Put to Bed Offense or Defense

RockyMountainSaint · 07-26-2005, 02:38 AM

Wow!

You won me over.

So. It is better to not reach the playoffs.

It sucks to go to Conference Championship games and lose.

We are so much better off for having not gotten there.

I would feel so bad if the Saints actually went to the playoffs and lost.

Thanks for making me feel so much better about mediocrity.

I felt bad before but now I feel so much better.

WhoDat · 07-26-2005, 08:47 AM

This should put to end the debate...

Apparently your first 58 posts here haven't taught you much about this site. LOL

I'd also like to take a stab at some bashers of our QB, see i've let it be known before that our current QB, and the Colts QB were having similar numbers, yardage/TD'S/ wins and losses prior to the Colts changing Coaches. Dungy did improve the defense somewhat from Mora. And hence Manning improved.

The implication within this statement is, IMO, absurd. You're suggesting that AB and Peyton Manning are essentially equally talented, but that Manning's coach and minimal defensive improvement has catapulted him to break a number of long-standing records, some of which (like QB Rating for a season) were thought to be virtually unbreakable??? For BnB's sake, I will say no more.

Like in 2000 and we had no defense going against Randy Moss, he's still scoring on us, TD-Moss!

Check your stats Chach. The Saints defense led the league in sacks in 2000 under Ron Zook. Overall they didn't rank incredibly, but I think they finished the year ranked between 11th-15th in most statistical categories, with noticeable exceptions - they were top ten in sacks and takeaways - translation: they were very opportunistic. This is the same defense that held "the greatest show on turf" to what? 7 points through 50 minutes of a playoff game.

On another issue, I don't understand this O v. D debate. Almost every good team has balance. That means that their offense and defense both perform well. Simply b/c a team is known for having a particularly strong unit is no indication that its other units are not good. Sure, Tampa Bay got to the playoffs a few years ago on the back of their defense. There is no question what their strength was. But go look at the game stats from the playoffs. They were scoring 30 points a game. Their offense was explosive late in the season and through the Super Bowl. The Rams got there thanks to the "greatest show on turf..." and a top 10 defense, which people casually forget.

As for the Saints, the team needs to improve on both sides of the ball. The defense looks tough in the secondary and obviously on the perimeter with Grant, Howard, and Smith. The question marks remain at LB (can the young players pick up where they left off last season and continue to improve?) and DT - who is going to step up and be the big body we need next to Young?

On offense, there is room for improvement at about every spot, but then again, the unit is coming off their worst finish in 5 years, and it was still 17 spots better ranked than the defense. It seems that, for the most part, the personnel is in place on that side of the ball. Now they just have to produce. Brooks needs to pick his game up. The o-line needs to gel. Deuce needs to stay healthy. The WRs need to show greater consistency and explosion. Someone, oh someone, has to step it up at TE.

But I don't understand where this great O v. D debate is coming from when it relates to the Saints. Isn't it clear what the problem has been the last few years? Isn't it clear now that both units need to improve?

saintswhodi · 07-26-2005, 08:52 AM

Hmm, would I rather be a team that consistently makes the playoffs but loses most often to the Superbowl Champs on their homefield, or would I rather not make the playoffs in the last 4 years and have no shot at a Superbowl at all?

Would I rather a QB who just shattered the single season TD record even after not playing the last two games, or would I rather one who, well, we know the history? I fail to see how this article proved anything at all, except Peyton is a vastly better QB and can even consistently get his team into the playoffs with no D. Mediocrity is nothing to be celebrated.

Euphoria · 07-26-2005, 09:31 AM

lol, only stirs the pot more actually... how did it end the debate? Also... you have to draft the best talent available this day in age whether that be on OL or DE... Cap plays an issue so you snag what you can talent wise and work FA's.

yasoon · 07-26-2005, 10:33 AM

Nice post WhoDat. I'm with you on all that.

I will also say, as respectfully as possible, that equating Peyton's success to the marginal improvement of the D is just not gonna fly any where. Peyton has the physical tools as well as the work ethic to maximize his already top-notch talent. Nobody watches more film, nobody is better prepared for a game.

The bottom line is if you put together a panel of experts and said "AB vs. Peyton...discuss" they would look at you blankly and say that there's not even anywhere to start. I mean really, this seems like an attempt to stir the pot. AB may have some of the physical tools to be in that discussion, but his football IQ is microscopic compared to Peyton's. Have you watched a Colt's game? This guy knows exactly what the D is doing at any given time. Imagine AB audibling and waving his hands around like that....it's kinda funny to think about. We can't even get the CALLED play in before the snap

Seriously....I call shenanigans on this thread.

saintswhodi · 07-26-2005, 11:06 AM

Seriously....I call shenanigans on this thread.

