Re: Yankees owner George Steinbrenner dead...
 

Not to mention, stepping on the man's grave, what two days after he passed? Come on SF, you're better than that.

Re: Yankees owner George Steinbrenner dead...
 

i'm pretty sure the evidence shows otherwise - see...uh...the Braves, even at their best, weren't in the series every year, although they did with the NL East a whole bunch. I think you are confused on this issue as you are on many others. Still, the Braves were very good for a very long time, with 'mostly' home grown players and one hell of a manager. This is not an accurate representation of Yankees I'm afraid.



Yes, I know.

So tell me then, why, specifically, did it bother you? What about it bothered you? Let's explore this since essentially the same thing that bothered you where the Saints are concerned doesn't seem to register to you on the other side of the equation with the Yankees, so please do elaborate on this a little bit. I'd like to know where you see the difference...


If I have an unfair advantage do you jus accept that? Really? I'd be willing to be that isn't how you really feel. For example, my knowledge of baseball history is better than yours, but you don't accept it, you continue to argue with me. See what I mean? Nobody simply accepts something that is unfair. Do you?


Wrong. I've been an Astros and Braves fan since the mid 70's when we got Cable thanks to Skymike (LOL). See, baseball HAS changed, and your beloved George lead the charge, and his actions hurt the competitive level between MLB teams. Period. You either accept that or you don't. Frankly it appears as though you have accepted that and are willing to live with it. That's fine. Just so we're clear ;)

You don't have to be successful to be called trying. It is a fact that the Yankees and other big market teams used an unfair revenue advantage to outbid smaller market teams for players. The best MLB has been able to do is implement a luxury tax, and you already know who has paid more to that than any other team don't you? Did you simply overlook this? Not likely, but then it isn't very convenient to your Yankee fandom either huh? Would you have been equally upset if the Saints had this benefit? Not likely. If Jerry Jones had the same leverage in the NFL that George has in the MLB you be whining right along with the rest of us, because you wouldn't be blinded by your fandom, which at this point its pretty clear is why you resist the admission that Steinbrenner had and the Yankees continue to have and abuse this very advantage. You can't be helped until you admit you have a problem.

I'm getting mad? I don't get mad. I do enjoy pointing out ignorance, misrepresentations and bogus arguments. This isn't anger. These are facts that you misrepresent and I correct you on. You won't see me get angry. I know enough Yankee fans to know how it is ;)


I expect you to be man enough to see and admit the obvious and not try to blind me with a bunch of statements you can't back up. Have enough respect for me, for the game, and for yourself to stop attempting to side track the discussion or proclaim me as 'mad' as a way to deflect the topic. That's bush league. I expect if you are going to get your panties in a wad because I called out your team and their owner for doing exactly what they do that you bring something tangible to the table if you can. You have not done so. I have countered each silly statement you have made with real information. You can go right on being a Yankee fan. I know it stings when people show you how they have abused the integrity of the game. That's not my problem. As a fan of that organization it is your problem.


Well, when I blame the Yankees for the complete downfall of baseball I'll let you know. Up to this point I have not done so. I have pointed out rather clearly how the Yankees organization and George Steinbrenner have damaged fair competition though. Let's stay on point shall we, or are you just making this stuff up as you go?

You are arguing with yourself man - and this is the standard, by-the-book Yankee fan defense, but it doesn't change the actions of the organization, it just means they aren't smart enough to recognize that karma is real. It isn't about who won last year or even how many the Yankess have won, its about fair play. It's about a level playing field for all parties concerned, and if that's the case and you beat me then congrats to you, but that's the the case in baseball today, and your beloved Yankees essentially started the downfall and your refusal to acknowledge it doesn't change history. You may not like it, and in typical Yankee fan style you'll probably continue to deny it, but it's true. It's a fact, and I'm sorry if it stings. Facts are facts.


But you play fairly...or maybe some of you don't. I do, and I lobby for fair play, and I will teach my son and daughter to play fairly too. I can only hope that they are not so devoid of morals that they can tip the scales unfairly in their favor and still sleep at night. Some of you can do that I guess. The NFL has the right idea. Baseball is trying desperately to stop what George started but pandoras box was opened there long ago....by...wait for it...the Yankees and George Steinbrenner.

They did it with baseball knowledge. They certainly didn't do it by out bidding your favorite team for a player, because as we all know that isn't possible. I have shown you the numbers and poo poo'd your argument otherwise right here in this very thread. But again, it isn't the results of the cheating...it's the cheating.

Yes, you did say that, but I remain unmad...perhaps you can show me where I got mad? What statement that I made caused you to think I was mad? I think you're screwed in this debate and you know it. ;)

Re: Yankees owner George Steinbrenner dead...
 

Stepping on his grave? LMAO. His passing, while unfortunate, doesn't change his legacy. Am I supposed to say only nice things about him for some amount of time?

Oh, he was a great <cough> man to work for
Oh, he was <cough> patient
Oh, he was kind <cough><cough> to his employees
Oh, he was about winning but <cough> championed fair play
Oh, he was <cough> wrongly convicted of a felony
Oh, he was <cough> wrongly banned from baseball

How much time should I let pass before I continue to show you what an ass he was? Give me a break already.

