'ve drafted in the last two years plus another five or six guys from this year? No way. Maybe two or three years at best. It\'s very hard to keep a group of talented players together in this league, and the Saint recent history shows that they\'re not very interested in doing that.

Last year they didn\'t/couldn\'t resign or traded Glover, Johnson, Roaf, and Ricky. That basically represented ALL of our PROVEN talent other than Knight, Horn, Howard, and Turley. This year, they\'re letting Knight go and Turley may follow. Yet they were willing to drop $30+ mil on Brooks. My point is that they Saints don\'t go after established players. They also don\'t try to keep their own established players. Name a player who was an established starter when Ditka was here that is still on the team. Fontenot. Is that it? Howard maybe. I understand trying to build a team, but you cannot do that if you constantly let talented players go and replace them with draftees and second tier players.

I agree that the Gandy move was a good one. A good OFFENSIVE move. Our offense isn\'t the problem. Yeah Ruff was brought in to stop the run, just like the Lunch Bunch was last year to stop the run. That worked out well huh? They\'re getting rid of Knight b/c they don\'t think he has the speed to cover deep, yet they sign Ruff and Ambrose, two guys considered to be slow at their positions. Haslett talked all about getting faster on defense at the end of the season. We haven\'t gotten any faster. Our talent level, in my opinion, has gone up minimally if at all. Ruff is better than Clemons, but whoever will fill in for Knight will probably not be as good this year. Ambrose adds depth. Even with five picks all used only on defense, I doubt you\'re going to see a lot of players who can make an impact before the end of the season if at all in their first year. So we\'ll have a top ten offense and a defense that\'s 20th instead of 26th. That\'s not exactly exciting for me.

Uh Oh
 

You\'re absolutely right gator, BUT...

First, the bigger question might be why is it that our stars all have \"chemistry\" problems, but back ups and players who aren\'t featured don\'t? That\'s a bit suspicious to me.

Secondly, you\'re proving my point in a round about way. There are three things, in my mind, that make a player want to play for your team. Money, respect, and a chance for a ring. The Saints don\'t ever realistically offer the last of those. Your comments speak to my point. Once our players reach a certain level, we seem to have had enough of them. We DON\'T offer big time money. Yes, Glover, for example, was a cap hit. But did we ask him to restructure? Did we release him? Was he simply an UFA? I don\'t remember, but I do recall wondering why the Saints were making no attempt to resign him whatsoever. What did Glover get from Dallas? Was it more than what Hand is supposed to make this season? Is it considerably more than what we\'re paying Grady Jackson, or what we\'ll pay a first round DT?

Further, the fact that this team has not yet addressed Horn and Howard shows some level of disrespect to me. I can\'t speak for those guys, and I really don\'t know what kind of conversations have gone on. But it seems like whenever our good players near the end of their contracts, we always want to look around and see what else is available. Whatever your take on that type of behavior, it is often viewed by players as disrespectful.

Again, we\'re back to my original point. This organization does very little to sign big name talent. Further, once a Saints player reaches a certain performance level (thus increasing his salary requirements) the Saints seem content to get rid of him and start another \"project.\" The new guy plays until he\'s good enough to want a bigger salary then they let him go and the cycle starts again. I\'m wondering if we aren\'t becoming the consumate feeder team for the real contenders of the league.

Uh Oh
 

Rice/Brown in Oakland... Horn is a Pro Bowler. He is head and shoulders above Stallworth (right now) and Pathon. He\'s a big part of the reason that this team has won any games the past three years. Pay him well. He easily has three or more good years left in him.

Uh Oh
 

I like the way the Saints handle free agency and the draft. Don\'t go nuts and over spend on FA\'s, build thru the draft, and add FA\'s here and there to plug holes.

