Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

I think there's a few things we can all agree upon at this point of the season. First, the Saints do not have what can be classified as a standout receiving corps and does not currently have what could be called an elite pass catcher either as a WR or a TE. Secondly, the Saints do not have on the current active roster what could be deemed a franchise quality QB. Lastly, the Saints have struggled offensively, especially as of late, only showing signs of life late in games after the opposition enters "prevent" mode.

This brings me to the following question ... which of the following do you feel is more true ...

a) the receiving corps (WR's and TE's) are more likely to have an effect (positive or negative) on the success of the QB and the offense as a whole;

b) the QB is more likely to have an effect (positive or negative) on the success of the receiving corps and the offense as a whole;

c) or neither group has much of an effect on the other group's success.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

It's close but I voted B because the offensive scheme is often tailored to the QB - especially with CSP.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

That's a crazy question. I mean...if the QB can't get the ball to the WRs or make the correct reads, then they don't have the opportunity to catch it.

But if the WRs can't run routes well or don't catch it when it's thrown, then the QB success is nil as well.

And what if the QB is Tay Train? Hell he just runs over people. Or what if the WR is Tay Train, who's technically a QB? Then what?! Lmao!!

It's a catch 22!! There's no correct answer!

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

That's why it was worded as more likely to have an effect. It is obvious either can have an effect on the other.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

I went with the first option because in addition to running routes correctly and CATCHING THE DAMN BALL, the TEs and WRs also need to block when they are not targeted and on running plays.

It's true that a guy like Brees could make an average group of WRs look good and inspire them to play their best, but if they don't do their job, he doesn't have a chance to do his.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Conversely, a bad QB can make the best WR's look bad. It definitely works both ways. That's why I worded the question as more likely.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Here's a great article that somewhat addresses this topic concerning the Saints.

Jeff Duncan: A look at why the Saints offense has gone from juggernaut to jugger-not

From the article:

"Harris, at No. 20, is the only Saints player ranked in the Top 20 in Next Gen Stat’s separation statistical rankings, a metric, which uses geo-locator chips embedded into players’ shoulder pads to measure the distance in yards between the receiver and the nearest defender at the time of a catch or incompletion. Tight end Adam Trautman (No. 26) and Callaway No. 118 are the only other qualifying receivers on the roster."

"The receivers, though, are not the lone culprits here. In fact, Kamara and Trautman lead the Saints with five and four drops, respectively, according to Pro Football Reference (PFR). Smith, with two drops, is the only Saints receiver with more than one official drop, according to PFR and Stats, Inc.

There’s a difference though in a dropped pass and a contested drop. And this is where Thomas’ absence has most greatly impacted the offense. In 2018 and 2019, his last two full seasons, Thomas ranked among the Top 10 receivers in the league in contested catch rate, according to Pro Football Focus, despite ranking 80th in separation rate.

“It is just a matter of catching the ball, trying to help the quarterback out, trying to help out the offense,” said Stills, who had a pair of contested dropped passes against the Falcons two weeks ago. “And so we make those catches, we're not sitting here talking about guys getting open.”

Saints receivers, though, have struggled in this area. Trautman is the only Saints pass catcher to rank in the top 50 in contested catch rate, per Pro Football Focus."

"The ability to make contested catches is valued more than ever in the Saints offense now that Brees, the most accurate passer in NFL history, is gone. With Brees, the Saints led the league in catchable passes in each of his final four seasons, according to PFR’s passing accuracy analytics. Likewise, the Saints had the second fewest bad throws during the same span with Brees pulling the trigger.

With Brees gone, Saints passers have gone the other way. They have the highest percentage of bad throws, defined as poor throws excluding spikes and throwaways, and the second lowest percentage of catchable passes, per PFR."

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Drew made a living MAKING wide recievers look good.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

That he did.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

You have options for a, b, and neither but you are missing the option for both. I feel that both have major effects on the other. I dont think any offense can be successful with horrible receivers or with a horrible qb. I think our receivers are more horrible than our qb but thats just us. Want to see a great qb with horrible receivers, look at the 2019 patriots, very mediocre offense and made the qb look done. Brady goes to tampa and gets good receivers suddenly he is good again. But visa versa take Indy the year Manning got hurt and their horrible backup qb played. The receivers were fine but the offense was not good. Both effect eachother a lot, equally. If Brees was still here and a few years younger, we would look like the 2019 patriots offense. If we had Michael Thomas with Trevor Semian throwing to him, we would look like Trevor Semian with the Broncos who had some decent receivers I believe but was mediocre. If we brought back Tom Savage who is worse than Semian and Hill, but equal to our receivers, we would have the worst passing offense in modern nfl history.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Read carefully. Of course both have an impact on the other. The whole question is which is MORE LIKELY to have an impact (negative or positive) on the other.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Wow! You think the QB's aren't having an effect on the pass catchers? Check this out from Jeff Duncan. Only one team this year in the NFL has a lower catchable pass rate than the Saints!

