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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Whodi, I think Euph is just trying to say that, if you guys are saying that you can't compare quarterbacks from the past to AB, then you can't say that past quarterbacks are better because thats doing the exact opposite. ...

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Old 06-24-2005, 02:13 AM   #51
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Whodi, I think Euph is just trying to say that, if you guys are saying that you can't compare quarterbacks from the past to AB, then you can't say that past quarterbacks are better because thats doing the exact opposite. I.E. You can't say Manning was better than AB because you guys were just saying that you can't compare AB to Manning. In other words, in a way you are going against your own idea. I can understand both views that Euph and everyone else is trying to make. Brooks is statistically better, but because of his offensive weapons, he should be MUCH MUCH better. But, Euph is saying that he has more weapons but, regardless, statistically has been very effective. He has fumbled and thrown a lot of INT's but he also has thrown for alot of yards, tds. The "Brooks Debate" will never be solved unless he does REALLY BAD or REALLY GOOD this year. I see both points that people try to make, therefore I just look at Brooks for what he is. A really good QB sometimes, and a really average QB other times. Even a really bad QB other times. He is what he is. I hope he can be a GREAT QB this year, but who knows.
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Old 06-24-2005, 06:19 AM   #52
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I never said you cannot evaluate Brooks against QBs of the past. I did say that you cannot evaluate him "in a vacuum", by which I mean that if you choose to evaluate him against historic QBs - you must consider everything:

- Coaching philosphy of the team the QB is on (During the years of the Dome Patrol our team couldn't care less about offense and the stats showed it.)
- "Flavor" of the NFL at the time they played (there was an entire era where power running is all EVERYONE did.)
- Salary Cap (that's a relatively new thing - Gads, I just showed my age! - but it's lack created many of the dynasties of the past because THE RICHER TEAM STAYED ON TOP. Please tell me you understand that NO was never the richer team.)
- Talent on the team. (No reasonable person would argue that this is the most talented Saints offense EVER, every professional anaylsis calls us chronic underachievers. Check out Archie's starting offense and you'll wind up saying "Who the heck is that guy?!" for the whole roster)

I've watched the Saints all my life, and what I remember most is that when we were great - it was our defense that made us great. We never had any talent on offense. Our team has been the dumping ground for great offensive players at the END of their career (i.e. Earl Campbell, Ken Stabler, etc.)

Watching a truly GREAT QB like Archie play with NOTHING to help him (pourous OL, no talent at WR, RB with a 3.5 ypc average) and somehow turning it in to great stats tell me all I need to know about Archie.

Watching an overhyped chump like Brooks take literally the greatest offense we've ever seen and going three-and-out in the first half for an ENTIRE season tells me all I need to know about him.

I said it before and I'll say it again, Brooks is not even in the same league as Archie Manning.
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Old 06-24-2005, 09:03 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Euphoria
Ok then... if you want to go there then rank the past Saints QB's league ranking in there era to Brooks in his era. You'll see that Brooks in the top ten overall in categories in yards TD's what have you. I think Manning was the only QB that we had to rank in the top 10. Brooks has been ranked in the top ten consistantly.

Just go with stats... and leave your heart out of it and only while they played for the Saints.

I've missed much of this debate, but I'm throwing my 2 cents in where I left off with Euph.

I'm well aware of the stats Euph. Everett pre-dated Brooks by what? 10 years? And his raw numbers are all better than Brooks'. For example, look back to 1995. Jim "Chris" Everett had a 60.8% completion percentage, threw for 3,970 yards, with a 7.0 YPA average, 26 TDs and 14 INTs. That looks better than any year Brooks has had, IMO, and Everett did that with Mario Bates running the ball, and the incredible receiving trio of Quinn Early, Michael Haynes, and Torrance Small. Not exactly Deuce, Horn, Stallworth, and Pathon, is it? The year before in 1994 Everett had a 64.1% completion percentage and 3,855 yards. Just comparing the numbers straight up head to head you'll see that Everett was a better QB. Take into account the era and the surrounding talent (or lack thereof) and the gap only widens.