Uh Oh
 

Gator, you sound like the 49ers a few years ago when they said Rice was done. YES, I KNOW - Rice and Brown are the exception. I agree. But you have a terrible misconception of how old starting receivers are in this league. Here\'s a few:

Rod Smith - entering 9th year.
Marvin Harrison - entering 8th.
Jimmy Smith - 10 years in the league.
Johnnie Morton - 9 years in.
Eddie Kennison - entering 8th year.
Troy Brown - starting his 11th year.
Wayne Chrebet - entering 9th year
Curtis Conway - 10 years in the league.
Frank Sanders - entering 9th year.
Shawn Jefferson - 12 years in the league.
Muhsin Muhammad - Entering 8th year.
Joey Galloway - Entering 9th year.
Bill Schroeder - Entering 9th year.
Amani Toomer - Going into 8th year.
Terrell Ownes - Entering 8th year.
Bobby Engram - Entering 8th year.
Isaac Bruce - 9 years in the league.
Keyshawn Johnson - Entering 8th year.
Keenan McCardell - 12 years in the league.

Go find me 20 better players receivers with less experience. These guys aren\'t all stars, but they\'re all solid.

Bottom line - Horn is an essential part of our offense RIGHT NOW. He\'s playing at a Pro Bowl level last time I checked. Until that changes, you do show him the money. Give him what he wants. If you give him a five year deal and his play falls off after two you restructure, trade him, or release him. The flip side is that he ends up being more ageless than any of us suspects and we\'ve got him under contract for five years or whatever. You back-load the contract and try to build in incentive-based pay as much as possible. But you extend his contract and you do it NOW. Hell, if they\'re willing to give Brooks a $30+ million contract based on his play are you really trying to tell me that HORN hasn\'t earned it?!?!

Uh Oh
 

PS - if you count Rice and Brown on my list of \"over-the-hill\" receivers, you\'ll find all four starting Pro Bowl receivers. Just thought I\'d point that out.

Uh Oh
 

Point taken WhoDat. Do I think the Saints can keep the guys they ahve plus all the new draftees for a number of years? Maybe. I sure as hell hope so and I thikthat is the way to build up a team- draft the guys you like that will fit in with what you want to do. It is certainly possible. However, I certainly understand your point that past history indicates the Saints will not do this. All I am saying is I hope they do this.
I do think that with the exception of glover, we made the right move getting rid of those other guys. I heard form several people that Rickey was one of the guys who really quit in the end of the 2001 season. I know he is great but he was worth trading for 2 #1 picks (I think almost any player is). Willie I am not even going to touch- we all know that saga. Joe Johnson was old, had been injured before and we let him go. A tough call there (it would be really easy to say we did the right thing b/c he got injured last year but that really is nto fair to say- no one can predict injuries). Did Grady work out? Not really. Or nto yet. But I think his contract called for a 1.5 mil signing bonus (2 year, fairly low base in first year). He came pretty cheap and was worth taking a flier on.
Does Horn deserve top 5 money? No. Top 12 money? Yes. If I were him I would be thinking: \"Hey, I have doen alot for this team and I want a new contract. If not, I am holding out.\" I don\'t want him to do this but if he is smart he will b/c we can always franchise him for a year or two after this in order to keep him for 2-3 more years. So let\'s set an example and treat a great player the right way by resigning him- maybe that will show other young guys onthe team we do not discard them after contract #1. Also, even if Horn is a number 2 or 3 receiver in 3 years, he is damn good and will continue to be for a few more years. I feel like this is a sure thing, as opposed to some fa\'s we may sign who never pan out (connell, dale carter so far, sloan). So I really want us to keep Joe. That being said, if Joe pulls an Orlando Pace and demands rificulous money the Saints need to play hardball and let him sit out, then franchise him. As for Howard, I seems like everyone agrees we should lock him up. Sammy Knight will e missed. I would like him to stay but he was not at an all pro levellast year and it just depends on how much $ he wants.
I know the Saints organization is not top flight by any means, but a lot of the guys who are unhappy seem to let this out when they are halfway out the door b/c they feel they should get more money.

Uh Oh
 

WhoDat, I am right with you. Whoever ragged me for the \"have to spend money to make money\" comment. I would like to site some more logical examples; Yankees(spend),Bengals(don\'t spend),Reds(don\'t spend), Bucaneers(didn\'t use to spend)Lakers(spend).

