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A woman\'s right to choose.... Is that what this is about?

Well, the woman made her decision the moment she ... how can I put this. hmm.. spread her womanhood!! ;)

After that, it\'s two people involved in the decision. The mother and the baby. Ask the baby what his/her decision is.

In case of a tie between the mother and the baby....... The baby wins ... hands down.

You know, anything can be justified. I guess it just comes down to what folks morals are??

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I shouldn\'t jump in here again, but man this thread just won\'t die.

I know families of this type. I know of a newly married couple who recently had to make such a decision, and dude I\'m glad to know that neither you nor I forced them to do something they didn\'t want to do. It was THEIR decision. That you think you have the right to make such a decision for someone else, to me, is insane man. Live like you wanna live...and let other people make the decisions that directly effect THEIR lives for THEMSELVES.

The idea of relating abortion to taking your own life is pointless. The laws against taking your own life (as you know very well) are entirely unrelated. Why bring this up? I\'m guessing because not being able to force what you think on someone else is frustrating. I respect your opinion, but your opinion is just that...yours.

Yes, ScottyRo, it can be so stated...in as much as it can be stated otherwise since we\'re dealing with OPINIONS and not FACTS. Who\'s to say? You think you are. Where your family is concerned maybe you are, but not necessarilly where someone else\'s family is concerned.

Yes. Admit it man. You DO mean to sound condescending here are you\'re doing a really good job at it. Why else would you refer to an aborted fetus as \"Medical Waste\"? It\'s a common practice of the anti-abortionist. They wanna make it sound as dirty and inhumane and as sickening as possible. Why? Ya\'ll think MOST women have abortions like they\'re ordering a cheesburger?

Perhaps it\'s you with the out of line priorities. Have you ever stepped down off the anit-abortion soap box long enough to think that you might be out of line in thinking that YOU have the right to tell a woman that she must have a baby who\'s kidneys don\'t work and has no chance to survive? Perhaps she\'s been told that her life is at risk? Maybe you\'ve just never been close enough to the situation (the woman in question) to have an accurate understanding. Maybe you\'ve been through this yourself. I don\'t claim to know. But I would LOVE to know why you\'re so convinced that you\'re right and everyone else is wrong. I\'d really like to know why you feel that way. Is it a religion thing? Is it a political thing? Did you find all these truths under that same rock Joseph Smith found his?

I don\'t mean to sound so abrasive I swear, and as I said before I can respect your opinion, but that doesn\'t stop me from wanting to know why you think the way you do. For what it\'s worth I\'m arguing the right or wrong of abortion with you, I\'m arguing with you the fact that you think you should have this power of decision. You can try and hold it next to this or that and compare the legality of some other thing against it, but abortion is unlike other things. It\'s personal, and quite frankly you should stay out of the business of other folks.

As Elvis once sang: \"Clean up your own backyard. You tend to your business...I\'ll tend to mine.\"

Right or wrong it\'s the Creator\'s job to deal with, not yours.

Do you eat steak? Was killin that cow wrong? Why not? Because it doesn\'t have a spirit? Who says? God? Did he say that? According to whom? Prove it. ;)

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So, the question is whether or not anyone has a right to tell a woman what to do?

You\'ve got to be kidding me !!!

Dude, there are so many laws that tell us that to do. You know how those became law? Take a wild guess. It was because enough people thought it was something wrong enough to make it against the law.

You have no more right to say a \"woman has the right to choose\" than me saying they shouldn\'t have the right to choose.

Forcing something on someone has NOTHING to do with it. We get sh!t forced on us ALL the time. I\'d like to have 3 wives. But, I can\'t do it. Well, I could, but I\'d go to jail.

I\'d like to not pay taxes. But you would have to visit me in the jail house!!

And it doesn\'t have anything to do with \"when life begins\" either. Because we don\'t know that do we. For all you or ANYONE else knows, it could start at conception. I\'ve always thought it\'s better to err on the side of caution. But let\'s play Russiam Roulette. Let\'s say: \"well, we don\'t know when life begins, so let\'s take a chance.

But the woman had her chance NOT to get pregnant. But she chose to \"take a chance.\" She lost !!! Plain and simple.

People need to take some responsibility for their mistakes and quit taking the EASY way out.

That\'s what\'s wrong with this country today.

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So, in other words, it doesn\'t matter why. There should be no abortion because there are already laws in place that restrict what people do. ahhhh, ok.

Then what, exactly does it have to do with? Your opinion? The laws we have in place that restrict our activity are there generally to keep us from affecting other people with our actions. You\'re not required to wear a seat belt in Texas because the state of Texas gives a damn about whether you live or die. You have to wear a seat belt here (or anywhere else now) because insurance companies are that powerful. Beleive it baby.

It has everything in the world to do with the debate over when life begins as well as how much power YOU have over SOMEONE ELSE\'S body. Beleive that too, and note what the law says too.

What about the death penalty?
What about War?
What that poor cow in my previous post?

Don\'t get me wrong Billy. I\'m all about takin responsibility too. I\'m not arguing whether abortion is right or wrong. I\'m arguing a womans right to choose, or more specifically your lack of a right to tell a complete stranger whos circumstances you are totally unfamiliar with what she should do.

