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Hey buddy...don\'t beat around the bush.

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Ahh, wee wee. But how can we possibly fight when we have dropped our rifles and are now running from you?

The biggest joke of WWII was when we let DeGalle (I think?) \"lead\" the liberation into Paris. What a bunch of candy a$$ queens. I think we should have divided up their country too, just for being subserviant wussies!!

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Ah, the American propoganda machine has worked well on you guys. Two things to consider:

1. Gator is right for comparing the current situation to WWII. One can reasonably argue that the US government has no greater responsibility than it has to its citizens. Is Iraq a threat? As a nation, minimally. But there are a lot of groups that operate there who are. More importantly, the weapons being made there are very very scary. In the wrong hands they could kill a lot of people. For that reason I am inclined to support action against Iraq.

However, any action is no good unless the military is free to do its job. Sometimes that involves doing things that are unpleasant in order to find certain people, weapons, etc. Unfortunately, the American public at large is not willing to allow the army to do the things it needs to do. It wants our men to act humanely in a situation that is inheriently not. For that reason, hands will be tied and the type of victory that keeps this threat from becoming a threat again is not obtainable. That makes me question any action against Iraq.

2. One has to consider the hypocracy in all of this. Here we are, citizens of the greatest military power in the world, with probably the most advanced weapons program in the world, in a nation that has the second largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, and probably a whole lot more biological and chemical weapons than any of us know about, threatening a much smaller weaker country with a war that we would initiate for doing the same thing this country has done for the last 50+ years. Nobody sees this as a bit hypocritical? To parlay it back over to sports, that\'s like the Bucs wanting the league to sanction the Bengals for selecting the best defensive end in the draft.

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Sure Gator, I hear what you\'re saying, and I would agree that the American government\'s primary purpose, above all else, is to protect its citizens. I think saying that Irag must fall to secure this country\'s future is a bit over the top, but I generally agree with action against Iraq.

Still, America is Rome. No matter what happens it will fall one day. What\'s important is that other nations don\'t kick us when we\'re down when that day comes. Sure we\'re on top now, so it\'s easy to say that those who oppose American ideals and ways of life will either toe the line or pay the price. But is that the way you want things to go when China is the world\'s super power?

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I\'ll have to have to somewhat agree with Whodat on a few different but similar points.

On and on you hear about the Iraqis gassing the Kurds. How?
With U.S. helicpoters and chemicals provided by U.S. companies!
We are lead to believe that this madman is hellbent on destroying American, when he was our ally in the Iran-Iraq war. Granted, that was probably the \"lesser\" of two evils.

I think the current situation boils down to this: Saddam tried to off George Bush, Sr. on a trip to the gulf - now it\'s time for payback.

Iraq is considered by many to be the start of mankind - it may very well be the start of the end. Read your bible folks, it\'s all there.

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A short story.....
I have some bricks in my back yard shed.
This guy down the block around the corner has some bricks in his back yard shed.
He keeps calling me a jerk when he see\'s me.
This retoric continues until one day a brick is thrown thru a window in my car at night in my driveway.
I have a pretty damn good idea who did it.
I go to his house. Confront him. He says, with a huge smirk on his face, that he has no idea who did it. But I leave after my wife tells me we should go call the police and they\'ll handle it.
I call the police.
The police take my statement and tell me if it happens again to call them and they\'ll come back out. Do their best to help. And try to catch the person who did it....\"yes, even if it is that guy down the street that you say probably did it....but you have no proof.\"
This happens again with a brick a few nights later.
My neighbors daughter, whom I trust to babysit my children, tells me that she saw the man\'s kids doing it that night.
I go over and kick the snot out of the man and his kids and bulldoze his house.
My lesson....I should\'ve beat the piss out of him the first time his kids broke my window and I went to his house. I\'m just finishing what my wife stopped when I was there earlier to protect my family.