I mean, in 1992 Hebert completed 59% of his passes for 3,287 yards, a 7.8 YPA, 19 TDs and 16 INTs. You fast forward those numbers nearly 15 years and they're better than Brooks now. They are very comperable just side by side - you tell me, who had more weapons Hebert or Brooks? Who played in a more pass happy era? Who had a more pass happy attack?

That's Archie, Hebert, and Everett easily better than Brooks.

And remember one thing - saying AB ranks in the top 10 in yard or TDs is an incomplete measure of AB's performance. If AB threw more than any other QB in the league last year, shouldn't he have more TDs and Yards than any others too? If he has the MOST attempts but is 7th in Yards and 10th in TDs that says that a lot of other QBs are getting more production on fewer attempts. AB's QB rating shows that as he's ranked in the 20s.

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Old 06-24-2005, 09:53 AM   #54
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You compare Brooks with the talent in todays NFL... he ranks pretty high. If you rank say Manning in his day, he ranks pretty high... as a Saint mind you. If you compare Saints QBs to the era in which they played say how they ranked in the top 10 in certain categories. I am not saying match them up yard for yard, play by play... how they finished a year ranked against there collegues in there era. Brooks is one of the best QB's the Saints have ever had... let me rephrase that... Brooks is one of the best QB's to wear the uniform. Some would say its about the win losses well he still ranks up there winning and gets credit for quarterback a play off win, which no other Saint QB has done to this date. The arguement that you talent around the player contributes... sure. but you rank them against teams of there era over a career... it averages out. Brooks have had bad years and good, so has other Saints QB's. People are so quick to put all the blame on the QB for win-lose theroies. Even so then give brooks credit for being of of the most winningest qb in saints history. People are quick to trash him but he is the best thing we have had in 38 years. I will also argue he hasn't had that much talent around him... hello Defense SUCKS. Take more than an offense. You can score 30 a game all you want but when you give up 31... Sure his day is coming when he'll be replaced, it still remains to be seen what he'll accomplish in the mean time. But lining up on Sundays this year I'll take Brooks over what we have in house.

E U P H O R I A
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Old 06-24-2005, 10:58 AM   #55
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Euph - this is an argument that's been hashed out on this board in the past a number of times, by why not once more?

You say that AB ranks in the top 10... however, any simple analysis of his numbers shows you that he is not anywhere near a top ten QB.

For example, over the last 4 years he has ranked in the top ten in the league in yards and TDs a few times. However, he also consistently rank in the top ten in the league in attempts. I'm no rocket scientist, but to me, it stands to reason that if a guy throw the ball more than 30 other guys, he should have more yards than 30 other guys. That isn't true, b/c he completes fewer passes. That is reflected in his low completion percentages and QB ratings over the years. Likewise, his TD:INT ratio has been marginal, and his TD:Turnover ratio has been negative.

What does all that mean? It means that if Brady, for example, could throw for 300 yards on 30 attempts, you're likely to have to give AB 35 or 40 to get the same production. Simply put, that makes the unit less effective and efficient.

AB is not a bad QB, but he's not particularly good either. He has more talent than most other Saints QBs ever, but the Saints have a fairly sad history at that position. If he seems good to a Saints fan that is probably b/c most of us don't know what a good QB looks like.

My point is, AB has above average talent but is below average in terms of performance, assuming you measure performance as getting the most possible out of each attempt. Thus, all in all, AB ends up being very average in his time. Moreover, there are past Saints QBs who have had less talent that have done more. Everett, Hebert, and Manning are three for sure.

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\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
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Old 06-24-2005, 12:35 PM   #56
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-your simple anaylsis, doesn't have Brooks in the ten?
-you say he is in the top ten in yards and TD's ok. a bit of a contridiction but ok.
-the other top 10 Qbs in completeions, yard, and TDS are also in the top 10 in attempts as well but you didn't look at all those statistics. Noted your not a rocket scientist.

Going by top ten finishes in the cat. of yards, TD's, and completions is a decent messuring stick although i'll admit not perfect. Other Saints QB's have reached 3,000 yards 20 plus TD's in there era. If you add up there top ten finishes during there days you'll see leading the back are Manning and Brooks. Has nothing to do with Brady or Culpepper except the fact that Brooks competion is Brady Culpeper and P. Manning, with that he places in the top ten in cat. worth mentioning. Compared to the competion of all the Saints QB's how they faired then to how Brooks fairs now, he is up there as for as Saints QB's go. Not saying he is the elite QB in the NFL. I am saying his performance is showing he is one of the Best QB's we have had. UGH.
If you don't think Brooks is in the top to in QB's in his era... wait to Fantasy Football drafts and see how is is draft amoug QB's.

E U P H O R I A
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Old 06-24-2005, 01:51 PM   #57
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You're reall missing the point. Yards, TDs, and completions aren't comparative numbers. They are NOT, IMO, good statistical measures. Let me demonstrate:

AB throws 50 passes completing 25 for 250 yards.
QB X throws 35 passes completing 23 for 240 yards.

Who is the better QB?

By your measuring stick AB is. He had more completions, and more yards. But anyone can see that in reality, the other QB is better, b/c he threw for essentially the same yards and completions, but it took him 15 less attempts to get there. AB had a 50% completion rate, whereas QB X had a 65% rate.

So again, look at numbers like completion percentage and efficiency rating to see how well a QB is really playing. If you look at AB's he consistently ranks below 20th in those categories. You simply cannot be a top 10 QB IMO if you don't have a QB rating or Comp % in the top ten - I don't care if you throw for 5,000 yards and 60 TDs - b/c if you are completing 50% of your passes that simply means that you threw a whole lot more than everyone else.... as is the case with Aaron Brooks.

Do you not get it?

Fill In The Blanks, Euph:
If I throw the 3rd most passes I should have the BLANK most yards and BLANK most TDs.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 06-24-2005, 02:07 PM   #58
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Let me prove my point another way Euph. Here are some of AB's stats from 2004:

AB threw the 3rd most passes in the NFL.

Now, I would expect him to have the 3rd most yards and 3rd most TDs, etc. That simply isn't the case. Comparatively, Trent Green threw the most passes, Culpepper threw the 2nd most, and Peyton Manning threw the 8th most passes.

AB ranked 9th in yards. 3rd most passes but only 9th in yards.
Green ranked 1st in attempts and 2nd in yards.
Culpepper ranked 2nd in attempts and first in yards.
Manning was 8th in attemtps but 3rd in yards.
Hell, 13 guys threw more passes than McNabb, including Brooks, but McNabb had more yards than AB.


AB
Attempts: 3rd
Yards: 9th
TDs: 12th
INTs: 23rd
Long: 23rd

Now here come some really valuable COMPARATIVE numbers:
YPA: 19th
TD:INT Ratio: 19th
Comp %: 24th
QB Rating: 19th


So b/c AB had the 9th most yards, despite throwing the 3rd most passes, he's top 10 to you? Nevermind that he's 19th or worse in basically every other statistical category. That's not important right?

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 06-24-2005, 03:06 PM   #59
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Now here come some really valuable COMPARATIVE numbers:
YPA: 19th
And Joe Horn was DFL in the entire NFL in YAC's. It probably would have been nice to have a WR who actually ran after he caught the ball wouldn't it?
TD:INT Ratio: 19th
Middle third? With practically ZERO run game? And every person in the stadium knowing you have to throw? Hmmm, its amazing he finished 19th.
Comp %: 24th
Again, see above, combine with drops, not too bad.
QB Rating: 19th
Wow, with the above obstacles its amazing he finished 19th.
Thanks for posting, I never was much of a Brooks fan until I saw those numbers. He's better than I thought.
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Old 06-24-2005, 06:20 PM   #60
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ROFLMAO

That's just hilarious? And the year before that his excuse was... ???
And before that?
And before that?

I love that you bring Horn into this. What a riot! Yeah, AB came up big for the Saints way more than Horn. He's a much better player too. Just look at all of the Pro Bowl he HASN'T been to in the last 5 years.

Quick question Danno - is AB surrounded by more talent on offense than any other Saints QB ever, and has he been that way since he became the starter?

AB can barely put up Bobby Hebert numbers with these guys. Man, if AB is a good QB when does Hebert get inducted into the Hall of Fame? Archie must be the best QB in the history of the F&*^ing league, huh?

What do you think Brooks would bring in a straight up trade right now today Danno? A third round pick? Maybe? Yeah, he's an all-star alright.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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