It\'s just not as simple as saying, \"well, it\'s wrong, obviously, so it shouldn\'t be allowed\". It\'s nowhere NEAR that simple, and if you or anyone else can\'t see past that then I have to think you\'re not trying very hard.

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What is an aborted fetus then? Are we gonna call it a \"dead baby that didn\'t deserve to live\"? That sounds more enciting than medical waste. I actually thought medical waste was going to be a pretty neutral term. You tell me what to call it and I\'ll use that term, but it must be a truthful term that doesn\'t simply brush the truth of what it is under the rug so you don\'t have to hear yourself say \"dead baby\".

They are vastly different but I used it for a vastly different purpose than you suggest. I was not comparing the two. I was showing how individual liberties are not absolute by pointing out what would happen if you threatened to kill yourself. That\'s all. Grrlscout kept analogizing the two.

Well, yeah, I probably did overstate my opinion as fact. I\'ll admit that although the law in certain personal injury cases on the subject agrees with my view. However, I\'d bet dollars to donuts that psychiatric professionals would label a person with some sort of \"insane\" moniker if that person were to state that he would have been better off having never been born, truly meaning it.

The ropes must be nawing into your back pretty badly, if you\'re really gonna use a worst case scenario argument on me. I\'ve stated many times that there are more difficult questions buried in this debate that we should not really go into because the length of the simple debate is so long.

Another cop-out argument made as if we have absolute freedoms and nobody ever looks over anybody else\'s shoulder. Take the blindres off, man, and get into the REAL U.S.

Can you really be this contradictory? You tell me that we shouldn\'t even compare suicide and abortion and you want to bring in the cow versus baby argument? If I don\'t see another thing posted on this board til the start of the season, I want to see you admit that you\'re wrong here.

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What I\'m trying to do ScottyRo is figure out how it is that people think they have the right to make this sort of decision on behalf of someone else. Someone they don\'t know. Someone who\'s circumstances they are totally unaware of, simply because they think they\'re right. The law doesn\'t give you that right. Society has told you that you don\'t have that right, and yet you\'re still at it, and I wonder why?

You responded to Elvis and made fun of the cow, but you didn\'t answer the question I most wanted you to answer. WHY do you feel this way? Why is killing the cow for veal so much different than killing the baby to save the mothers life or because SHE made the personal decision to abort it? YOU tell ME where\'s the difference, and tell me WHY you feel that way, and then explain to me how come you\'re right and I\'m wrong.

Dude, it\'s not about a worst case scenario. You don\'t care about the scenario. That\'s my whole point. You just think you\'re right...period. You can\'t see past it.

You\'re right there man. This gets REALLY deep. It\'s your opinion versus someone elses versus someone elses. Now, if you\'re not propping yourself up with religion and the \"Good book\" then what is it? It is my opinion that when you recognize that everyone doesn\'t think the way you think or think way you think they should think then you\'ll understand. But not until then. You\'ll still think abortion is wrong, but you\'ll have faith in the fact that you\'re not in control (nor should you be) of what a woman does in that situation.

Do you show up at abortion clinics and councel women about to have the procedure?

Do you show up at prisons prior to an execution and councel the executioner?

Do you protest War?

Do you go to inner city neighborhoods and council folks there in crack houses before they go bust a cap in somebody for their next blow?

No? Why not? Because the fetus doesn\'t have a voice? Please! Why have you chosen the abortion issue when I\'d bet good money you don\'t do any of these other things. What gives man? Whether or not that baby (or whatever it is) is alive at point \"a\" or \"b\", why not spend all that energy on people that are living minus the debate about whether or not they are? I wonder.

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Ok Saintfan, you asked and I don\'t mind telling. This is where I come from on this debate.

When I was 17, I became sexually active. This is when I began to form my thoughts on abortion. The reality of my opinion about it around that time was that I wasn\'t really in favor of it, but I wanted it to be legal in case I needed it. As I have gotten older and more mature, I have realized that if I were to get a woman pregnant unexpectantly, I should accept that responsibility rather than have the child pay with its life for my mistake.

I was raised in church, but didn\'t attend from the time I was 16 until about 31. I can\'t really say that religion affected my decision. There was a time when I might have called myself an atheist. Certainly, it wasn\'t the church since I wasn\'t going at that time. I think of myself as a fairly philosophical sort of person in that even in things I am told about at church I search out for myself the answer I believe to be correct.

You put the woman\'s right to choose first and I can understand that. All I can tell you is that I see that right to choose as an UNFORTUNATE victim in that situation because the life of the child comes first to me. It seems like you think I set out to take away that right when that is not the case. It is collateral damage so to speak because it is subsequent to a greater good.

You say things that make it seem like you are getting angry at me when you read my opinions and I think it is because you misinterpret the reasonings for my opinions. I\'m trying to elaborate as much as possible so you can see that my intent here is to be as honest as possible with you.

The summary here if I haven\'t gotten it across is that my view on this has changed, but it wasn\'t affected by my religious views as you want to suggest. Whether I was truly an atheist or just a person that wanted to say he believed more in science is irrelevant, because during that time I did not believe abortion was the right thing to do. I decided to start attending church again for many reasons, but I had long before had my mind set on which was the more important issue.

