Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

The Saints draft well and have good offensive coaching and have pretty good locker room chemistry, but have not been able to get over the hump and win a championship in the last 10 years. Though the Patriots had an off year with no good QB and no receivers, they did win 5 more championships than the Saints with the same basic setup, two decades of a HOF GOAT level QB, and I think we could learn things from some of what they did, while also potentially doing better at them recently on drafting and having the edge there.

Here are some new principles I think we should consider:

1. Do not pay big and trade up in the draft unless you are acquiring a potential franchise QB. Especially do not trade high picks in future drafts to move up in a present draft unless for a QB, as the discounted value of a future pick in trade is 30-40% less than a current pick, essentially you pay 30-40% interest for one year, like the payday loan store. Do not trade next years 1st rounder to move up in the first round this year. Do not trade next years 2nd rounder to move up from the 3rd to the 2nd round this year. Yes, you may get lucky and get Alvin Kamara but often you won't, and if there is an Alvin Kamara gem in this years 3rd round, there is likely an even better gem in the next years 2nd round. Draft picks are capital. You don't win by paying high interest rates and depleting your capital. You need to amass capital by taking advantage of other teams that are desperate and will overpay by trading back. We traded two first round picks for Mark Ingram, and he was average and fumbled in key situations and we found a better option in the 3rd round and even with Murray as a cheap free agent. We traded two first round picks for Marcus Davenport and he was never quite elite, plagued by injury, and didn't make the difference for us when it counted.

2. Stop acquiring 30-something veterans at high cost, especially with injury histories, unless they are a potential franchise QB like Brees or Manning. People like to say injuries are just bad luck but the reality is that you make your own luck. If you stock your team with semi-expensive 30-something veterans, especially ones with injury histories, you are stacking the deck to have more injuries than other teams. And then when those injuries happen, they force you to shuffle players around in the starting lineup at unfamiliar positions and roles, which hurts the performance of other players and leads to more injuries of other players. Injuries have a ripple effect. You want to stack the deck to have less injuries than other teams so your lineup is more stable and players are more comfortable in roles and responsibilities and perform better and have less injuries. Picking up an injured Brees and turning him into a HOF franchise QB was very lucky, but gamblers say beginners always have the luck, and experts say thats because getting lucky in the beginning is what hooks you into becoming a gambler. Brees was our gateway drug to Anzalone, Alexander, Armstead, Meredith, Robisonson, etc. Also, in general, the core of most dynasties is not 30-something veteran free agents who come at high price with high risk. To dominate you need to draft well and get young talent cheap not settle for paying full price and crossing your fingers on aging and injuries. Bringing in a role player on the cheap with high upside who has injury risk is fine, but we need to stop being the broken bone collectors of the league if we want to be elite. Often the best values in free agency are players who are still young and come cheap because they were a backup or just learning the ropes on poor team who never got the the chance to start and shine, and we get them coming into their prime. We used to bolster our secondary with these types like Jabari Greer and Keenan Lewis and it worked great. But lately we pursue retreads in their 30's and deal with constantly injuries.

3. Likewise, stop drafting highly injury prone players. Sure Anzalone had upside but his injury history was a red flag. Like free agents, you have to consider not just the risk of constant injuries with those red flags, but the impact those injuries will have across your lineup and in preventing you from ever having a stable lineup and filling that position with someone reliable.

4. It is great that we can identify gems from small schools, but we need to not get overconfident with it. Sometimes when a player comes from a small school, they don't have the track record of being able to clash with athletes their own size and stay healthy. They may have a non-traditional frame which gives them tons of reach and speed for their size, but this frame may not hold up well. I think we see some of this with Armstead and Davenport. If we can find a small school gem in the mid rounds like Armstead that is great. But when we get too excited and trade up two first round picks or we sign one to a big extension after seeing frequent injuries, we are perhaps taking too much risk. Especially at positions prone to injury like along the line, its fine to look for small school gems, but we need to be careful not to overpay and not to accumulate more injury risk.

5. New England has been careful over the years not to commit too much cash to positions other than QB, and to trade away players for new draft capital before they pass their prime. The decline of a player like Cameron Jordan was inevitable and the only surprise is that it happened by a gradual fade not a big injury. Jordan is still a good player but will decline further as all do. We need lots of young athletic healthy players and dedicating too much of the cap to aging stars is a mistake, while cashing some in for draft picks is great. Cashing in Graham paid off. Cashing in Cooks paid off. Thats what pays and we need to get more comfortable following that mold and letting our good drafting ability be a cash cow. What we don't need to do is deplete our reserves by cashing in depth like Still and Sneed for pennies and then giving Michael Thomas $19 million a year so he can be double covered and get injured and then we have nobody.