Shenanigans? That's a very serious accusation my friend. But well warranted on this thread. Good call.

BlackandBlue · 07-26-2005, 11:17 AM

The implication within this statement is, IMO, absurd. You're suggesting that AB and Peyton Manning are essentially equally talented, but that Manning's coach and minimal defensive improvement has catapulted him to break a number of long-standing records, some of which (like QB Rating for a season) were thought to be virtually unbreakable??? For BnB's sake, I will say no more.

Ok, allow me. Manning, before the ball is even snapped, can easily audible three times, in the same time it would take AB to utter the words, "32 belly option on 2"

yasoon · 07-26-2005, 11:24 AM

You're exactly right BlacknBlue. It is really amazing to watch whether you like the Colts/Manning or not. Their ability to get the snap off with 1 sec on the clock with minimal confusion is very impressive. Gotta throw some credit to the OC especially with edge back there thinking about what rare metal to put in his mouth next. But, the QB runs that show and it is offensive efficiency at its absolute peak.

saintz08 · 07-26-2005, 11:57 AM

Dungy did improve the defense somewhat from Mora. And hence Manning improved.

Are you implying Black on Black , that a slight defensive improvement helped Manning become an elite qb ?????

saintz08 · 07-26-2005, 12:28 PM

Here is one for you Black on Black .

From the NFL site .

THE EARLY READ
As long as the Colts have Peyton Manning and the rest of one of the most explosive offenses the NFL has ever seen, they are going to own this division. They will again challenge for the AFC title, but success will only be achieved if they finally reach the Super Bowl. New England is ready to stand in the way once again, although the Patriots just might have suffered too many losses from their coaching staff and roster to prevent the Colts from taking that final step.

http://www.nfl.com/partners/aol/inde...AOL=1032156097

Alot of the success of stopping Peyton Manning has been attributed to the coaching in New England , with Crennel now in Cleveland it should be interesting to see if the Pats can stop Peyton .

07-26-2005, 02:38 AM	#1
RockyMountainSaint Mmm That Smell! Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Metairie Terrace Posts: 3,073	RE: Put to Bed Offense or Defense Wow! You won me over. So. It is better to not reach the playoffs. It sucks to go to Conference Championship games and lose. We are so much better off for having not gotten there. I would feel so bad if the Saints actually went to the playoffs and lost. Thanks for making me feel so much better about mediocrity. I felt bad before but now I feel so much better.

07-26-2005, 08:47 AM	#2
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	RE: Put to Bed Offense or Defense This should put to end the debate... Apparently your first 58 posts here haven't taught you much about this site. LOL I'd also like to take a stab at some bashers of our QB, see i've let it be known before that our current QB, and the Colts QB were having similar numbers, yardage/TD'S/ wins and losses prior to the Colts changing Coaches. Dungy did improve the defense somewhat from Mora. And hence Manning improved. The implication within this statement is, IMO, absurd. You're suggesting that AB and Peyton Manning are essentially equally talented, but that Manning's coach and minimal defensive improvement has catapulted him to break a number of long-standing records, some of which (like QB Rating for a season) were thought to be virtually unbreakable??? For BnB's sake, I will say no more. Like in 2000 and we had no defense going against Randy Moss, he's still scoring on us, TD-Moss! Check your stats Chach. The Saints defense led the league in sacks in 2000 under Ron Zook. Overall they didn't rank incredibly, but I think they finished the year ranked between 11th-15th in most statistical categories, with noticeable exceptions - they were top ten in sacks and takeaways - translation: they were very opportunistic. This is the same defense that held "the greatest show on turf" to what? 7 points through 50 minutes of a playoff game. On another issue, I don't understand this O v. D debate. Almost every good team has balance. That means that their offense and defense both perform well. Simply b/c a team is known for having a particularly strong unit is no indication that its other units are not good. Sure, Tampa Bay got to the playoffs a few years ago on the back of their defense. There is no question what their strength was. But go look at the game stats from the playoffs. They were scoring 30 points a game. Their offense was explosive late in the season and through the Super Bowl. The Rams got there thanks to the "greatest show on turf..." and a top 10 defense, which people casually forget. As for the Saints, the team needs to improve on both sides of the ball. The defense looks tough in the secondary and obviously on the perimeter with Grant, Howard, and Smith. The question marks remain at LB (can the young players pick up where they left off last season and continue to improve?) and DT - who is going to step up and be the big body we need next to Young? On offense, there is room for improvement at about every spot, but then again, the unit is coming off their worst finish in 5 years, and it was still 17 spots better ranked than the defense. It seems that, for the most part, the personnel is in place on that side of the ball. Now they just have to produce. Brooks needs to pick his game up. The o-line needs to gel. Deuce needs to stay healthy. The WRs need to show greater consistency and explosion. Someone, oh someone, has to step it up at TE. But I don't understand where this great O v. D debate is coming from when it relates to the Saints. Isn't it clear what the problem has been the last few years? Isn't it clear now that both units need to improve?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

