Carolina Panthers

subguy · 03-21-2003, 01:48 PM

Excuse me WhoDat,don\'t give me the whoa is me attitude,I have agreed 100%. We have actually said some of the same things

FWtex · 03-21-2003, 03:42 PM

One of the problems with the Saints and many saints fans is they allow excuses for their problems. I don\'t see any way some can come out and call the collapse the saints had last year \"bad luck\" or \"choking\". Bad luck is when you lose one game due to a ref\'s bad call. Choke is when you lose a big game because one player could not handle the pressure.

Losing 6 of 8 including the last 4 games of a season is nothing less than a poor team. Be it the players, the coaches, or whatever ... it is the result of a bad team.

I now think Carolina has improved even more than the saints since the Dyson signing. The Saints may still be able to come back with a great draft day and some FA pickups between now and opening day, BUT if you had to put the teams on the field TODAY the saints would be last in the division in my estimations.

The saints still do not have a better pash rush, run stoppers or line backers. After the poor offensive showing the last half of the season I am no longer on board with the \"outscore your opponent\" philosophy. Don\'t use the excuse Brooks was hurt because that is part of football and a good team will be prepared for setbacks.

WhoDat · 03-21-2003, 05:39 PM

I agree completely FW. If you put the teams on the field today, we end up last. I\'ve been screaming that the Saints have done basically nothing to improve their defense as of yet, but people in here either want to have blind faith, talk about who we haven\'t lost (instead of who we picked up), and talk about the draft.

The Saints need to get off their asses and make some deals. Get rid of Turley so you can make moves with another number 2 pick. Sign Jones, and for God sakes man, go after Woodson. They squandered their chances (with the exception of Claiborne) to get a good Linebacker. Improve the secondary with Jones and Woodson, or some other shut down type corner (are there any left) and use the draft to pick up a DT and Linebacker... then use what you\'ve got left to find a TE and backup for Deuce, then I would keep picking up defensive talent the rest of the draft.

WhoDat · 03-21-2003, 05:44 PM

PS - at the end of the season last year and early in free agency this year, I heard a lot of analysts, writers, and even people on this board talking about how we would see as many as five or even SEVEN new faces on defense. Hell, I may have even said that. Who didn\'t expect the Saints to reload on D. So far, we\'ve gone out and signed ONE new starter on defense, Ruff, and he\'s only a started b/c A) Clemons sucks and B) he\'s leaving. Mitchell will start also, but again, ONLY b/c Knight left. That means we\'re looking at TWO new starters. I expect at very least four or five new starters next year. Unless we can find THREE starters in the draft, it doesn\'t look like that will happen. That\'s crap - and it shows me that the Saints are not truly dedicated to WINNING.

subguy · 03-22-2003, 08:12 AM

We needed some of that Panther and Redskin aggression in free agency. We didn\'t have it. So many improvements have passed. These teams have the win now attitude. That is what it takes in the NFL. Because of the revolving door of players(free agency), and the fact that if you do want to achieve anything from your youth you need some veteran leadership. We have alienated every player who has spent any time with us. Remember Roaf\'s frustration 2 seasons ago? What did we get for a perennial Pro Bowler?
Rickey Williams wasn\'t happy. Turley wasn\'t happy. I am just scratching the surface.

I would love to wish us into a 12-4 season........................I love Haslett, yet two season\'s in a row we have choked down the stretch. The coach deserves some fault, for allowing the letdown and not motivating. Last year we only needed one win out of four to be playoff bound,couldn\'t do it.

billyh1026 · 03-22-2003, 12:59 PM

Calm down guys..the offseason is still the offseason. We\'ll do just fine. Build thru the draft. Shore up thru free agency. Add an occasional great player thru free agency or other type of aquisition. Or, we can spend thru the wazzo the the Redskins and get nothing.

WhoDat · 03-22-2003, 08:34 PM

You know, I\'m tired of people bringing the Redskins in as THE example of what happens when you are active in the free agent market. That\'s like saying... or we could build through the draft like Cincinnati.

Super Bowl contenders usually build up part of their team through the draft and then they go out and get the free agents to fill in missing pieces. Tampa had a great defense and they were active in free agency bringing in OLDER veteran players on offense (Brad Johnson, Keenan McCardell, Michael Pittman, Joe Jurevicius...). Oakland is stocked full of OLDER free agent veterans. Two years ago the Rams were in the same position we are now. Great offense, terrible defense. They brought in a new D-coordinator and had something like seven new starters on defense almost all of whom they brought in through free agency. They went to the Super Bowl.

No one here is suggesting that the Saints should put themselves in cap trouble and mortgage their future for free agents. HOWEVER, the Saints started free agency with $16 million in cap room. If you add room from trading Turley, and dumping or restructuring Hand and Williams that\'s another$13 million dollars! THAT\'S $29 MILLION IN CAP ROOM, plus 5 draft picks in the first three round in case they need to wheel and deal. So far they\'ve signed a starting left tackle, a mediocre (could-be) middle linebacker, a punter, a backup QB, and a corner who will probably play in the nickel spot. How can you think that those players are ENOUGH free agent acquisitions with (potentially) $29 MILLION in cap room and five draft picks?