6. Do not pay too much money to a WR. The vast majority of elite #1 best in the league WR's never win a ring since Jerry Rice. The list includes Moss, Owens, C Johnson, A Johnson, Fitzgerald, Jones, OBJ, etc. Thomas probably won't win a ring. Paying him $19 million to help us not win a ring is not smart. Trading him would be. We paid him and we saw what that got us.

7. Do not pay too much to a RB. Again paying a ton of money to a RB is not a formula to win a championship. Its a formula to sell jerseys. The running game is mostly about blocking anyway. This is not fantasy football. Kamara is amazing but again we saw the difference he made, and it didn't get us the win. Minnesota had Adrian Peterson for a decade and it got them nothing, even with Favre. Its better to spend the money on the oline, defense, and depth. If Adrian Foster and Andre Johnson had racked up 6 rings, our cap allocation strategy would make sense. They didn't. It doesn't.

8. Don't tank. New England never tanked in 20 years. The damage it does to your culture is not worth moving up in the draft. With the possible exception of benching starters or injured people in week 17, you play to win every game. The top few draft picks are often big egos anyway, and you don't need anyone but the QB to be a big ego, and you can find a good QB without one of those picks, or get a top pick from another team by acquiring future 1st rounders.

9. This is new, but I am skeptical about investing a ton in the QB position unless you are sure you have a very elite QB. Its worth paying a Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Wilson, etc in their prime. But if you have a Dalton, Palmer, Ryan, Prescott, Stafford, Cousins, Goff, etc who has one big year or racks up regular season stats, writing that check for $150 million is often a 10 year trap for your franchise. If you are not sure you have a top 5 guy for the long term not just 1 year, and if you are not sure you have a player who rises to the occasion in the playoffs, there is a lot of parity in this league at QB from 6-20 and the order shuffles every year and a lot of it is coaching and oline and weapons. A team can build more depth across the roster if the cost of QB is minimized. I think we should keep our cost at QB low if we cannot find a great one, as if we find a Prescott or Cousins or Goff type, we should be comfortable to cash them in for picks when they ask for $150 million.

10. Look for every legal advantage. Teams with white jerseys get less penalties. Wear white jerseys a lot. Yellow cloths and glove can look like a flag and be distracting, use them. Start manipulating the compensatory pick formula more like New England does, not ignoring it where the year our cap limits become insurmountable is the only time we lose enough players to get a pick.

11. Continue avoiding big egos and trouble makers. Even New England could learn something on this. New England didn't get any of their rings with Moss or Gordon or Brown and if anything those gambles correspond to the downturns in their dynasty winning rings. The Cowboys bring in every trouble maker for headlines and just lose. Its very tempting to get some potential pro bowler with a big ego and legal troubles for pennies, but its not worth it, the distraction makes your other 51 players all worse. Whats worse is if these gambles appear to 'work' which usually means fantasy league championships not real rings, you end up signing the guy to a giant contract the next year, and you lost the discount, but keep the baggage. If Von Miller robbed a liquor store, lets hope the Falcons sign him for league minimum and then extend him for a record deal the next year, not us.

Winning can be a simple formula. Good coaching. Good drafting. Acquiring more draft capital. Staying healthy. Avoiding distractions. Having solid young depth ready to step up. Getting a good value from QB spending dollars. We do some of that well. If we do all of it well, rings will come. It will just involve some tough choices. What we do well is great for getting us 12-4 type seasons but our age and injuries catch up with us in the playoffs. If we go in loaded, we can dominate in the playoffs. Thats what we need to do.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Another one, and this is kind of a side note, but never draft a TE in Round 1 or sign one to a big free agent contract. The performance, durability, fit in system, etc are incredibly unpredictable. Most of the best TE in the league were chosen in late rounds. Most first round TE are busts. Most expensive free agent TE don't fit new system or get hurt. The best approach to the TE position is to throw mid-round picks at it or acquire healthy veterans cheap who didn't happen to fit another teams system well. Any team that spends a 1st round pick on a TE is passing on the chance to find an all pro at a position that can be more predictable and important. If you find a Kelce its pure luck, and Kittle 2019 one year is Kittle 2020 the next.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