Go ahead. Call me a liar. Suggest that I\'ve conjured up this post only to further my views. There\'s nothing I can do to prove to you otherwise that I am telling you the truth except post this. If you wont believe this, then there\'s nothing I can tell you that you\'ll believe or honestly consider.

Note that I hadn\'t read your last post when I wrote this. I just want that clear.

[Edited on 20/8/2004 by ScottyRo]

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Maybe because I think that saving children is important enough that I\'d risk ruffling your feathers over it to discuss the topic and say that I don\'t think it\'s right. How is that wrong? Don\'t I have 1st Amendment right to say that?

Man, you don\'t know how I feel on the subject entirely. The problem is that it\'s just too hard to discuss every single scenario possible. This medium is too limiting. I prefer to talk about the less difficult questions here because it\'s easier to do so.

Further, you accuse me of not seeing past something. This seems awfully contradictory when you\'re holding onto your views just as adamantly as I. Aren\'t you also one that can\'t see past it. Whatever IT is.

I will say again that I\'ve done what I can to avoid religios and biblical foundations in my arguments. I have tried to state my opinions in legal and philosophical terms only unless asked otherwise. Those who have been debating me on this and who agree with you will at least agree with me on that.

C\'mon! It is abundantly clear that people disagree with me. This debate has raged (and ebbed) on here for weeks and only recently has anyone that comes to this site said anything on my side about it. But you say things like the above in a way that tells me you don\'t think I have a right to disagree. In what way are you not trying to get me to think like you think? I guess it\'s ok for you to do it but not me since I might have been tainted by some religion.

Again, you harp so hard on the \"control\" issue it\'s obvious you\'re not reading a thing I have to say about it. Control is not the issue for me. Saving lives is. You keep asking me about the \"why\'s\" of this debate so I have one for you.

Why is the woman\'s right to choose greater and more important than the child\'s right to life, if any?

Go ahead. Dazzle me. Show me that you\'ve actually thought this through and you\'re not just spouting \"women\'s choice\" arguments you\'ve been hearing elsewhere.

No to all three. Does that mean I can\'t have an opinion? Let me say again you\'ve either forgotten or you haven\'t READ the previous posts on this thread. So, before you ask me about justifications for killing go look up my opinion for yourself.

In what way could this possibly be relevant to a discussion about abortion? You\'re all over the place, man.

So now I have to be out counseling people in order to hold an opinion on an issue. You know what? We\'re here discussing things. If you want to discuss those, start a thread on them. I guess if you have to be involved to have an opinion, then you\'re the guy getting all these girls pregnant and taking them to get abortions or counseling them to have them. I know you\'re an intelligent guy. Slow down before you write and you\'ll stop making these rediculous errors in logic.

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I\'m not saying her right to choose is greater than the childs right to life. I\'m saying I don\'t have the right to make that decision for her. Neither do you man. You don\'t have that right because people WAY smarter than either of us have thought and thought about it and they figured the woman should have the right to figure out what\'s best for her.

Scotty -- Man I\'m not callin\' you a liar. I\'ve said before I respect your opinion. I\'ve even indicated that I, too, think that abortion is wrong...that\'s what my gut tells me. Somewhere deep down I think it\'s not the right thing to do in \"most\" cases; however, I just can\'t imagine myself ever using what \"I\" think is right or wrong as justification to force my opinion on someone else. I especially don\'t think I should be given that power over someone I don\'t know...someone who\'s circumstances are beyond my knowledge.

I type angry sometimes. Don\'t take me personally...ever. I just come across that way. The fact is that abortion is legal. That\'s the only fact we\'ll come up with here. I get miffed when I hear the anti-abortion activitists hollerin\' on the radio about how all these women are going to hell, or using the most disgusting language possible to describe the procedure. I detest their \"in your face\" tactics. I have no doubt an abortion isn\'t a fun time. These people, to me, are WAY over the top and likely in need of attention. They should go and live their own lives ya know? Now I\'m not speaking of you. You seem to have the ability to debate the issue intelligently...more so than me even...but then again that\'s not very difficult. :P

The issue of right or wrong goes deep man. You said so yourself. If you acknowledge that then you must also acknowledge that it\'s just not as simple as pro-choice people being misguided. You may think they\'re misguided, but everything is with respect to where you\'re viewing it from. You may not be able to comprehend someone else\'s reasoning behind a particular decision they make about a particular thing because you\'re not living their reality. I shake my head at the ignorance I see daily, but I also remind myself that other people view me through their reality too. At least that\'s my opinion. Because I feel that way I believe a woman should be allowed to make her own decision. That\'s her baby and none of my business. If it\'s wrong then she\'ll pay for that decision. It\'s not up to me. I might suggest to her that there are options, but that\'s as far as I\'ll go. That\'s as far as I have to go morally since I do beleive what I beleive.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I don\'t sweat that, and I hope you don\'t. In my heart I think the right to choose is the right thing even tho I think abortion isn\'t morally sound. I\'m all for the death penalty. I think war is sometimes necessary and I\'d like to see Iraq made into the worlds biggest parking lot mostly because I don\'t think those folks in the middle east really want peace. They like to fight. They are a plague spreading across the planet and they should be eliminated. Saddam was brutal because he HAD to be. There is no peace with those animals. How\'s that for over the top! LOL I think the abuse of animals is wrong, but cook me a steak any day. LOL

[Edited on 20/8/2004 by saintfan]

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Me, myself alone doesn\'t have the right to choose for her. No sir!! But, WE the MAJORITY of the people of the United States does !!

saintfan --

If a woman is raped, or the child is going to be born with some kind of birth defect, then abortion should be an option.

If a woman goes out and gets pregnent because SHE chose to be careless, then that\'s WRONG !! Spin it however you want, but a human life is THE BIGGEST price to pay that you could possibly think of.

Believe it or not, saintfan, the woman had all kind of options before she got pregnent. She could have not had sex. She could have used protection. She could have done all kinds of things. You know who had no choice in this matter? The baby !!

So who deserves to pay the price? The mother or the baby?

Get back to me on that and NO SPIN!!

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All the protection she (and her boyfriend) used failed. She didn\'t want to get pregnant. Will you then give her your permission if she can prove she tried to prevent it? And why should you factor so greatly in HER life? Let GOD (if there is such a thing) deal with her.

The Majority says she can choose Billy.

If it\'s alive then it\'s alive. Why do you think a birth defect is any reason to allow it?

The \"price\" is the big debate isn\'t it? It\'s HER life and HER baby...not yours...not your decision. That\'s my opinion for all the reasons I\'ve mentioned in this thread.

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First thing, leave God out of it. Has nothing to do with what I\'m talking about. I\'m talking about responsibility for ones own actions. That\'s my agenda, saintfan.

If the protection failed, then she knew that risk before hand, didn\'t she? As a matter of fact, all women know that before hand don\'t they?

They know there\'s a chance they could get pregnent. They don\'t know when life begins either do they? And neither do you, do you?

But they do know if they get pregnant that they have the right to kill an unborn child because there\'s enough folks out there in the world like you who just look the other way.

Folks who say: \"Who am I to say anything?\' It\'s her body, her decision.\"

What a cop out.

Stand up for something saintfan. What better thing to stand up for than a human life?

[Edited on 21/8/2004 by GumboBC]

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Cop Out? Hardly. Stand up for something? I believe I am. I\'m standing up for my right to make a decision...and a difficult one at that...without your input since I know what\'s best for me. I want that freedom. I am allowed that freedom here (thank God) because my decision doesn\'t affect you. You don\'t know me. You don\'t know any of these women you condem either. All you know is what you\'ve seen and think and feel with respect to your persepctive. I have my own. Whodat has his own. And somewhere in America there\'s a woman making a difficult decision about which you know nothing. I think if a woman is pregnant she should also have that freedom, and I don\'t thing you have the right to take that freedom away from her simply because you deem her decision as wrong. No Spin baby. Right or Wrong Billy it\'s not your decision to make. You don\'t have to like it. That\'s part of this \"freedom\" deal. No, you don\'t have to like it, but your displeasure with a particular thing does not make you the decision maker. No spin baby. For some people that\'s a hard pill to swallow. I understand that, but that\'s the way it is...and thank God that it is. ;)

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I just want to point out that this issue was settled by a court of 9, not a majority vote of the people. The vote on the court was 5-4, if I remember correctly.

I write this just to say that you may not be accurate in saying the majority believe abortion is ok. I can\'t dispute that either.

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If the majority didn\'t think so things would be different. You know it and I know it...and there\'s nary a better system in the world. Try and take that freedom and see where you land. ;)

Start a new thread and lets take a little vote. Where do you think the opinion will fall ScottyRo?

[Edited on 21/8/2004 by saintfan]

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I believe that too. Ben Franklin had this to say, (I paraphrase) The Constitution as drafted was not perfect, but it was the best he could imagine being drafted at the time.

I state that to say that we live in a great country, but there\'s definitely improvement to be made.

The majority of the people of the US voted for Al Gore and he\'s still not President. This is just an example of one way in which the majority wouldn\'t necessarily get its way.

[Edited on 21/8/2004 by ScottyRo]

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Scotty, you\'re quote regarding \"reality\" is accurate. ;)

Start that poll will ya? Let\'s see. Now I\'m curious.

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saintfan --

You seem to have a lot of sympathy for some woman, somewhere, who might have to have a baby becasue SHE got herself pregnant.

Millions of women have babies and are perfectly fine. SO ARE THE BABIES!! Who is getting harmed that way? NOBODY !!

Does it cause the woman a little discomfort? Yes, it does. But nobody put her in the position she\'s in but herself. And she can put the baby up for adoption. That seems to be the RIGHT thing to do. The logical thing to do.

But, we got folks who ALLOW women to KILL unborn babies in the name of \"CONVIENCE\" !! And make no mistake, in 99% of abortions that\'s what it is. It\'s a convience !!

I have NO sympathy for those folks. NONE !!

Of course, there are cases where common sense should prevail. Nothing is black and white. And certainly not the abortion issue.

I know the difference between right and wrong. And this is a pretty easy one to determine.

I realize I\'m not going to change your mind. Remember, slavery was once legal. Was it right? You\'ll have to decide that for yourself. It\'s a pretty easy answer for me. I\'m betting you\'ll have to think that one over?

Stand up for what\'s right ! Make people accountable and this WILL be a better country!!