You go right ahead and honor him for 'all he has done', and I will continue to believe he contributed largely to the mess baseball has become. I'll take the evidence, and you can have a blade of grass from his grave site. How'd that be?

Re: Yankees owner George Steinbrenner dead...
 

You know what SF, I you are entitled to your opinion, just as much as i am entitled to mine. I don't remember being a smartass, or trying to talk down to you, in any of my posts, where as, it seems to me, that that's exactly what you are doing to me. I have never treated you with anything but respect, but go back and read the things you have said to me, and you will see what I am talking about. Your baseball knowledge, you knowing more than me, me being a "typical yankee fan".... If that's the way you talk to people, well, then maybe you should work on it, because it could be interpreted that way, you must agree.

Right now, I'm going to leave this conversation, because honestly, I just don't feel like it. To me, it's just a game, not worth all of this. So have a wonderful weekend, and God bless.

Re: Yankees owner George Steinbrenner dead...
 

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are turning away from the facts because you choose to. If you respond to a question with completely incorrect answers, such as your list of teams that you say can spend with the Yankees for example, what do you expect?

I have been far more than a casual baseball observer for more than 30 years. My love for the game started when I began playing at 7 years old. I watched my team stink it up for nearly 20 years before they began winning through savvy talent evaluation as evidenced by their drafting of young players and trading for others. They were managed, both on the field and in the front office to win, and they didn't accomplish it through winning bidding wars either.

Baseball is graceful and powerful at the same time. It is a game of both numbers and hunches. It is both subtle and in your face. It is about strategy and it is about skill. It is woven into our culture and history in a way that other sports are not. Even the NFL falls short in this regard. I truly love the game, and what's more I love the competition at a professional level, because those men play the game, by and large, as well as it can be played.

And so, to deface the spirit of that competition by either not fielding the best team possible or by upsetting the natural order of things in a way the big market teams are able to, to be frank, pisses me off. I think this is why I, along with more people than you probably care to admit, take great joy from watching the Diamondbacks beat the Yankees, or watching the Rays give them an honest run for their money (if you'll please pardon the pun). It is, I confess, a 'stick it to the man' mentality that I often resist in the real world but also draws me to the underdog.

Most Yankee fans I know, when presented with the same evidence I have pointed you to, reply with a sheepish and knowing grin, because they know, in their hearts, the truth. They don't like to admit it. That's fine. I know. Still, it doesn't change anything. They Yankees organization still does what it does, within the rules, technically, so they hang their hat on that, but in their heart they know the Pirates have little to no chance.

I love the game, and so I support a reasonable cap and revenue sharing. It is the needs of the many, if you will forgive the Star Trek reference. Now, if you have a valid argument against this, bring it. Don't try and tell me other teams can do the same thing, and don't bring up owners that don't spend all they could or should, and don't deflect the argument towards me, and don't argue the history of the game with me based on assumptions. Don't tell me that you aren't upset about the Yankees clear financial advantage from one side of your mouth and then reveal that the 49ers doing the same thing (to a much lesser degree I might add) upset you, because you lose credibility, and surely you can see that.

If it makes you feel better, let me say this: They Yankees have developed solid talent on their own. As good as anyone's from time to time. There are some very smart baseball people in that organization, and this is true throughout their history. George Steinbrenner fired most of them at some point or other, because he was an unrealistic hot head hell bent on winning at the expense of anything and everything, to include a man's integrity, which he stomped on again and again and again from 1972 'til the day he died, and that's just his baseball legacy. God only knows who he abused back in Cleveland.

But don't manipulate the numbers. Don't tell me there is no such thing as integrity in sports. Don't tell me to just accept the status quo and keep losing. Don't be that guy. Don't be that Yankee fan.

Don't tell me I cannot compare the best pro sports league, the NFL, with one of the worst, MLB, because there is no common ground. That's just silly. If the NFL is the most popular sport in the country, and the numbers certainly suggest that it is, do you think this has much to do with parity? You bet your ass it does. And don't insult me and indicate you wouldn't feel any different if Jerry Jones were allowed to run his team as Steinbrenner ran his.

Yes, my friend, it is just a game, but I am more than a casual observer, and I take pride in being fair and competing with someone on level ground. This is why I have no respect for the Steinbrenner-run New York Yankees. The values aren't there, only the desire to win at any cost, whether it be their own bill or one the other teams end up paying. George says, "Let them suffer so long as I win." And the irony is that it really didn't get him anywhere did it? So what, then, is his legacy?

And don't tell me I'm disrespecting his life. If there is a heaven and hell, you can bet the farm George Steinbrenner has a lot of questions to answer and actions to answer for before St Peter opens the gate. Hell, he may not even make it past the first cloud before they see him coming and lock down heaven.

Re: Yankees owner George Steinbrenner dead...
 

I don't jump on the Lakers because the integrity of basketball is so far down the tubes that it makes taking that league serious a complete and total waste of my time - so I don't bother. The NBA is Mid-South Wrestling. However the Lakers (Yankees) are exhibit "A" in my argument for a salary cap, revenue sharing, and exactly the place George Steinbrenner would have taken baseball had the rest of the league been equally crooked. Thank you for furthering my point.

Do you like the Lakers? Why, or why not?