However excited everyone is for two first rounders;what impact players will we select withour picks? I guess the question is,are any of our picks going to alter our chances of making the playoffs or SB this year? No. We need to keep the few impact players we have now,and spend money on key\"over the hill\" impact players to make a change now. I site WhoDat,with Rice, hell the Raiders have always picked the \"has beens\". 49\'ers were not real young when they were successful. The other thing this does is give you an opportunity to win, and winning attracts better players, and makes your good ones want to stay.

I am afraid we have missed our opportunity to select any key improvements. I hope we keep Turley. Roaf walked big time. Rickey was given away,I would rather have Deuce, and Rickey had a big year and gave us a better pick...whew!

I would love to see Woodsen,he would be an impact player,hell we had Ambrose when he was a couple years younger. Gandy is a decent find, and I hope Ruff can help cure our ailing D.

Also, if anyone says the draft picks will help us re build that is nonsense. I have been waiting for the Saints to rebuild for many years.
Screw the cap money,we need to win now. No one wants to come here. Spikes was a huge miss for us.
Sorry to be so cynical, but look at the last two seasons, key veteran free agents don\'t let play off opportunites slip through their hands.

[Edited on 11/3/2003 by subguy]

Uh Oh
 

You all make valid points... we\'ll have to see what happens in the future. Let me say this - I do like what the Saints have been able to do with bringing in young talent. They\'ve been incredible in that respect. Brooks, Deuce, Stallworth, Grant, Bentley, Craver, Allen, Hodge, Mitchell, and Leiws (not so young, but new and undiscovered) are all great players that they\'ve been able to add in the last couple of years, and those are just the ones off the top of my head.

This might sound crazy, but part of my concern is that this organization is pretty damn good when it comes to identifying young talent. That being said, if you throw in another 4 or 5 pleyers from this year\'s draft you\'re in trouble in two or three years when these guys start becoming free agents and they\'ve all turned into good players. We can\'t possibly keep them all. Which speaks to my point about the Saints becoming a feeder team for the real contenders.

More importantly though, is the ridiculousness in the way this organization works. I don\'t understand it. They reward a guy like Venturi for his loyalty by promoting him to defensive coordinator, a post that he obviously doesn\'t deserve. They pay Aaron Brooks a ton of money at a time when he is largely unproven for what he MIGHT be able to do. Yet, when it comes to a guy like Joe Horn, there\'s hesitation... well, maybe not from the Saints at this point, we really don\'t know. But there should be none at all.

I don\'t care what your take is on Horn as a person. As a player, he has been the single most impactful player on our team since Haslett got to New Orleans and the best receiver to ever wear black and gold. And he shows NO signs of slowing down:

2000 - 94 catches for 1,340 yards, a 14.3 yards per catch average, 8 TDs and a long of 52.
2001 - 83 catches for 1,265 yards, a 15.2 yards per catch average, 9 TDs and a long of 56.
2002 - 88 catches for 1,312 yards, a 14.9 yards per catch average, 7 TDs and a long of 63.

In 2000 he ranked fourth in the NFC in receptions, fifth in yardage, third in first down receptions, and he went to the Pro Bowl.

In 2001 he tied for sixth in the NFC in scoring among non-kickers (54 points), fifth in receptions, fifth in receiving yards, 11th in total yards from scrimmage (1,269), 12th in first downs (59) and tied for fourth in third down receptions, and that was with another 1000 yard receiver on the team (Willie Jackson) and a late season tank-job! Oh yeah, he went to the Pro Bowl.

In 2002 he finished 5th in the NFC in receptions, 3rd in yards, etc. etc. etc. Am I making my point? Oh, wait, that\'s right, he went to the Pro Bowl.

How can you not reward a guy like this? A big contract is a reward. A thanks for being the best receiver in the history of this franchise. Yes, this is a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately league, so in three years, if his play has fallen off, you change the terms or get rid of him. I understand that. However, if the Saints do not re-sign Joe Horn, barring any major injury or drop off in play this season, then I am at a complete loss as to how this team will ever be successful. YOU KEEP YOUR STAR PLAYERS. The Saints have not done this over the past three years. New players have emerged, I fully acknowledge that. I am a big Stallworth fan - but as I believe you put it Gator during the Brooks/Delhomme debate - potential just means that you haven\'t done it yet. Horn has, and continues to do it every time he puts on a Saints uniform and you\'re not convinced?