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Do you? And you\'re basing this knowledge on what, exactly? Is what\'s \"right\" for you \"right\" for me? Is it \"right\" for some person halfway across the globe?

It\'s not about sympathy for anyone. It\'s about preventing people like you from making very personal decisions for someone else when it\'s none of your business.

According to Whom? Are you now the \"right thing to do\" police?

Have there been any people knocking on your door looking for sympathy. See just how little you matter in their decision? Go figure.

See Billy, the debate rages on about when it\'s a life. There\'s so solid evidence that points to that particular point. That\'s where you\'re caught. If you think you have the right to force a woman to do someting to her body then you\'re livin in the wrong country. They have control of their woman like that over in the middle east.

Now, knock yourself out. If you care so much why don\'t you and ScottyRo start up a little anti-abortion rally somewhere down on Bourbon Street. If you live through the day go back for day two. Go ahead. Try and convince the women in this country that you and ScottyRo know what\'s best for them short and long term.

You wanna make it \"wrong\" to get an abortion. I\'m inclined to agree. But I\'m comfortable allowing another person to make that decision on their own. If you\'re not comfortable with that then see if you can make a change. I dare you. ;)

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saintfan -- Whether or not I can make a difference or not doesn\'t have anything to do with this issue.

You keep saying NO ONE has the right to tell a woman she can\'t have an abortion. You say some stranger doesn\'t have the right to do so. Do we have to know the person personally to know the difference between right and wrong? That\'s just silly. What the hell does that have to do with it? NOTHING !!

I don\'t have to know her to know she got herself pregnant. I don\'t have to know her to know she should have the baby and put it up for adoption. If the woman is healthy enough to have the child, she should do that. I\'m sorry that she\'s going to have to be miserable for 9 months. I\'m sorry she made a mistake. I wish she wouldn\'t have gotten herself pregnant if she didn\'t want a child. Sh!t happens though. Deal with it !! Do the RIGHT thing !!

I don\'t want to control folks lives. I\'m not trying to control folks lives. I\'m trying to SAVE lives. And you can\'t tell me a \"NEW\" live wouldn\'t happen if she didn\'t get an abortion. Forget when live begins. There\'s no proving that one. EVER !! But the \"process\" of forming a new life has begun.

You know who started that process? The MOTHER !!

What\'s next? Is termination of life before the age of one OK? There\'s no harm done there is it? The child will never know it got killed. Do you remember anything before the age of ONE? I don\'t !!

Oh, I got it. As long as the umbillical cord is attached, it\'s ok for the mother to kill the child. It\'s her decision as long as the umbillical cord is attached. Cut that cord and it becomes murder. That\'s a fine line there, my friend.

I\'ve always said anything can be justified. Somewhere, someone, come up with an idea.

Idea:

\"Hey there\'s too many people in this world. Women could terminate there pregnacy, but the people wouldn\'t stand for that. How do we change their mind? Hmm....

I know, let\'s put up the arguement that NO ONE knows when life begins. Let\'s tell folks livf doens\'t begin untill the baby is actually born? Nah, that won\'t buy that. Let\'s say the 8th month of pregnancy is whan life starts. Nah...let\'s make it the 6th month. Or maybe the 5th month. Yep, the 5th month the baby should only be half formed. They\'ll buy that.

Some did buy it, saintfan. I ain\'t buying what they sellin\' though..... ;)

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Well Billy...nobody is trying to sell you a frappin\' thing. Women want the right to choose. It\'s THEIR body. THEIR decision to make. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT about right or wrong. Right and Wrong are relative. You don\'t seem to get that. If you want to be in a place where you get to decide or have control over what a woman does to her body then move east, cause you\'re not going to get that control here. It may frustrate you to no end that women get abortions. So be it. Go lose some sleep over it, but at the end of the day you still don\'t get to make that decision.

Truth be told you don\'t lose any sleep over all these innocent lives do you. You lay down at night and drift away. You wake up the next day rested and ready for another day in the life of Billy. If it botherd you so much you\'d do SOMEthing wouldn\'t you? Or are you just here to argue a point? Have you discussed this issue with women? Have you heard what they have to say, or do you get all your info from the evening News? In other words, are you knee deep in this issue or are you just walkin\' around thinking you\'re right unable to understand why or how someone else might think differently?

The BOTTOM line is this has been thoroughly discussed and a decision has been made. That decision was to allow women the freedom to choose. This decision was made by people a lot smarter than you and I, and they put a lot more time and effort into that decision than this silly little debate, and so that\'s the way it is. You don\'t have to like it...you have the freedom to voice your displeasure. That\'s where it ends tho, because what\'s \"right\" for you -- so plain and simple in your mind -- ain\'t always what\'s right for me. I\'m not sellin you a flippin\' thing, I just don\'t get why you don\'t get it.

Wanna go save some lives? Bourbon Street is waiting. ;)

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Oh, you\'re doing your level headed best to \"sell\" folks on why killing a child is OK.

I supose I don\'t have the right to tell folks they need to get a job and quit living off welfare too, huh? Who am I to tell folks they need to do the right thing? Who\'s to say what\'s right or wrong? I don\'t know these people. Maybe it\'s their parent\'s fault they don\'t have any \"do right\" in \'em.