We have Trautman and he will be fine.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

I said most of last summer to not sign Kamara
Love the guy as a player but there is just no reason to pay a RB that sort of money, especially of they are not a 300 carry,franchise carrying RB. Even more so when you are paying a franchise QB and WR money.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Nah Lee, I can’t buy into that mindset. Kamara is a playmaker, he can be a difference maker each and every time he touches the ball. It’s true that every player signing is a cost benefit analysis. That being said, I don’t think his contract was egregious. The young man balls. And playmakers don’t grow on trees, quite a few of the attributes that those types of players have can’t be easily taught or learned via muscle memory. You’re either a playmaker..., or you’re not.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Yep, Kamara is special and didn't break the bank.

Paying guys like Peat for the level of production is where this egregious salary cap number comes from.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

We overpaid just like we overpaid Thomas but at least Kamara is earning most of it. I’m more of a build your OL draft a Rb type of guy but it is what it is. Peats contract is still mind boggling

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

He is most effective in space, which he had none of due to the short passing game. Screen passes didn’t work because there was not real threat to go down field.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Peat is mind boggling. Great run blocker in space and on pulls but terrible at pass blocking, especially in slide protection or stunts.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Ryan Neilsen is about to become LSU's defensive coordinator.

Losing a few positional coaches now.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

You don’t pay players like Kamara and Thomas with the production they had then you can guarantee players won’t want to come in free agency or stay here past their rookie contracts. You have to take care of your guys. The huge knock on New Orleans was Benson didn’t want to pay players. New England got away with that because they had the greatest QB/Coach combination of all time. People aren’t clamoring to go to NE now because NE has the reputation of not taking care of their own. You’re dealing with people with emotions and wherewithal, not robots. How do you not pay Michael Thomas after the production he gave us? That would be outright disrespect and a message to everybody in the NFL, if you ain’t Drew Brees then **** you.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

It's been on my mind.

Would you rather:
A) Finish last in the standings, but be able to see your star hall-of-fame player have a legendary final game in the regular season to cap his career? (Kobe)
B) Win 75% of your games and the division and make it to the second round of the playoffs, but lose in a game where your star hall-of-famer ended his career with a bad game with multiple critical mistakes? (Drew)

The Saints weren't wrong to do what they did, push all the chips to middle of the table to try get the team over the top and get a ring while Drew could still play. If Kobe were still alive he might tell you he'd trade in his epic final game for the chance to end his career with a #2 seed playoff team. We may have a tough road ahead now but at least we gave ourselves and Drew a shot. That's all you can ask. On the whole, I trust the Saints front office to make pretty good decisions.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Well Bako, I agree with some of what you are saying, and I appreciate the effort it took, but its sort of Obvious, easier said than done.

It’s like you are saying..don’t pay for or draft position x unless he’s worth it. I’d prefer to draft position y, but only if cost for y is allowable if he’s healthy.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

New England has been letting star players walk or trading them since before Brady and Belicheck had so many rings, when they were just a team that got lucky and won a couple. The Steelers have let many stars walk. The 49ers let Montana walk when they had Steve Young. I don't think its super insulting to trade a player because you have a budget. If some company hired me, trained me up to be worth 20 million a year with their great system when i just started out trying to make the team, and then said we want to train someone new to stay on budget so pick your new city to earn 20 million from a new employer, I would not complain. If an owner wont pay to have a winning team, that is one thing, and free agents may not want to lose. But if an owner makes smart decisions to win, free agents should like that. We don't need the big name free agents anyway, we need to build through the draft and get the under appreciated free agents who are hungry to win.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

To summarize some points its more like this. Don't run up the credit card and take out a second mortgage from your future draft stock. Buy stock in the bank and make money from other people doing what you don't. When you buy a car, look up consumer reports and don't buy a range rover or 'jag-uare' that is gonna break down. Especially don't pay big money for a used high mileage range rover or jaguar. When you can afford it, buy a house, not a boat. If you buy a boat first, buy the kind you row, and make sure it doesn't have any holes in the bottom. With Kamara and Thomas, we ran up the credit cards and took out a second mortgage to buy two boats.