We came into free agency three impact players away from being a Super Bowl contender, in my opinion. We needed top ten talent at MLB, CB, and S. We could find a DT through the draft. We could add depth (see Ambrose) through the draft. We have signed exactly ZERO of the type of players we need to be good on defense. I shouldn\'t limit that to players though - we dropped the ball with Venturi also.

Bottom line - if they don\'t add some talent to this defense (the kind of talent that actually impacts the game), don\'t expect this team to get much better. The REALLY sad thing, is that there are still good players available at the positions we need to fill. Maybe not the top talent - we let that slip away at almost every position - but we could still get better. They\'re doing nothing. Look at these playes we could sign or deal for:

MLB - Chris Claiborne, Earl Holmes, Levon Kirkland, Hardy Nickerson, Nate Wayne

CB - Charles Woodson, Darrien Gordon, Chris McAlister

S - Tebucky Jones, Darius Donovin, Lethon Flowers, Kwamie Lassiter, Chad Cota, Corey Ivy

DT - Chester McGlockton, Gilbert Brown

subguy · 03-23-2003, 08:15 AM

There is nothing wrong with what the Redskins have done this year in Free Agency. I think they have addressed some needs quite well, as has Carolina. Obviously, the outcome is to be seen. I am not sure where the off the wall reference to Cincy came from,but o.k.
Everytime I mention the fact that we have not addressed our needs with Free Agency,I am told to relax. We only needed a few pieces of the puzzle, and I don\'t feel we addressed that. We purchased mediocrity. I know it isn\'t over yet and would like to see us secure a bit of quality before draft time. I have a feeling there will be quite a bit of jockeying at the draft.

WhoDat · 03-23-2003, 11:41 AM

Subguy - I wasn\'t disagreeing with you. Reread my post. Lots of people use washington as what not to do in free agency - I think that\'s like using cincinnati as what not to do in the draft. In any case, the Saints haven\'t done near enough in free agency.

WhoDat · 03-23-2003, 11:50 AM

Hey Gator - now they\'re short changing Fontenot and he\'s saying that the organization isn\'t reciprocating his loyalty or offering him what he\'s worth. This is FONTENOT - not Turley. Still think the front office is peachy?

03-21-2003, 01:48 PM	#21
subguy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: FL Posts: 2,057	Carolina Panthers Excuse me WhoDat,don\'t give me the whoa is me attitude,I have agreed 100%. We have actually said some of the same things

03-21-2003, 03:42 PM	#22
FWtex 100th Post Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 370	Carolina Panthers One of the problems with the Saints and many saints fans is they allow excuses for their problems. I don\'t see any way some can come out and call the collapse the saints had last year \"bad luck\" or \"choking\". Bad luck is when you lose one game due to a ref\'s bad call. Choke is when you lose a big game because one player could not handle the pressure. Losing 6 of 8 including the last 4 games of a season is nothing less than a poor team. Be it the players, the coaches, or whatever ... it is the result of a bad team. I now think Carolina has improved even more than the saints since the Dyson signing. The Saints may still be able to come back with a great draft day and some FA pickups between now and opening day, BUT if you had to put the teams on the field TODAY the saints would be last in the division in my estimations. The saints still do not have a better pash rush, run stoppers or line backers. After the poor offensive showing the last half of the season I am no longer on board with the \"outscore your opponent\" philosophy. Don\'t use the excuse Brooks was hurt because that is part of football and a good team will be prepared for setbacks.
FWtex 100th Post Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 370

03-21-2003, 05:39 PM	#23
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Carolina Panthers I agree completely FW. If you put the teams on the field today, we end up last. I\'ve been screaming that the Saints have done basically nothing to improve their defense as of yet, but people in here either want to have blind faith, talk about who we haven\'t lost (instead of who we picked up), and talk about the draft. The Saints need to get off their asses and make some deals. Get rid of Turley so you can make moves with another number 2 pick. Sign Jones, and for God sakes man, go after Woodson. They squandered their chances (with the exception of Claiborne) to get a good Linebacker. Improve the secondary with Jones and Woodson, or some other shut down type corner (are there any left) and use the draft to pick up a DT and Linebacker... then use what you\'ve got left to find a TE and backup for Deuce, then I would keep picking up defensive talent the rest of the draft.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-21-2003, 05:44 PM	#24
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Carolina Panthers PS - at the end of the season last year and early in free agency this year, I heard a lot of analysts, writers, and even people on this board talking about how we would see as many as five or even SEVEN new faces on defense. Hell, I may have even said that. Who didn\'t expect the Saints to reload on D. So far, we\'ve gone out and signed ONE new starter on defense, Ruff, and he\'s only a started b/c A) Clemons sucks and B) he\'s leaving. Mitchell will start also, but again, ONLY b/c Knight left. That means we\'re looking at TWO new starters. I expect at very least four or five new starters next year. Unless we can find THREE starters in the draft, it doesn\'t look like that will happen. That\'s crap - and it shows me that the Saints are not truly dedicated to WINNING.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-22-2003, 08:12 AM	#25
subguy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: FL Posts: 2,057	Carolina Panthers We needed some of that Panther and Redskin aggression in free agency. We didn\'t have it. So many improvements have passed. These teams have the win now attitude. That is what it takes in the NFL. Because of the revolving door of players(free agency), and the fact that if you do want to achieve anything from your youth you need some veteran leadership. We have alienated every player who has spent any time with us. Remember Roaf\'s frustration 2 seasons ago? What did we get for a perennial Pro Bowler? Rickey Williams wasn\'t happy. Turley wasn\'t happy. I am just scratching the surface. I would love to wish us into a 12-4 season........................I love Haslett, yet two season\'s in a row we have choked down the stretch. The coach deserves some fault, for allowing the letdown and not motivating. Last year we only needed one win out of four to be playoff bound,couldn\'t do it.
	Don't want em to get your goat don't show em where it's hid.

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03-22-2003, 12:59 PM	#26
billyh1026 100th Post Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 213	Carolina Panthers Calm down guys..the offseason is still the offseason. We\'ll do just fine. Build thru the draft. Shore up thru free agency. Add an occasional great player thru free agency or other type of aquisition. Or, we can spend thru the wazzo the the Redskins and get nothing.
billyh1026 100th Post Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 213

03-22-2003, 08:34 PM	#27
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Carolina Panthers You know, I\'m tired of people bringing the Redskins in as THE example of what happens when you are active in the free agent market. That\'s like saying... or we could build through the draft like Cincinnati. Super Bowl contenders usually build up part of their team through the draft and then they go out and get the free agents to fill in missing pieces. Tampa had a great defense and they were active in free agency bringing in OLDER veteran players on offense (Brad Johnson, Keenan McCardell, Michael Pittman, Joe Jurevicius...). Oakland is stocked full of OLDER free agent veterans. Two years ago the Rams were in the same position we are now. Great offense, terrible defense. They brought in a new D-coordinator and had something like seven new starters on defense almost all of whom they brought in through free agency. They went to the Super Bowl. No one here is suggesting that the Saints should put themselves in cap trouble and mortgage their future for free agents. HOWEVER, the Saints started free agency with $16 million in cap room. If you add room from trading Turley, and dumping or restructuring Hand and Williams that\'s another$13 million dollars! THAT\'S $29 MILLION IN CAP ROOM, plus 5 draft picks in the first three round in case they need to wheel and deal. So far they\'ve signed a starting left tackle, a mediocre (could-be) middle linebacker, a punter, a backup QB, and a corner who will probably play in the nickel spot. How can you think that those players are ENOUGH free agent acquisitions with (potentially) $29 MILLION in cap room and five draft picks? We came into free agency three impact players away from being a Super Bowl contender, in my opinion. We needed top ten talent at MLB, CB, and S. We could find a DT through the draft. We could add depth (see Ambrose) through the draft. We have signed exactly ZERO of the type of players we need to be good on defense. I shouldn\'t limit that to players though - we dropped the ball with Venturi also. Bottom line - if they don\'t add some talent to this defense (the kind of talent that actually impacts the game), don\'t expect this team to get much better. The REALLY sad thing, is that there are still good players available at the positions we need to fill. Maybe not the top talent - we let that slip away at almost every position - but we could still get better. They\'re doing nothing. Look at these playes we could sign or deal for: MLB - Chris Claiborne, Earl Holmes, Levon Kirkland, Hardy Nickerson, Nate Wayne CB - Charles Woodson, Darrien Gordon, Chris McAlister S - Tebucky Jones, Darius Donovin, Lethon Flowers, Kwamie Lassiter, Chad Cota, Corey Ivy DT - Chester McGlockton, Gilbert Brown
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-23-2003, 08:15 AM	#28
subguy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: FL Posts: 2,057	Carolina Panthers There is nothing wrong with what the Redskins have done this year in Free Agency. I think they have addressed some needs quite well, as has Carolina. Obviously, the outcome is to be seen. I am not sure where the off the wall reference to Cincy came from,but o.k. Everytime I mention the fact that we have not addressed our needs with Free Agency,I am told to relax. We only needed a few pieces of the puzzle, and I don\'t feel we addressed that. We purchased mediocrity. I know it isn\'t over yet and would like to see us secure a bit of quality before draft time. I have a feeling there will be quite a bit of jockeying at the draft.
	Don't want em to get your goat don't show em where it's hid.

03-23-2003, 11:41 AM	#29
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Carolina Panthers Subguy - I wasn\'t disagreeing with you. Reread my post. Lots of people use washington as what not to do in free agency - I think that\'s like using cincinnati as what not to do in the draft. In any case, the Saints haven\'t done near enough in free agency.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

03-23-2003, 11:50 AM	#30
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Carolina Panthers Hey Gator - now they\'re short changing Fontenot and he\'s saying that the organization isn\'t reciprocating his loyalty or offering him what he\'s worth. This is FONTENOT - not Turley. Still think the front office is peachy?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631