No, I can\'t force them to get a job, saintfan. It\'s a free country. But, I do know the difference between right and wrong. I\'m sure you are probably one of those folks who voulenteer to hand out free cheese and milk to those folks?

I suppose I\'m just one of those arrogant people who tries to force my belief on other people. Martin Luther King was one of those folks too. Got him killed, but he stood up for what he believed in. Did it in New Orleans too. Maybe you heard of the guy? Or maybe he put you off with his \"moral\" beliefs? Or do you have any morals? I don\'t know you and I\'m sure you do have morals. But, they are sure not showing through on this issue.

Am I 100% right on this issue. Maybe, maybe not. But, if I\'m going to make a mistake, it\'s going to be on the side of caution. Forcing the mother to take some responsibility isn\'t asking a whole lot. Not when there\'s another human life at stake.

I\'m comfortable with my stand. I do sleep good at night, saintfan. I\'ve not saved any lives. But, I haven\'t been going around trying to covince folks it\'s ok to kill an innocent child either.

Been sleeping well lately?!?! Somewhere out there are folks who are undecided on this issue. Why don\'t you go out on your town square and tell folks that it\'s ok to kill innocent children. Or beter yet, tell \'em it doesn\'t make any difference to you. You\'re ok with it one way or the other.





[Edited on 21/8/2004 by GumboBC]

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What makes it none of my business? The whole pro-abortion argument is based on a world that does not exist. You\'re main argument time and time again is that it is her body. Obviously, here your saying it\'s not my business because it is her body.

The her body argument is so weak it\'s laughable. If you think that you have absolute and total control over your body in this country then, you\'re once again ignoring the truth. \"Freedom\" is a misnomer if you want to apply it to your actions. You are not free to do whatever you want - not even with your own body. I\'ll cite my suicide remarks above. Bottomline, if you threaten it, they\'ll come and take you to a nuthouse to prevent it.

You further said:Again, she\'s not as free in this country as you\'d like to pretend. But looking at it from another angle, what is it that I\'m suggesting is done to her body that she hasn\'t already done herself? I\'m not suggesting we force her to get pregnant...she already is. The truth is that I\'m suggesting hat we prevent her from doing something to herself because that something has a fatal affect on another individual. There are plenty of laws that prevent people from doing things to themselves.

I know you don\'t feel that a mother of a born child should have the right to kill that child under any circumstances. I don\'t doubt that one bit. So in the end, all the ills that may come from having an unwanted child aren\'t sufficient to justify killing the child that has been born. That limits you pretty much to the \"it\'s her body\" argument since that is the only difference.

So, why don\'t you find for me the phrase in the Constitution or the amendments that says a person has an absolute right to do to their bodies whatever they choose. Also, try to find one that states that a person has an absolute right to choose what is right for his or her self.

When you don\'t find those, then you can stop making those remarks such as \"not in this country\" and \"that\'s middle east ways\". Your rights are restricted in many ways. The right to vote is the most freedom you are going to have and even that can be taken away.

It\'s time to stop using these absolutes in your arguments because they are too naive a way of thinking for an intelligent person like yourself.

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This is a pretty lame argument too. Is it the \"you don\'t really feel that way or you\'d be out doing something about it\" argument? Or the \"you don\'t have the right to talk about it since you\'re not out fighting against it everyday\" argument?

So, I\'m going to step out on a limb and guess that you\'re in favor of the war in Iraq. Others are out in the street protesting this - probably right now. But you\'re sitting in front of a computer arguing about abortion instead of heading out to protest the protesters. Or to carry signs in favor of the war. Does that mean you don\'t have the right to support the war?

No.

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You BET it is. It sure isn\'t your body or your pregnancy. How arragont do you have to be to fail to see that?

You freakin\' lawyers, I swear. Shakespear was on to you guys.

Let me ask you a question counselor, if I may. Why is suicide illegal? If you\'re gonna use that as your \"you don\'t have the right to do any thing you want\" argument -- as if I\'m not very much aware of that -- then you explain it to me. Rather, tell me why you think it\'s not legal, because I already know why it\'s not legal and it has nothing to do with saving lives. Go ahead sir, and explain that one. Then, hush, ok, because it\'s irrelevant and unimportant. Its another tactic used by anit-abortionists that doesn\'t hold water (pardon the expression), but you go ahead Scotty and give it your best shot. Remember the question and try not to drift. ;) Please also take into account that while I never went to law school I grew up around people that did. I have many friends who\'ve been pratcing law since before you were born I\'m sure, so go easy on the whole \"You don\'t really understand freedom\" thing.

Dude, we learned this in the 6th grade if not before. You didn\'t figure this out in law school...at least I hope you didn\'t. All the things you wanna bring up about not having total freedom have not one thing to do with abortion.

OK Mr. Lawyer. At this point you get to define \"individual\", and then you get to convince the world, or at least all the women in america, why it is that your definition is \"right\" and there\'s isn\'t. See, you can\'t do this cause of what comes next Scotty. You\'ll have doctors tellin (not simply advising) women all sorts of things they must do or else. Else what you ask? Else in your perfect world I guess they\'d go to jail? WHAT? You didn\'t eat your Carrots last night? Don\'t you know they\'ll put you in jail for that?

My work here is done. I knew better than to chime in at all. There\'s no dealing with you people. LOL

I\'ll say again Scotty, that I appreciate your point, I really do, but I disagree with you from the bottom of my soul. To change my mind you\'ll have to be able to point definitively to the precise point when life begins. I know when you think it begins, but what you think isn\'t proof. Further, I\'m not so sure I\'d wanna take away a woman\'s right to choose even then. I say that because I really do think she should do what\'s best for her. I don\'t go to church, but I believe. I don\'t go to church for a thousand reasons, and I\'m sure there are a thousand more reasons I just haven\'t bothered to think of. Ultimately, that woman who\'s abortion you\'re trying to prevent may have a couple thousand reasons of her own why she disagrees with you, and you can\'t prove her wrong. You will NEVER be able to prove her wrong, and so, in the end, if there\'s a God, and if abortion is wrong, then that woman will have to deal with that. It\'s not my job you see? Neither is it yours. It\'s not Billy\'s either, even tho he thinks with all his heart that he\'s right.

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What do you know, no one is able to win this argument. Whoahda thunk it?

saintfan -- You believe a woman has a right to make a decision that affects her and her unborn child. And you believe that decision is hers and hers alone.

Maybe you\'re right. Maybe that\'s the way it should be. It certainly isn\'t affecting my life. And as you\'ve already mentioned, you\'re not losing any sleep over it. You don\'t care one way or the other. Fine if they do, fine if they don\'t.

Maybe I\'m overstepping by boundaries when I say it shouldn\'t be allowed. I don\'t know the womans situation and I don\'t know what\'s best for HER. If SHE is forced to have this baby, HER life could be atltered forever. SHE might lose her boyfriend. SHE might not get to go to college. HER parents might disown HER. SHE might even become depressed.

But you know what? I still can\'t help but feel sorry for that unborn child. That little child who never had any say-so in whether it gets to live or not. Call me HUMAN, but that\'s the way I feel.

And call me a selfish HUMAN, but I just don\'t feel sorry for the woman. And why should I? Seems she\'s the one that\'s being selfish to me. Thinking only of HERself. Maybe she\'s thinking about the child? But that\'s hard for me to believe. I mean, she\'s willing to KILL the unborn child.

I wish folks didn\'t commit crimes so harsh that they had to face the death penalty. But they made the decision to commit the crime. It was their decision and their decision alone. No one held a gun to their head and forced them to commit the crime. You do the crime and you must do the time.

The pregnant woman made the decision to commit the act of sex. It\'s unfortnate for HER that she got pregnant. The punishment should fit the crime. In this case, she should be forced to have the baby and put it up for adoption.

The law says lots of things. Some right. Some wrong. This is one law that needs to be changed. Common sense should prevail.

[Edited on 21/8/2004 by GumboBC]

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Man I just can\'t help myself. It\'s always about SHE SHE SHE and never the fetus. She\'s alive. When the fetus qualifies is up for debate. SHE SHE SHE might think differently than YOU YOU YOU, and it\'s HER HER HER body not YOURS YOURS YOURS. Get it yet?

Oh yeah? Really? She did did she? Hmmmmm? And what if she didn\'t? Then what? C\'mon Billy and make that decision for her. She\'s waiting.

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If she was raped, I\'d be willing to let her have have an abortion. I still wouldn\'t like it. But I could understand. That was out of her control.

I\'d still feel sorry for the child. But that is the way I would handle the situation if the law were left up to me.

On the other hand, saintfan, at what month during the preganancy would you NOT allow the abortion?

Would you allow it in the 9th month?

PLEAE answer that question?

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Until the fetus can sustain it\'s own life Billy, whenever that may be.

So then is this the battle to save lives or only selected ones? You can get the anti-abortion hoard on that one EVERY time. So, you\'d be willin\' to let her huh? I\'m very sure that all the women in the world are glad to hear YOU say that. Are we saving HUMANS here or aren\'t we. Are we saving only those human lives that are born without defects or are we saving the ones who will be born without kidneys that will certainly die when \"born\"? There are a thousand and more other scenarios Billy, and NONE of \'em concern you, nor should they matter to you, because, as I have been trying to say...IT\'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS...and that fact remains even if you think you\'re right.

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So there would come a point during the pregnancy that you would TELL a woman she couldn\'t have an abortion. Who the HELL are YOU to make that decision, saintfan. Her body, her decison.

No one\'s interested in your personal beliefs saintfan. Just because the baby could sustain life does NOT make it your decison. Get it? Probably not!!

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You\'re gonna have to tell me when that is because I think it is well after birth when a child becomes old enough to even begin doing things for itself. If it can\'t survive on its own, just kill it, huh?

You know, that BABY BABY BABY has a BODY BODY BODY of its OWN OWN OWN too. What I dion\'t understand is how you can be so passionately against the only completely innocent person in the mix.

And don\'t use the when life begins thing either because you can\'t say for sure that it is not alive at conception. Why must my side be the side that proves it? Seems like the fairest thing to do is err on the side of it being a life at conception until proven otherwise.