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

So which one is correct then, because the other stat from twitter that was posted yesterday says Siemian has the 4th best catchable pass rate in the NFL.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Got me. Holder got his numbers from Sport Info Solutions and Duncan got his from SportsRadar. Holder's was for Siemian only, while Duncan's was for the entire 2021 season.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

I don't think Siemian has played that bad. In fact, I've been pleasantly surprised at some of his throws. You can't have a game where receivers drop eight passes and expect to have a lot of offensive success. My one criticism for him is holding the ball too long and taking sacks.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Drew made his above average receivers look good. Siemian has put the ball in his receivers hands but they aren't catching most of them. Could Drew do more with these receivers? Yes, but probably not that much better. I miss stickum'!!!

Option B is easily my choice.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Yes we are. We still are talking about dropped passes. We still are talking about penalties. We still are talking about fumbles. We still are talking about poor rout running and separation. Not to mention bad kicking and defensive letdowns. None of that has anything to do with a QBs preparation intensity.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

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Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

I did read carefully, but if you literally just want to know which is more likely, then ‘neither has a big effect’ should not be an option either, because even if both effects were small, one would still be less small, unless they are exactly equal. And if they can be exactly equal, the effects could be equal and small which that option seems to imply could be roughly the case, or equal and large which my proposed option would imply could be roughly the case. There is no reason to say the difference can only be negligible if both effects are small, two large effects can have negligible differences too.

What I would say is

Passing yardage = pass throwing ability x pass catching ability. Passing touchdowns = pass throwing ability into the endzone x pass catching ability in the endzone. Receivers and qbs are both judged strongly by yardage and touchdowns, and both require a thrower and catcher to perform for either to gain the stat. In this case the effects are exactly equal, a x b = c, you can’t say a or b affects c more, they both affect c a lot, but the same as eachother.

If we want to get down to meaningless technicalities, the qb may affect the receivers more than the receivers affect the qb because the receivers get 99.5% of their passes from the qb, all except trick plays. But the qb can throw to the running backs too, so the receivers and TE can only control the outcome of like 80% of his passes, but they do greatly affect the ability to spread out the defense for the other 20%, so perhaps the receivers affect the qb about 90% as much as the qb affects the receivers. But if we compare the ability of the qb to the ability of all eligible receivers including running backs, i think they affect eachother totally and equally, if one fails they both fail, and you need to study film to find the weak link because the result is the same either way, less passing offense. I dont think a great qb can make due with horrible receivers or great receivers can make due with a horrible qb, the best you can get combining great and horrible is mediocre overall results.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

I honestly didn't think anyone would say neither had an impact on the other. I included it for the heck of it. I never thought anyone would have an issue with it. Sorry.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Brees made a lot of average guys look good. The problem is the Saints have backup talent at all of the positions mentioned.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

For goodness sake ya'll. It's not rocket science. No one will catch a ball if no one throws it. Especially if they're crappy receivers. Notice that I did not say scrappy! :roll:

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Our next tight end? That size and athleticism! Kern got horse collared and it barely phased him! If he can block - and at this size, why couldn't he - hmmm.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

With the way the question is worded It’s hard to answer with one of the options. Teams have won and lost with great and subpar talent at all positions. Since most plays theoretically start with the QB getting the ball it seems logical to say he is the most important in the dynamic. Yet look back at Brees and his stats. Obviously he was a once in a lifetime talent when it comes to accuracy, but he was super accurate in percentage completion when he threw to Michael Thomas. much higher than he was to others receivers. This shows it’s a two-way street.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Geez. How much more simple can it be? There's no absolute answer. The question asks your opinion.

Which is MORE LIKELY to affect the success of the other in general. That's it. Easy peasy.

Come on, Boston. You can handle it. There's no wrong answer.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Since a QB handles the ball most every offensive play I’d say the QB is more impactful to a team.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

Of course QB's more impactful to the team, but more impactful to the success, good or bad, to the WR's, than the WR's are impactful to the success of the QB, good or bad? That is the crux of the question.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

It’s one guy throwing and up to 5 guys receiving on any play. Obviously the QB has to handle the snap and throw at least a catchable ball. So he is more likely to dictate success.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

I guess i would say the qb is more impactful to the success of the receievers/tes than than the receivers/tes are to the success if the qb because the qb can still add value by throwing to the running backs, running the ball himself, or taking advantage of blown coverage where the receiver could be no more talented than you or me and still score if not covered at all. Conversely the receivers are almost totally dependent on the qb and without catchable passes from him, they can only add value on reverses and blocking. So I think the qb is a little more important. But that does not mean even prime 2009 drew brees could throw for 3,500 yards with our current receivers. Even if qb is the more important position, that means more about making due with devery henderson or emmanuel sanders, not the historically bad group we have now that would hobble any qb. Drew Brees could not make our receivers look good any more than Demaryius Thomas could make Tebow look like a good QB by being an excellent receiver.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

That's obvious to me, as well.

Re: Saints WR's and TE's versus Saints QB's
 

I respectfully disagree. Brees could easily pass for 3500 yards with these WR's. They are not as bad as you somehow convey.