But I do get that we cannot entirely avoid injuries and mistakes. No team can. Oline, Dline, and Linebackers are big guys and prone to busted knees and we will lose players there, just maybe avoid acquiring ones who are old and/or have extensive injury histories and come at high cost so we dont lose as many. Secondary can be injury prone too, so again maybe avoid big injury history there, its a hard position to play in ones 30's. And everything is situational but generally investing more capital in defense, oline, and qb pays off. Nobody would say to draft a punter in the 1st round and then extend him at a record contract for his position. Well, I say dont do that with TE either, and dont spend a ton on rb or superstar WR.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

But this ain’t credit cards and banks. It’s the same conversation I have with my Dad, it’s easier to make good credit/investment decisions than it is draft decisions. How did Brady/Wilson/Rogers slip as far as they did if you can predict it. How did KC trading up for Mahomes. There are 32 teams trying to do what you say. Again, lots of what you say makes sense, but it’s not applicable with competing with 31 other teams to be the best.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

They didn’t win their first Super Bowl until Brady got there. Their sustained success was directly correlated with that combination, because as we saw this year, Cam couldn’t work with less like Brady could. The Steelers had stability at Quarterback and TRULY dominate defenses. The 49ers let Montana walk at the end of his career with Steve Young in waiting. They didn’t move on from Montana and Rice and leave Steve Young with nothing to work with.

There’s other ways to stay under budget. As far as the draft, that’s a crap shoot. You hit some, you lose on most.

Most importantly, if I take a job in New Orleans and settle down and start trying to raise a family there because you gave me a long term deal then you say you wanna trade me I’m not going to have good **** to say. Especially when my production was down because of injury. It’s not a good look.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

In Thomas case he may want out so it could be mutual. It would be dumb to get rid of him otherwise.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

He just played through serious injury trying to get Brees a Super Bowl before he retires. I think maybe we should stop speculating on what these guys want. Mike doesn’t seem shy about saying what he wants.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Kamara 2.0

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Mike Thomas was hurt he tried . He’s going to have surgery he will be back with a different QB a whole new offense is about to be born. Brees was limited is a miracle he came back to play after those ribs. He felt every throw. We were handcuffed to let Drew finish it win or lose. I was so down like anyone else on here but let’s move on, now unless the nfl let’s Drew take some roids he’s cooked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Michael Thomas being hurt is a great excuse for Michael Thomas not showing up in this game. But it does not change the fact that generally dedicating franchise player level money to a WR is not a formula for championship success in this league. I also have a concern that having a dominant #1 WR stunts the development of a young QB as instead of learning to go through their progressions they take the easy route of letting their star WR carry them and can look like a pretty good top 10 QB and get their big contract and settle in but never reach the next level. I think its better for a young QB to have an ensemble cast of skilled receivers with different tools but no dominant beast #1.

I would not write off the entire New England system for 20 years because it didn't work with a new QB who was too old and got covid in a year with an abridged training camp. The Patriots went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. We have seen what teams like the Lions, Falcons, Texans, etc do with much more able QBs than 2020 Cam Newton or Matt Cassell. The Saints do need to find a better QB than 2020 Newton or Cassell, but even with just an above average QB you can win championships with the right system and avoiding the mistakes many teams make.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

. Wrong thread

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

You are going against the grain with that opinion of having a dominant receiver being less desirable for the development of a young QB than a bunch of ok guys.

Most "experts" state that a star receiver will help with the development of a young QB, because they can build their confidence through that connection. Losing your confidence is probably one of the biggest reasons why some young QBs never make it and become "busts."

Personally, I feel a lot more confident in bringing in a young QB into the system being a success with Kamara and Thomas than bringing him into a one without them.

Naturally, a good O-line is the biggest friend of a QB - young or old.


And when it comes to New England - one has to take into consideration that the other teams in that division have been dumpster fires until very recently, and that NE has been very sound defensively in most years during this run of theirs. All of these things take pressure of the offense too, since they probably have been able to play with the lead more often than not.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Every young QB needs a good O-line to protect him along with a good ground game and a WR to become his go to guy. We've got that. Oh, and we have a decent defense to help him out.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