Why do think the death penalty is tied to a \"beyond a reasonable doubt\" standard? Because it errs on the side of caution. We want to be a sure as possible before killing a human. But YOU are in favor of abandoning this standard when it comes to abortion simply because some woman, whose situation I might not entirely know, doesn\'t want the nine month or so problem of having a baby. That, my friend, seems off to me and I\'d really like to know why you feel it should be different.

You\'ve already admitted that you cannot say that you do not have doubts about whether the child is alive at conception or not.

Do you disagree that the child is giving up more (70+ years on average) than the mother who is forced to give birth to an unwanted child (nine months)?

Lastly, if you want to get all your lawyer friends to jump online and try to thump me on my views about freedom then do it. I feel very strongly that I haven\'t overstated the truth. It doesn\'t take a law degree to understand that your freedom is restricted. ANd it does matter in this discussion because you\'re toting the \"it\'s her right to choose\" banner like it\'d be the first time anyone\'s actions were restricted. I say again that you\'re ignoring the real world situation when you are so indignantly throwing that argument out.

Oh yeah, Shakespeare WAS right about lawyers. I know! :P

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You guys aren\'t really amazing. You\'d probably like to think so tho. Cut the cord, the baby is now officially alive without the mother. Get it? Try really hard.

No Scotty. I don\'t know. And neither do you, which is why the decision is best left up to the person who is closest to the situation. That person isn\'t you no matter how guilty you might feel about your past. Sorry.

Hey, Mr. Lawyer, the death penalty deals with know living people does it not. You cannot tie the two together in leagle ease no matter what they told you in law school.

Man o Man. The righteous just don\'t get it. EVERYTHING you\'re saying, or shall I say NOTHING your\'e saying or have said is factual Scotty. It\'s that \"beyond a reasonable doubt\" thing they taught you in law school that\'s gonna catch you every time.

Did I now? Where? Either I mis-spoke or you didn\'t read or properly understand something. My biggest supporting argument here is that I DON\"T KNOW if conception is the moment or not. Neither do you. You THINK it is and for whatever reason -- one you won\'t readily admit -- you think you\'re smarter than, oh, EVERYBODY since we\'re not all convinced.

Bottom line boys is it\'s not your decision to make...and it\'s not ever gonne be...deal with it ;)

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It\'s that you don\'t know. That means there is a reasonable doubt in your mind that it might be alive at conception. you can\'t say for sure that it\'s not alive. That\'s where you\'ve said it. Give me some compelling reasons why your side shouldn\'t have to prove that it\'s not alive at that point.

And there\'s no reason to get insulting and accuse me of thinking I\'m smarter than everybody else. I\'ve commented on your obvious intelligence more than once. Just because I disagree with you doesn\'t make me holier than thou or arrogant. Are you just mad because I keep pointing out your arguments weaknesses and all you can do is make personal attacks?

You accuse me of not seeing the other side while you do the exact same thing. How is it that your not being self-righteous in your views on this? You\'re the one putting something so fleeting as the right to choose above the right to live of something that very may well be a living child.

Things are not certain to remain as they are now. So you deal with that. ;)

So, it\'s not alive one minute and then it\'s magically alive after you cut the cord? Forget partial birth abortions. Birth the whole thing. Just don\'t cut the cord until you\'ve smashed its head. Yeah, makes sense to me. :casstet:

By your logic, you could break into my house and cut the 8 1/2 month old \"fetus\" out of my wife and throw it away and not be guilty of murder unless my wife dies from your actions. (All the other crimes aside.) You may have a hard time believing this, but that child is as alive to me as much in the womb as she will be when she\'s out. I would think you murdered her regardless of what the law says.

And, of course, it only has a right to live if it is already alive. So, if it\'s not alive at conception, it doesn\'t have a right to a life that certainly will come at some point without your interference or without a natural event preventing it? The mother has some greater right not to be burdened with a pregnancy. Whatever.

You\'re the amazing one.

Go ahead and avoid the issues by telling me none of that applies without backing up why it doesn\'t apply.

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There you go again, missing the point...on purpose. Stop being a lawyer long enough to have a \"real\" conversation. ;)

Sorry to offend. I know I come across that way, but in typical lawyer fashion you speak of freedom as if you\'re not aware of the fact that most of us are aware that we can\'t yell \"BOMB!\" in an airport. It\'s annoying, and it\'s offensive.

This will go nowhere since you and others like you want to draw the line where YOU see fit. I, on the other hand am thankful to be one of the majority who thinks you and Billy and your like don\'t get to draw that line based on your perception of the way things ought to be. People are different. Our views are different. There is nothing definitive in your argument against a woman\'s right to choose and that\'s where your side falls short...and sadly fails to realize. You can\'t prove when life begins Scotty, so all this legal hubub about this law and that law and the other law is a wash. You KNOW this and yet you continue to reach and grasp for any thing you can in an attempt to prove your point. It\'ll NEVER work...none of it is factual. Think you\'ve proved something here? Take it to court and see how far you get. PS, I hope the judge is a woman! ;)

Ultimately, I\'d rather the \"power\" as it were, be given to the person affected most by the decision, and not you or Billy or Big Brother. That person is the woman considering the abortion. And No, Scotty (and Billy) the fetus is not the \"person\" most affected. It\'s not really a person yet, is it? Well, at least it\'s not yet legally. ;)