Uh Oh
 

Hey Gator, I completely agree. I think we\'ve built a pretty steady base of young players though. At this point, we\'re looking at Brooks, Deuce, Stallworth, Bentley, Grant, Allen, Hodge, Ruff, Mitchell, and Craver probably as starters. All of these guys are young and with the exception of Brooks, none of them have a lot of starting experience. I agree, don\'t break the bank on free agency. Absolutely. But I\'ve been saying for a while that getting rid of Turley and Hand frees up another $6 or $7 million in cap room and probably adds a first or second round draft pick. That\'s TONS of room. We\'d be back to where we started around $15 mil.

I think our offense is similar to Tampa\'s D. The pieces are in place. Now we just need help from the defense, like they needed offense. Do we want to waste four years or do we want to take our shot now? B/c if you look at what Tampa did, they spent a lot last year to bring in some free agents who aren\'t exactly young. McCardell, Brad and Rob Johnson, Pittman... The point is that they did what they needed to do to propel themselves to a championship.

I think with the addition of an impact LB (colvin & quarles are still out there), and a corner (a la Woodson) or safety (Lassiter, Jones, etc) the Saints will propel themselves to at least a real contender. We\'re talking about two players. That\'s not breaking the bank. Hell, you can sign two players and end up paying them less in salary in their first year then Hand is scheduled to make. Use the draft for DT and corner/safety, whichever you need to fill after free agency. That\'s one point.

The other is that you protect your stars. San Francisco stays good b/c their stars stay in SF until (with the exception of Rice) they are really done playing at a top-notch level. A lot of players retire as 49ers. No one ever retires as a Saint. Fontenot is going to do something in the next year or two that is amazing to me. Retire as a Saint. That\'s impressive, b/c very few good players ever do that.

Uh Oh
 

We agree Gator...

I\'m having a little trouble with your logic though. Why do you feel Horn is slowing down? I think he\'s playing as well now as ever before. Is it just something that you assume of all older receivers? It\'s an understandable, and even accurate, idea. Although, obviously open to anomolies (Rice, Brown). But isn\'t Horn an anomoly also? He\'s a Pro Bowler, which immediately makes him different than all but a handful of receivers in the league. And the fact that he \"broke out\" and has begun to play at such a high level so \"late\" in his career also makes him different from the norm.

Also, this is an area I\'m not real educated in so help me out. As long as you structure his contract in a way that doesn\'t guarantee him $ after retirement (i.e. signing bonuses paid over the next five or ten years or guaranteed pay), then releasing him alleviates any liability he creates. Right? Or am I misunderstanding the way these things work?

Uh Oh
 

Oh Gator, c\'mon! The guy\'s been to three straight Pro Bowls. He\'s been in the top five in the NFC in a variety of categories every year since he came to New Orleans. You\'re right, he\'s not a top five receiver. He\'s a top 10 receiver (top five in the NFC). Regardless, it hasn\'t mattered if he is the only receiver or if there\'s another 1000 yard receiver on the team. Bottom line, he produces game in game out, year in year out.

Uh Oh
 

I guess I should put my two cents worth in on this subject. LOL. As I see it you have to pay Horn to stay. Weren\'t we all just complaining about the Saints not trying to keep Jake? Yes,I know Jake is younger, but as I see it Horn is a much bigger part of this offense than he gets credit for. When he is on the field with Stallworth and Pathon , who do you double? To me he has earned what ever he gets. We all wonder why the Saints get rid of our \"best players\" . Then we wonder why we should pay them what their worth. My question is, how much is Joe Horn worth to this offense? In a couple of years, sure he might have lost a step but he can still play a #2 or #3 reciever. Sure we could go into the free agent market and maybe find someone to replace him but then you have to hope he fits the chemistry of this team ( Albert Connell) . I won\'t go so far as to say Horn is irreplaceable but he\'s damned close. I say keep Joe Horn in black and gold and let him retire a Saint. If there\'s one player I think is the heart of this team it\'s Joe Horn. Just my humble opinion.