I do this and get away with it because:
a. I\'m big
b. I\'m mean when provoked
c. I have a lot of machinery
d. I\'m still young
e. I\'m very wealthy

Cast of characters:
Neighbor played by Iraq
Police played by U.N.
Wife played by Colin Powell
Bricks Played by Weapons of mass destruction
Bulldozer Played by U.S. weapons in the Middle East

and starring

Me played by The U.S.A.

Annnnnnnnnnnd the best reason to wipe out Saddam...he tried to kill a sitting president in 93\'. Clinton just didn\'t have the gonads to do it so Dubbya Jr. has to clean up over there.

Anyone who tries to snuff out a U.S. Pres has to go.

p.s. we should\'ve hung a left at Berlin years ago....

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How exactly did Iraq \"cast the first stone?\" (or brock in your story). They attacked Kuwait. That\'s like attacking some guy in a different neighborhood that you don\'t really know or care about. As a result, you go bulldoze your neighbor\'s house.

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What has Saddam done lately that make him a threat to U.S. citizens? He can hardly target the US, the missile with the llongest range goes about 1200 km.
Saddam houses terrorists? Nearly all commentators agree that this was the weakest point of Powell\'s speech. They are in an area not controlled by Saddam, it\'s only a few. And I think the US should nuke London first (hey, they arrested the most El Qaida members, did they not?), continue with Hamburg (where Atta and other pilots came from) and finish with Saudi-Arabia (from where El Qaeda is/was mostly funded). It is a well known fact that El Qaeda despises Saddam and even offered to send Mudjahedin to free Kuwait when he invaded it. They see him as a secular. It\'s probably the same the other way around. Saddam also had a little disgreement with religious leaders (that\'s why there is a no-fly zone in the South, not just the kurdish North).
A war is not suitable to destroy a weapons program if there is one. We can basically be sure he\'s not trying to get the A-bomb (maybe if he would he would be left alone, see N. Korea) and the B- and C-programs were pretty much gutted by the weapons inspectors. Even if they try and hide something from the inspectors that means they can\'t go on producing any ****. I don\'t know exactly what the ratio was but the weapons inspectors destroyed more weapons and laboratories than the war, at least 10 times more.
I have a problem with historical references a la WWII. Saddam is no Hitler. He is a threat (I think he isn\'t cause he has too many internal problems) only to the direct neighbours.
Reasons I see for a war and if I buy them:
Protecting US citizens: No.
Oil: No. The preparations for war with a high oil price are hurting the US economy. The US won\'t need Iraqi oil for the next 70 years and it\'s likely Saddam will be dead by then.
Bringing Democracy to the country: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha (and so on).
Personal revenge: Yes.
Justifying the insane budget deficit: Maybe.
Trying to get people\'s mind off the state of the economy: Maybe.
Trying to get people\'s mind off the tax cuts for the richest 5% of the country: Maybe.

Reverting to an old bad joke: The ash-tray of your car is full. The American government says: OK, let\'s buy a new car. A solution to the problem. A very expensive one. An insane one. But a solution. The French and Germans say: \"Mhm, why not just empty the ash-tray?\" Rumsfeld says: \"Hey, that\'s what Cuba or Libya would do! But not us. We\'re getting a new car!\" Germans say: \"OK, we know we can\'t stop you, but that doesn\'t mean that we pay for the tires. If you wanna be stupid, go ahead. We came up with a better solution, you don\'t want it - fine.\" (Bush drives the car into a lake)

Sad part is: Tens of thousands of Iraqis will die. I personally don\'t believe that an American life is valued any higher than an Arabs.

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I almost didn\'t join this thread, but I just can\'t help but say a few things. We can all remember when Saddam invaded Kuwait. How many of us remember the terrible, terrible things his army did to those people? No one else in the world had the balls to step in, so we did. Did we do it for oil? Among other things, sure, you betcha we did. We also did it because we\'re not so blind that we didn\'t see Saddam attempting to take Saudi Arabia next. When this man took over in Iraq many decades ago he had people killed for thinking differently than he did. He is a brutal, evil man who has been thumbing his nose at the UN since Desert Storm. His army has been shooting missles at our planes almost daily since Desert Storm. Britan\'s too.

Is Iraq, as a nation, really a threat to the United States or the rest of the world? Depends on how you look at it. They have no military really, at least none that could challenge the US, but chemical weapons and fear go a long way. The biggest threat Saddam poses to not only the US but to the rest of the world is the environmental and economic hazards he has at his disposal. Had Saddam been successul in Kuwait and moved into Saudi-Arabi he would have held 20% of the globe\'s oil. He could have destroyed many Nation\'s economies and believe me he would have. Don\'t think for one second that wasn\'t his plan.

I saw an interview with a history professor in Iraq where she stated the \"US got what it deserved on September 11th\". This is a statement of blind, uneducated hatred fueled by the lies and misrepresentations of the Leader of the country in which she lives, and she\'s teaching it to children. She will NEVER be provided with the truth because Saddam won\'t allow it. Those people are raised to hate the United States (the Great Satan). Most of those kids screaming in the streets and burning flags have no real concept of what the United States really is or what we really represent.

As for Americans not tolerating certain things from our Military, well, I wish that wasn\'t true but I believe it is. It\'s unfortunate. It was gorilla warfare that won us our freedom but we\'ve forgotten that it seems. Lately it seems we\'re all so interested in being politically correct. For me, Sept 11th was the last freakin straw when it comes to all these radical Muslems terrorizing the globe. For me that was the event that caused me to lose a certain level of humanity when it comes to all the senseless brutalism thats been going on in the middle east long enough.

The Japaneese commander in charge of the Raid on Pearl Harbor new what he had done. He woke a sleeping Giant. The people of my Grandpa\'s generation went for blood, and they got it. They set a chip squarely on their shoulder and went into WWII with a single, united purpose. We are a nation of good, but deep down we know how to be bad when bad is what is required. Truman didn\'t wanna drop the bombs, but he had to and he knew it. Our boys or theirs is what it came down to. It\'s been a while, but we\'ll find that again. Let Saddam use chemicals on our boys, and see how fast the American people forget to be nice. We\'ve been too nice for too long anyway.

Hey Gator, do you remember when we bombed Libya back in the 80\'s? Well, the French wouldn\'t let us use their air space to get there , so we \"accidentally\" bombed their embasy when we got there. Oooooops...gotta love Reagan for that one eh? :D

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My take on all this is. Who do you trust? Do we trust our leaders? Do we trust the U.N.? Or do we trust Saddam? Some one said Saddam poses no threat to the United States. What scares the hell out of me is, if he has access to weapons of mass destruction. Who will he sell them to? Maybe not Al Qaida, but maybe so. Then there are other terrorist organizations out there who would love to strike a blow on us or our allies. We have to get this guy out of power. You cannot trust him to do anythjing he says except that he will use what he has to stay in power. He proved that when he used nerve gas on his own people. He also used it against Iran in their war with him. This man is a power monger and that\'s all that makes him tick.

When the U.N. passed it\'s resolution after the Gulf war, they said disarm now or suffer the consequinces. It\'s time that he puts up or shuts up. It\'s also time for all nations that love their freedom to take action against this fanatic. If not, well look for him to use these weapons again against us or someone we are allied with.

[Edited on 7/2/2003 by JOESAM2002]

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I couldn\'t agree more with you Saintfan. That was by far the best discussion I\'ve seen on this topic.

As for nocloning\'s dislike for the WWII comparison, I understand where you\'re coming from, but looks again man. Hitler started out as little more than a threat to his neighbors. Is the Iraqi army going to start a blitzkrieg that swarms over all of the middle east and parts of Africa, Asia, and Europe. Not a chance.

However, Saintfan is exactly right in assessing the Iraqi threat. During Desert Storm they produced enough of a certain type of biological weapon to kill every person in the world 6 times. You know where that stuff is now? No, and neither does anyone else. It\'s in a cave somewhere just waiting for the wrong person to find it. That is the Iraqi threat.

Also, like Hitler, Saddam has ignored military sanctions placed on his country after their loss in the least war and is continuing to amass weapons, grow his standing army, and use it.

Can weapons inspectors shut down nuclear facilities, for all intensive purposes? Yes, but some chemical and biological weapons can be made in the bathroom of an average US house. The Iraqis use trucks to haul around these mobile facilities, making weapons in small batches and then hiding the product. That\'s bad, and the inspectors can\'t stop that.

Look, let\'s be realistic. Does Bush need a war to survive as President? Yes, absolutely. The last thing that George Bush wants is peace. If there is no one else to point a finger at then America focuses on America, and Bush\'s domestic policies are terrible.

Are there 20 other dictators in the world who are as bad as Saddam? Sure. Most of the middle east and africa is made up of countries that were \"magically\" created by the British after WWII. Their people have little or no social or political ties to the other people in their political boundaries. These people have been fighting for three or four thousand years, we\'re stupid to think we can stop that.

However, when a man who is as \"evil\", for lack of a better term, as Saddam builds weapons with such terrible potential, in a place as chaotic and unlawful as Iraq, you have to be seriously concerned. Nothing else is important to me. The fact that we can overthrow a dictator who has been oppressing his people for years is a bonus. Will Iraq install a democracy? No. Another group will take control and oppress the people who oppressed them for the last 50 years. And in 15 years we\'ll have to worry about that group for one reason or another. Bottom line to me: its all about the weapons.

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I personally feel that allowing American oilfirms to drill more oil in Alaska will be more of an environmental desaster than Saddam laying the flame to the oil fields. What other environmental hazard is there? Economically ... Iraq can\'t invade another country, the world is not dependant on their oil supply. I don\'t see an economic hazard other than maybe a war that gets out of hand and lasts for more than 10 days.

Yay, and killing their dads and uncles is gonna show them! They\'ll LOVE the US. it\'s quite a popular opinion among experts that a war will not really help the image of the US in Arab States.
Right. Sure, if you\'re not for us, you\'re against us. Is it an excuse the girl was 3 years old? I don\'t think so! She had it coming. Shoot \'em all. Remember the story of the Iraqi army going into hospitals in Kuwait, getting babies out of their beds and letting them die on the cold floor? The media in the US probably doesn\'t cover this, but the story (tearfully delivered by a female eyewitness to the UN) was 100% fabricated.
Remember those stories about American soldiers mass-raping Vietnamese women and annihilating whole villages, including children and babies? They turn out to be 100% accurate.
That\'s war, you say. I agree. That\'s why I don\'t want a war.
How many dead Arabs would you tolerate for one saved American? 10? 1.000? 1.000.000?
Can\'t you just send Jack Bauer and off that idiot with the mustache?

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NoCloning, you arguement is flawed - here\'s why:

I work in homeland security. I have heard a lot of scary things about the vulnerability of this country and its citizens. For example, there are chemicals with which an entire city\'s water supply (i.e. the size of chicago) can be contaminated using only a few gallons of chemical. How do you stop that? How do you deal with an entire city not having water? Or, if you prefer, certain airborne biological weapons released in the subway of a city like New York could infect half of its citizens before anyone realized something was wrong.

So you\'re not talking about an American soldier gunning down innocent men and women in the streets to ensure that Americans can keep driving SUVs (which is what the people who don\'t understand the significance of these types of weapons always talk about when they say they oppose war). You\'re talking about eliminating a threat that consists of one person or a small group of people performing an attack that takes less organization than the 9/11 attacks required and being able to kill millions or even a billion people. How can I use such insane numbers?

Five terrorists get biological weapons engineered from the small pox virus one way or another from the Iraqi stockpile of such weapons. These five men then fly to the five largest international airports in the world, or ship the viral weapons to their buddies in the countries where these airports are via freighter (ports like New Orleans has may be the must vulnerable places of all). Their buddies can then walk into the airports with the weapons and release them. These are viruses. You can\'t see them. You can\'t smell them. People go on without knowing. Airports like O\'Hare pass literally millions of people a day. But those people go to hundreds of other airports. Eventually, pretty much every area of the world is infected. In America we\'re industrious. We might be able to pump out enough vaccine to only lose a few million people, though I doubt it. But in Russia, in China, in Africa, the Middle East. Those people will die by the millions a day, b/c they couldn\'t even come close to stopping the spread of infection.

Now, how may completely innocent Iraqis died durnig the first Gulf War? I don\'t know but I bet it was far fewer than you think. More importantly, if Iraq did have the standing army to invade and conquer most of Europe for example, would you then support action against them? B/c the threat that these types of weapons pose now is worse than anything any army could ever do using contemporary weapons, including nuclear bombs. More importantly, it only take one person to use these biological and chemical weapons, and unlike a nuclear bomb, you could put them in a suitcase in some instances, or fill a couple of milk jugs, and easily and conspicuously transport them just about anywhere you wanted.

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\'Everybody wants the dirty work done. But nobody wants to get their hands dirty\' -- Jack Bauer -- first hour of 24 this year.

We\'re the one\'s willing to get our hands dirty...

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The thing that never ceases to amaze me is when countries like North Korea try to flex their muscles at the US. You\'re talking about the largest market economy in the world. You\'re talking about the strongest military in the world. You\'re talking about more money, food, good, and industry than some entire continents. Why, why would you ever try to \"bow up\" to the US? Did you know that one I believe its Essex class aircraft carrier (but don\'t quote me on that class) has a larger airforce than 60% of the countries in the world. One.

I\'ve never understood this, we don\'t back down tactic that these small countries use. I mean, there are only two ways to win. One, the US doesn\'t fully get involved (a la Vietnam) and so you can fend off the US attacks. Two, you actually get enough countries to form an alliance so that you have giant against giant. That\'s not very likely to happen.

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This is kinda FYI. Back in 1986 I was running a charter fishing boat out of Honolulu. I was about 8 miles offshore and looked to the south of me, I saw this hugh ship coming toward me. I could see the top of it\'s tower long before it got to me. It was the carrier Enterprise. I was told by some navy guys I knew that the Carrier alone had 5500 men on board. The whole battle group had something around 25,000 men in it. To say the least it\'s an impressive sight.

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I have a personal interest in this upcomig war with Iraq. I have a son in the military , he works and flies on C-17s and I do have a concern when he flies lands and takes off from places like Bosnia, Afghanistan and other hostile environments. My brother also has a son in the Military both he and his wife are activated and going who knows where. I can\'t help but be concerned and wish we wern\'t going to war. But the future price that we would have to pay because of lack of force would be great.
As the 1st Persian Gulf war unfolded on our TVs I went without sleep as I was glued to the news , not because I had any relatives involved back then, but that during those rocket attacks it brought back memories of another time when I was overseas and we would get rocket attacks, I remembered the fear of something falling out of the skies and blowing up the barracks, then on July 4 th, 1971 five minutes after midnight a rocket hit a barracks across the road and 8 GIs were killed with many injured. I say this to bring out that any kind of war has a cost in human lives but we must stand ready to eliminate threats that if gone unchecked will bring more fear and chaos to our way of life.
I feel like this war is unavoidable yet necessary, we need to pray for our President and leaders that God will grant them the wisdom and knowledge of how and what to do and say to prosecute this war and certainly keep our troops in our prayers and thoughts
I realize that we as a country have made our share of mistakes but, we must prevail in this endevor.

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Amen jm and thank you. I remember that one all to well also.

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Just another thought.....the U.N. pisses me off. We have no use for them. They\'re irrelavent and impotent...not to mention sitting on prime real estate.

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The UN may seem useless and unimportant now, but over time it is likely to become the most important organization in the world. Just as the original States in this country did not want to cede power to a union, so too do the nations of today look to guard their freedom and individuality. However, over time, the value of a unified confederacy of nations will become apparent. Eventually the UN will be to the nations of the world as the Federal government is to the American states. That\'s globalization baby.

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The U.N. IS useless and unimportant now. It failed in the Balkan crisis and now again in the Iraq crisis, and of course the U.N. will sink once again into irrelevance. I for one can\'t wait. The U.N. is impotent, useless, spineless, and will go the way of the League of Nations. That\'s reality baby.

http://toogoodreports.com/column/gen...e/20030210.htm

\"One obvious problem with the U.N. acting as a force for liberty is that a high percentage of its membership is comprised of autocracies and dictatorships. The votes of tyrannies and free societies are equally weighted. This occasionally produces some interesting results. Libya is slated to run the human rights commission, Iraq the disarmament commission. In neither case was an actual commitment to human rights or disarmament considered a real prerequisite for these positions; in the latter case, the position was assigned by alphabetical order. Last year, the U.S. was kicked off the human rights commission while Sudan became a member. This isn´t statesmanship; it is a sick joke.

Of course, the U.N.´s problems begin at a fundamentally deeper level. Its founding documents do not conceive of liberty as something that stems from negative rights, like the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Instead, Deweyesque talk of positive rights leads to calls for massive wealth redistribution and sovereignty surrenders on the part of major industrial democracies in the name of freedom.

When it comes to protecting our nation´s interests and values, all too often the U.N. is either impotent or on the other side. A better solution than relying on it would be to support Rep. Ron Paul´s (R-Tex.) periodic legislation requiring a U.S. withdrawal. Let the globalists try to convince the American people that membership has its privileges.\"

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I got news for you Billy - the League of Nations turned into the UN. THe league of nations is still around today, it\'s simply called the United Nations. The UN may change names, but it will always be here. Further, when the sins of a few begin to threaten the entire world, you will see the UN kick into action. It will probably take another fifty years, but it will happen.

For example, one big environment catastrophy could be the thing that forces the UN into action for real. For example, pollution affects the entire world. An ozone problem could cause global restrictions. You never know what it will be, but it will be something.

There are two major trends in the world working for the UN right now - democracy and globalization. There are, to my knowledge, more democracies in the world now then ever before. That number will continue to grow. More importantly, the world is \"shrinking.\" In other worlds, technology makes all places more accessible. The largest companies in every major market economy are buying or merging with the largest companies in other major markets. See car manufacturers for more information. What are there now, ten car companies of any significance in the world.

Further, smaller more regional groups are working. The EU for example. Central and South America, Asia, even the Middle East have all formed \"governing\" organizations similar to the UN. It\'s just a matter of time before people\'s focus is truly global. Then the UN will become very powerful. Just wait...

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I thought some of you might be interested in this article by Andy Rooney on the CBS web site:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...tml?cmp=EM8706

I don\'t always agree with Rooney and might not go so far to say he\'s 100% right on this point, but it is a very interesting article about the French and their right to have an opinion on world politics.

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Here\'s my take-
The one thing that truely chapped my ass in \'91 is that we didn\'t finish the job. We did not remove this seriously dangerous and threatening regime from power, did not destroy all weopons. If/when we go to war with Iraq again, i surely hope we won\'t have to go in again twelve years later. If something is worth doing, its worth doing right once and for all. The United States of America does not negotiate with terrorists or those with economic or other ties with them. You don\'t talk to trash; you take it out.

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OK Here we are again!!! Was anyone there the last time we took Saddam on!!!!!! I found myself sitting in the middle of the Persian Gulf for the first time. Since then I have been back SIX times. Did we finish it this time!! You bet your ass we did. For all of thoese people who have issues with the Service Members fighting the War of IRAUI FREEDOM We could be your neighbors so watch what you say.