07-26-2005, 10:33 AM	#5
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594	Nice post WhoDat. I'm with you on all that. I will also say, as respectfully as possible, that equating Peyton's success to the marginal improvement of the D is just not gonna fly any where. Peyton has the physical tools as well as the work ethic to maximize his already top-notch talent. Nobody watches more film, nobody is better prepared for a game. The bottom line is if you put together a panel of experts and said "AB vs. Peyton...discuss" they would look at you blankly and say that there's not even anywhere to start. I mean really, this seems like an attempt to stir the pot. AB may have some of the physical tools to be in that discussion, but his football IQ is microscopic compared to Peyton's. Have you watched a Colt's game? This guy knows exactly what the D is doing at any given time. Imagine AB audibling and waving his hands around like that....it's kinda funny to think about. We can't even get the CALLED play in before the snap Seriously....I call shenanigans on this thread.
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594

07-26-2005, 11:24 AM	#8
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594	You're exactly right BlacknBlue. It is really amazing to watch whether you like the Colts/Manning or not. Their ability to get the snap off with 1 sec on the clock with minimal confusion is very impressive. Gotta throw some credit to the OC especially with edge back there thinking about what rare metal to put in his mouth next. But, the QB runs that show and it is offensive efficiency at its absolute peak.
yasoon 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 594

07-26-2005, 11:57 AM	#9
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Dungy did improve the defense somewhat from Mora. And hence Manning improved. Are you implying Black on Black , that a slight defensive improvement helped Manning become an elite qb ?????
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

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07-26-2005, 08:52 AM	#3
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Hmm, would I rather be a team that consistently makes the playoffs but loses most often to the Superbowl Champs on their homefield, or would I rather not make the playoffs in the last 4 years and have no shot at a Superbowl at all? Would I rather a QB who just shattered the single season TD record even after not playing the last two games, or would I rather one who, well, we know the history? I fail to see how this article proved anything at all, except Peyton is a vastly better QB and can even consistently get his team into the playoffs with no D. Mediocrity is nothing to be celebrated.

07-26-2005, 09:31 AM	#4
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	lol, only stirs the pot more actually... how did it end the debate? Also... you have to draft the best talent available this day in age whether that be on OL or DE... Cap plays an issue so you snag what you can talent wise and work FA's.

07-26-2005, 11:06 AM	#6
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Seriously....I call shenanigans on this thread. Shenanigans? That's a very serious accusation my friend. But well warranted on this thread. Good call.

07-26-2005, 11:17 AM	#7
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	The implication within this statement is, IMO, absurd. You're suggesting that AB and Peyton Manning are essentially equally talented, but that Manning's coach and minimal defensive improvement has catapulted him to break a number of long-standing records, some of which (like QB Rating for a season) were thought to be virtually unbreakable??? For BnB's sake, I will say no more. Ok, allow me. Manning, before the ball is even snapped, can easily audible three times, in the same time it would take AB to utter the words, "32 belly option on 2"

07-26-2005, 12:28 PM	#10
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Here is one for you Black on Black . From the NFL site . THE EARLY READ As long as the Colts have Peyton Manning and the rest of one of the most explosive offenses the NFL has ever seen, they are going to own this division. They will again challenge for the AFC title, but success will only be achieved if they finally reach the Super Bowl. New England is ready to stand in the way once again, although the Patriots just might have suffered too many losses from their coaching staff and roster to prevent the Colts from taking that final step. http://www.nfl.com/partners/aol/inde...AOL=1032156097 Alot of the success of stopping Peyton Manning has been attributed to the coaching in New England , with Crennel now in Cleveland it should be interesting to see if the Pats can stop Peyton .
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	\"Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn\'t give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed.\" - George S. Patton On another note, I\'ll take a bite of that crow 08. - Saintfan Brooks is a moron!! - Halo