As far as how to stock a team. I think the Saints are doing a pretty good job. As I see it you have to find a happy medium between free agents and draft picks. The free agents allow you to field a decent team while you bring your draft picks along and teach them the system. If you research the NFL and the teams in it, I think you\'ll find all of them do it this way to some degree. And then there\'s the Redskins lol.

I don\'t think Benson will allow Loomis and Haz to hock the farm to bring in 1 or 2 big name free agents. It is after all a business to him and he\'s in it to make money.

I guess we\'ll just have to sit back and see what they come up with next. To me the offseason pickups they have made are good ones and should improve the team. I just hope that we\'re not through with the free agent market yet.

LOOK AT THE BRIGHT SIDE, THEY COULD BE BRINGING IN BRIAN GRIESE AS AB\'S BACKUP.

Uh Oh
 

Gator....there is no right or wrong. I guess regarding how the Bucs built,you are correct on defense(draft),but on offense(non-draft). Horn deserves $$$,he has been consistent and turned out to be one of the biggest receivers in the league. Deuce was a good draft choice. Jake is gone,we will rue that. Hand has turned out to be a slug,see ya.
Gator, listen two key free agent acquisitions on defense,we still have our picks. We can supplement with those,Stallworth comes to mind,I know he was injured alot,but Horn was the go to guy,Stallworth an added bonus, a supplement if you will.
This league is built around free agency. If you draft this year,there are no guarantees they will even be around to become productive.

Uh Oh
 

ok guys, let me see if i can clarify things, im not exactly sure how it goes when a player retires but i believe that... for example a player signs a 10 year deal worth 20 million wit a 10 million signing bonus, that means that the signin bonus, which is given to a player upfront, is spread out over the life of the contract (10 year contract with 10 million bonus = 1 mill a year) + (10 years, 10 million salary = 1 mill a year) so together they are 2 mill a year, but if a player retires they wont pay the salary part of the deal b/c he will not be performing his \"services\" but he will still count against the cap by the signing bonus, b/c it was pro-rated for the full contract, so this player would count 1 mill/ year against the cap for the rest of the contract length i.e.
he retires after 5 years, he would count for 1 mill in cap room for the remaining 5 years

any ?s

the reason that he counts against the cap after retirement is b/c the signing bonus which was paid the min. he signed the original contract, is guarenteed

another example, kurt warner for the rams would have gotten a 6 mil roster bonus if he was on the roster this year, the rams didnt cut him so now he will count at least 6 mill against their cap room this year

Uh Oh
 

i was foolin around and i found site that i had used before, it will explain to you anything and everything u ever wanted to know about the salary cap

http://askthecommish.com/Articles/capanomics2.htm

oh and i was previously wrong about the retirement-signing bonus statement.

In most cases, if a player retires, the remaining signing bonus that has not been included in salary “accelerates� and is included in that year’s team salary. Thus, the team will take an immediate salary cap hit of the remaining signing bonus.

Uh Oh
 

Thanks Pak. That\'s how I understood it to work. So if we\'re signing Horn to a contract extension, we can give him a smaller signing bonus (i.e. $1.5 mill) and a larger salary that hopefully will be backloaded and incentive laden. Right?

Uh Oh
 

You\'re crazy!! Stallworth and Pathon\'s numbers combine didn\'t equal Horn\'s alone in any category other than touchdowns. If Horn wants guaranteed money, give it to him. I certainly do not want to put words in your mouth Gator, but I am guessing that part of your feelings for Horn are based on his mouth and flashy (some people might call him a showboat) ways. As a player he is as solid a wideout as you can ask for.

I mean, are you happy about the Gandy signing? Gandy\'s as old as Horn and we just gave him a 6 year $30 million contract. What about Ambrose? Ambrose is older. Give Horn $1.5 million signing and 5 years $15 million. I\'m not sure what top receiver money is, but I don\'t think it\'s much more than $3 mill a year. If Brooks is worth $5 mill a year than Horn is definitely worth $3 mill.

As for your Rogers idea - nice idea... never happen. Why would you want a rookie and second year receiver (who couldn\'t even go his entire first season without getting hurt)starting anyway? That\'s a recipe for disaster. Besides, if you won\'t pay Horn as a top receiver, how do you figure that we\'ll get the draft picks for him that we would need to trade up ahead of the Lions (who have the 2nd pick in the draft by the way!!) to get Rogers?

Pay Horn.

Uh Oh
 

PS - is there another receiver that has been or will be available in say a two year period from today that went to three consecutive Pro Bowls?

Uh Oh
 

I agree - great debate. And no mud-slinging... YOU IDIOT! ;)

I agree with you about Horn not having the future that Deuce, Stallworth, Grant, Howard, etc. have. But, I think he\'s got three more good years in him. My thinking is that if you try to sign him early, maybe even during the season, while he\'s still under contract you probably get a better deal than if you wait until the end of his contract when teams get to start a bidding war for him. You know?

One thing that probably need to get deferred back to Pak is how signing a player under contract in-season affects the cap. Does it affect the current year\'s cap or the next. For example, if we extend Horn\'s contract after the season starts does it affect this year\'s cap situation? If not, then do that. Don\'t you think?

Uh Oh
 

ok
signing a player during the season would effect this years cap, b/c it would actually be restructuring his contract actually say he is makin a base salary this year of 2.5 mill, he is countin 2.5 mil against this years cap, but by resignin durin the season or restructuring his current deal, lets say for example he signs a new deal 5 years 5 mill no signin bonus(not gonna happen but u know...) instead of counting 2.5 mil againts dis years cap, it would only be 1 mill.... that is Y most teams back load contracts b/c they can lower their base salaries for they current year and take a lesser salary cap hit which is also the reason want higher signing bonuses, b/c they get that money up front, would u sign a contract which pays u 1 mil this year 5 mill next year 10 mil the 3rd year, when there is no guerentee that u will see the 10 mill in the third year, if u dont get some money upfront? i dont think so, so players want high signing bonuses anything else?

my thoghts on this situation, i think we should sign joe to an extension i think he has at lease 3 good years left in him, he has performed well above expectations and i believe he needs to compensated, with at least a 5 year deal with a 6 mil signin bonus

Uh Oh
 

Hey Gator, I agree that re-signing our young talent down the road is going to be a problem. I said that earlier when we were debating the Pros and Cons of bringing in high paid free agents. No matter what, we will not resign all of our young talent. You\'re looking at Deuce, Stallworth, Bentley, Grant, Allen, Hodge, Craver, and Mitchell PLUS four or five draft picks this year. That\'s NOT including our slightly older players whose contracts will come due over the next few years.

My point is, that we\'re going to lose players. We lose good players every year (Ricky, Roaf, Glover, Johnson, Turley, Knight, Delhomme, Gowin). That\'s not going to stop any time soon. At some point you have to step up, pay your impact players and take a shot at a title. Otherwise you end up in a perpetual \"wait \'til next year\" cycle that makes you nothing more than a feeder team to the real contenders.

Yes, I know that signing big name players with backloaded contracts forces you to have a down-cycle a few years out, but at least you have a real shot now. The Saints are still going to have a down in a few years when all of these young stars want new contracts. At least we should get a title shot before that down, don\'t you think? The other option is to lose three stars for every two we add each year, like we\'re doing now, and we stay in this 7-9 to 9-7 range every single year. That\'s just as bad to me. Don\'t you think?

Uh Oh
 

You guys still going, WhoDat agreed with me many posts ago,Gator disagreed with me many posts ago. My summation, keep our studs,Horn cannot be replaced with the same quality etc..... Pay money, we have been rebuilding since the start of the franchise. Free Agency doesn\'t allow you to hold younger players anyway. Play for now. Let\'s make a team now,not with half assed replacements like we have. Not with unproven draft picks, who rarely produce for a couple seasons. The cap will always be an issue, somehow the 49\'ers and Raiders, and I would say the Rams have avoided issues,maybe until now. They have had fairly successful programs. Buy a team. And when you let someone who is a perennial pro bowler go(Roaf)get something for him.