I think that if having an absolutely dominant #1 receiver rather than an ensemble cast was a great way to develop a young QB we would be looking at football in this millenium and saying the great QBs were Matt Stafford with having Calvin Johnson, Matt Ryan with having Julio Jones, David Carr having Andre Johnson, Matt Leinart having Larry Fitzgerald and Anquon Boldin, Daunte Culpepper having Randy Moss, Baker Mayfield and Kyler Murray getting elite #1 wide receivers their second year, etc. Instead we have great QBs like Brady coming up with no super elite receivers, Manning developing alongside Harrison not with Harrison as a star or super high draft pick in place, Brees developing alongside Colston in New Orleans, Roetlisberger developing alongside a changing cast of recievers who only became elite with his help, Wilson lacking star receivers until recently, Rodgers developing with some good receivers but not an absolute beast early in his career. To be great, a QB has to learn to go through their progressions, throw into a tight window, etc and get over their college days which are often coming from a big program playing most games against weaker opponents with their star receiver wide open. If a QB has a receiver early in their NFL career who is always open or catches everything and they can just throw it up for grabs to their first read every other down, they may rack up stats that look encouraging and help their GM justify the cost of acquiring both the QB and receiver, but they often fail to develop over time into true champions. That is my opinion. Maholmes may be the exception but Hill is the ultimate deep threat and Maholmes has the big arm and KC has always had a wide cast of other weapons opening up the field.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Kamara had 83 receptions and 756 yards receiving in 2021 (Both stats are team leading)

Define Runningback.

Also why do WR get paid more than RB? Touch down potential? Guess who lead the whole league in TDs.. Kamara

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

There are a lot of things to nitpick in that wall of text, but I'll just counter with what happened this year with the development of Josh Allen after he got a legit #1 receiver in Diggs.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

+1

AK is a top 10 offensive player in the league, probably top 5. He is bot just a RB. Simply look at his body of work with teams knowing he is the main target this season. He is a player that never has to come off the field unlike Henry who is not a 3rd down back. If you think he can’t be a 1000 yard rusher, you are sadly mistaken.

Why would you limit a player of his caliber to simply running the ball? You see Tyreek Hill and Mecole Hardman running with the ball a lot as well since they are simply dangerous with the ball in their hands.

I think the AK deal was great. We basically got a good WR and a good RB as a 2 for 1 deal. Look at the attention he received on that trick play to Smith.

Re: Keys to Building a Dynasty
 

Constructive criticism: I imagined Loomis reading this and trying to make heads or tales and design an effective strategy from it. This isn't to discourage you from ideas it is more to help examine your ideas for feasibility. Being critical of our own ideas helps us ensure they can withstand some scrutiny.

At a very high level every point is a 'do not' or a 'stop'. That is a very good way to get the person you are trying to help, to shut down. Perhaps a more palatable delivery is "instead of x, why not try y"... This approach makes sure you are offering a Y and not just shooting things down.

Tanking... We do not improve by stopping something we do not do. When you 'say just to say' you create a potential point of debate that provides zero value.

You use the Patriots as an example but our regular season record has been right there with the Patriots 4 of the last 5 seasons. You want to blow up an entire program for 1 season 5 years ago?

A lot of your statements are based on the premise that it doesn't win a SB (Kamara as an example). Then you go on to say that trading Graham and Cook paid off but the Cook/Grahm trades did not pay off based on the criteria you set of winning a SB. Furthermore, practically everything you say that we should be doing is being done by a team in the league that doesn't have consecutive winning seasons or win a SB.

You say dont pay big unless you KNOW you have a top 5 QB. Top x is a highly debated topic every year, decade, etc.. You have set a requirement with no measurable. There is a market for QB and the price is set by the market, not paying $25M for someone the caliber of Deshaun Watson is precisely how you stay with mediocre talent. Meanwhile Josh Allen falls into this year top 5 QB TD stats and you would pay him $25M.

You say that a Championship is more important than selling jerseys... While both generate revenue and everyone wants to win a championship, one has happened once in 54 years the other gets players paid, keeps the lights on, and employees family's fed. Never lose sight that the NFL is a business first, entertainment second, and sport third.

Avoid big egos and trouble makers... Have you ever managed any number of men at any level LOL... You can not avoid this, you learn to manage it or you ignore it and it eats your team/group from the inside out.

Your simple formula: It is more of a house of card to be brutally honest. That is not exactly a formula since nothing in it solves each issue. Also simplicity does not equate to execute-ability. You have a list of 7 subjects that all have to go perfectly in order to not crash another. Each one of those items is by itself a monumental task in a season.

This is the hard question... How do you intentionally stay healthy? Wouldn't all teams do it if it were achievable? A season is a war of attrition and injury is what blows up most of the other ideas in your list.

You put a lot of thought and typing into that, I figured I would give an equal effort in return. I know it wasn't as uplifting as "Cool!!" but thats just not how i am wired :).:bng: