If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

Hear me out...

We gave Winston 3 games. He was hurt. He was ineffective. Now people say we should switch over to Dalton. He looked better. I don't disagree. It's worth a try I think and even if it probably won't work out much better we need a change.

But why does Dennis Allen deserve so much more patience than Winston? Allen wasn't hurt. He knows the system. He took over a winning team after years at Paytons side. And the result is very bad. And there is more reason to think the bad results are a pattern, Allen's career winning percentage as a head coach is much worse than Winstons as a starting QB. Winston looked better when Payton was coaching. Allen has never looked good as a head coach. Why is Allen not as accountable as Winston? Some say he can't help all the players making mistakes, but the whole point of a coach is to get the players to make less mistakes, and that has never been Allen's forte. He sees Ingram fumble and he sees another player outperform Ingram and he goes back to Ingram because something about Ingram reminds him of himself, something that starts with an s and ends with an ing.

So if Winston can be replaced by Dalton, who is the 'Dalton' to replace Dennis Allen. Enter Marvin Lewis. Seriously.

Marv Lewis is currently working as some kind of college assistant advisor. He is only about 64 years old. He is presumably available. His career winning percentage as a head coach is .518. Dennis Allen's currently stands at .225. Lewis was 0-7 in the playoffs but Dennis Allen will never make the playoffs, and sometimes the playoffs can just be bad luck, Lewis' best Bengals team lost their starting QB right before the playoffs and had to start AJ McCarron and came within 2 points of beating the Steelers. Marv Lewis is basically Jim Mora, and Jim Mora is an upgrade over Dennis Allen. Dennis Allen blames a toxic organization for his previous losing with the Raiders even though he is losing at the same pace with the Saints. Marv Lewis coached a similar toxis organization and won. He is not great. He probably won't win a Superbowl. But he is alright and available and not embarrassing. His last few years his teams were below his standards but still 6-10 at worst. Dennis Allen has never won more than 4 games in a season. When Marv Lewis left, the Bengals were 2-14 the first year without him, with a better head coach that Dennis Allen, so Lewis can elevate a team with serious deficiencies. He built the winning tradition in Cincinnati that made their later Super Bowl appearance with Joe Burrow possible, the main thing the next guy did was lose enough to get Joe Burrow.

Lewis is old enough that he won't want to stick around forever and could be a caretaker. We aren't going to be at the top of anyones list for top tier head coaching candidates, and we need to go through a rebuild to clean up our salary cap and have first round picks again. Lewis could take us through that rebuild starting in a few weeks while maintaining respectability and keeping us out of the cellar. He could prevent the embarrassment of giving Philadelphia the #1 overall draft pick and probably get us something like 5-8 down the stretch. If he surprises, maybe he could win, it would not be unheard of for a solid but unspectacular coach to do better in a second run. If he continues on Allen's trajectory and we do have the most losses in the league, we can move on to someone like Brian Flores next year, Lewis would probably not demand a multi year contract to take over.

Replacing Dennis Allen with Marv Lewis would send a strong message to the entire roster. Everyone is accountable no matter who you are. .250 is not good enough. Andrus Peat go run a few laps. Mark Ingram this sack of flour is your baby don't drop it. No Lattimore you can't take every other week off if you go through the motions and pretend like you are trying to cover the receivers.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

This post doesn't deserve serious discussion; not sure why you wasted time and space posting it!

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

Your guess is as good as mine. :D

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

That's too much Who Dey LOL

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

Unblocked Bako for a day … mistake. Hate runs deep.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

While I neither understand nor have I visited your particular region of the Twilight Zone, I do admire your ability to remain ungrounded and never venture out of it.:bng:

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

No

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

I'm glad we don't do that "mean girl" thumbs down thing here.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

Shane Steichen
Demeco Ryans
Kellen Moore
Byron Leftwich
Eric Bieniemy

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

Sex

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

He He He He!

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

We can't get those guys mid-season. We could probably get Marv Lewis at any time. His career winning percentage is .518. Allen's is .225. He is a known commodity as a coach with a predictable .500 level coaching record who would allow us to assess whether coaching or talent is the problem on our roster starting now, not next year. We have no idea how those young coordinators would transition to head coaching, the best of them probably wouldn't take a job from us if they had any other offer, and we can't ask until January. Marv Lewis is an option now.

If everyone can take Andy Dalton seriously but nobody can take Marv Lewis seriously I have to ask why? Would it have helped if Marv Lewis had been an interim coach for the Cowboys and Bears the last couple of years and was really bad? What is the difference? Is there something superficial about Dalton and Allen that some people just prefer over Winston and Lewis, where its fair to replace Winston after a few games with Dalton, but Allen deserves a full season minimum and the replacement can't be Lewis?

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

I just don't get the reaction:

Andy Dalton: The Red Baron, Redhead Redemption, A Real Life Viking, Awesome, Book Your Tickets For the Superbowl!!!!!!!!!!

Marvin Lewis: OMG NOOOO!!!, Why Even Mention His Name, Total Loser, Who Dey, Hopeless!

Why is it the twilight zone to suggest one as a replacement and totally reasonable to suggest the other? To me they are totally equivalent, most of their past track record is shared on the same sideline.

Also both Allen and Lewis had Carson Palmer as their QB. Guess who won more with Palmer? Lewis is a superior coach to Allen in every possible way who would probably be available at a moments notice. Its like trading the Terrelle Pryor / Matt McGloin of head coaches for the Carson Palmer / Andy Dalton of head coaches. Neither are Sean Payton / Drew Brees but its a safe immediate upgrade.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

So your solution to fixing the Saints 4 games into the season is fire Allen and bring in a 64 year old coach not connected or familiar with the system, players, or team who is a career +3 games over .500 over a 16 year career and who knows he is there as a lame duck?

I’ll repeat my answer. No.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

Yes. He is a viable option for an immediate in season upgrade over a coach who is a career 22 games under .500 over a 2.5 season head coaching career. Dennis Allen is proving what the numbers already said, he is Urban Meyer and Hue Jackson level. He is like if we brought in Terrelle Pryor or Matt McGloin as QB, his fellow Raider misfits. I dont understand how Marv Lewis is worse than Andy Dalton. 34 at QB is maybe worse than 64 as head coach especially for a QB who has been playing backup and losing for years. Dalton has a similar .500 type record. Dalton is likely a lake duck too but either one could stick around if they win enough. I would rather finish this year with a Jim Mora type head coach than with the least accomplished head coach in modern Saints history who can’t even be positively compared to Haslett or Ditka because they both had better results.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

I honestly can’t tell if you are serious. Well played.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

If the Saints were to fire DA before the season is over I hope that the front office would promote from within to maintain continuity rather than blow the whole thing up mid season. Sometimes just a fresh face in charge can turn things around, even if it's just a temporary Band Aid while you find out who is available after the season. There should be some young up and coaching coaches for the front office next year. No need to rush DA out the door.

But I do agree with the idea that change to the old ways might be appropriate now. What we have going now is stale and is simply regurgitating Sean Paytons' formula back again.

However, it's too early to make a decision on whether to cut bait with DA just yet. Do you demote DA back to DC? How would the defense react to that?

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

Rugs has a better shot at being named Miss Louisiana than the Saints making a head coaching move midseason. :crazy:

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

We can't demote DA to DC or we would have to demote two co-DC's or have 3 DCs. He would have to go. I am generally all for promoting from within but what unit on the team is performing well to deserve a promotion? I feel like we have been disappointing in every area. Doug Marrone has been a head coach but was not very good and his oline unit is stinking it up. The defense is better but the pass rush and coverage are both having an off year. I guess they could interview everyone and see who has fresh answers.

I worry that we will not be an attractive destination to young promising outside head coaches in the offseason because we have no solution at qb, no first round pick or big cap space to get one, one of the oldest teams in the league, the highest over the salary cap, a GM on borrowed time if he is retained, etc. We could only get candidates that have no other offers. However I said before and will say again Flores is a good option. No other team will take him because it would anger King Roger but he can't be more angry at us so it would actually make it harder for him to act out against us due to more eyes and media narrative on the situation. Same reason we should lure JC Tretter out of retirement if he or McCoy could play guard. F Roger.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

You obviously haven't seen me in a dress.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

I plan on keeping it that way. LOL!

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

I think Lewis still deserves to be a head coach. I don’t think New Orleans is the place for him, especially if he’s simply being used as an experiment. It’s pretty apparent the organization is going to finish this season out with Allen and rethink things next year.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

WalMart - 87'... You were looking for a Loverboy album, I was trying to decide between Dream Evil or The Last in Line.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

If you cant make the hard decisions don't try to manage. You'll fire a head coach after week 4 but not demote a DC (this screams that you don't stand behind your decisions)... The 30,000' view is that you replaced the HC with a .500 win HC, and jettisoned the one person attributed with the success of your defense for the last few years. This is called setting the next guy up to fail.

Absence of a QB is not going to deter potential coaches, a **** show of illogical moves will. Absence of players is a challenge for an incoming coach, presence of Jerry Jones management style is not.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

The flip side of the question is why would Lewis want to come in and babysit a team he has no ties with knowing he is a fill-in?

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

HC - Marvin Lewis
OC - Norv Turner
DC - Herm Edwards

https://media2.giphy.com/media/Zk9mW5OmXTz9e/200.gif

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

The discussion of demoting the co-DC's came up in the context of someone proposing to demote Allen back to DC, which would then displace the DC's. Regardless of anything else, I think musically demoting everyone to a lower chair would be the worst thing. If you don't want a coach anymore you fire them. You can't have leaders rejected and demoted and expect them to command respect. My 30,000ft view is that we mistakenly promoted a decent DC to head coach (our defense was successful in the regular season but not great in the playoffs) when he is horribly disasterous as a head coach. Keeping him as a head coach will lead to horrible implosion to gutter records, I would predict we finish 4-13 with Allen. Keeping him at DC might have been fine but now that he was promoted, demoting him back is untenable. So the best thing is to break ties. A more talented coach like Lewis could come in and likely win more games even with no familiarity with our team, which would also mean no biases and debts. He could rely on coordinators and then fix what he sees broken and motivate as he learns and adapts. Anyone we hire is set up to fail for awhile with our cap and draft pick situation but for someone wanting an opportunity it still is one to do better than expected during a rebuild.

If illogical moves deter future coaches we should not have given Andrus Peat and Taysom Hill their current contracts, traded our first round pick in the upcoming draft when we were going into a season with high uncertainty where it could be an early pick, and unloaded a young leader of our defense in CGJ for nothing. Those are illogical moves. If I was a coaching candidate I would be more worried about those illogical moves than worried that hiring me and not saddling me with the previous head coach as a defensive coordinator were illogical moves. Most head coaches may deserve more than 4-6 games to prove themselves, but a coach who comes in with an 8-28 record and already knows the system for years needs to hit the ground running, because 1-3 just proves the 8-28 wasn't a fluke and being on the staff years proves it ain't just an adjustment period. It's like if we made Blake Bortles the week 1 starter and only have him 4 games, based on his past record it makes sense not to give him a year. Except Blake Bortles went to an AFC championship and is infinitely more accomplished as a starting QB than Allen as a head coach.

Jerry Jones is a better GM than Mickey Loomis. Look at the Cowboys salary cap, draft picks, roster, recent draft results, and record. Until this year we were better than the Cowboys for a long time because we had a much better head coach and better long term QB. The last thing our GM did better was bringing on Payton and lucking out with the Dolphins rejecting Brees in 2006. Since then the GM who drafted Dak in the 4th, Gallup in the 3rd, Schultz in the 4th, Pollard in the 4th, and recently added Parsons and Diggs is a better GM. The problem with Jones is he hasn't been able to get along with good coaches. Loomis can get along with good coaches but he can get along with absolutely lousy coaches too.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

Its difficult to reply to you because the performance measurements that you go by are so heavily self rationalized and rarely logical. We have never had a better record than the Cowboys because of two people, you said that because it supports your emotions. Loomis doesn't draft, that's apples to oranges.

Best answer that I have seen to date on who does the drafting
If you're the Patriots, it’s the head coach.
If you're the Cowboys, it’s the owner.
If you're the Browns, it’s random homeless people.


What you have failed to consider because you are hell bent on lynching Loomis is that quite possibly Loomis is responsible for Payton and Brees, then Payton took over up until this year, and this year was Allen... Or maybe Loomis has never drafted.:bng:

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

If your the Saints, maybe its the local hospital that gets to bill the players health insurance that does the drafting? Or the local bail bondsman? Sure seems like it sometimes.

I am glad that Loomis made one right decision in 2006 and things carried over decently to 2009.

But I don't think its an 'illogical' performance measurement to ask that if a GM is spending more salary cap dollars than any other GM and has also leveraged valuable future draft assets to win now, that they win now. Ultimately if Loomis really is the GM and not a glad hander in a suit with no responsibilities, he ok'd trading our 2023 1st rounder as part of a package to trade up for a rookie wide receiver. He bet the farm that this was our year, our window, and the pick we were trading would be mid or late in the round. He bet and he seems to be losing that bet. When you lose that kind of bet you should pay. So he needs to go. For too long he has always resisted rebuilding and always made the short term decision at a long term cost, always borrowing at high interest in free agency and the draft by trading up, trading future picks, and restructuring contracts to guarantee more money to underperforming players in return for shifting cap debt to the future.

Some GMs can evaluate players. Some GMs can make shrewd deals to gain more long term salary cap flexibility or future draft picks to make the team asset rich not asset poor. Mickey Loomis can do none of these things. He only knows how to borrow more to pay existing debts, how to walk us deeper into a trap. Maybe he will trade our 2024 and 2025 1st rounders to get us back into the late 1st round in 2023. Make it happen Loomis say the lemmings. But probably whoever we draft with that pick will make some great young player we have 'expendable' because he didn't get someone on the staff coffee or whatever, and then probably we trade Werner or McCoy to the Eagles for a 5th rounder.

I don't want Loomis lynched. I just want him to move to some quaint town and open a B&B and stop dabbling in sports management. We need a GM who is good at evaluating players. Gayle Benson can't evaluate players. Dennis Allen can't evaluate players or plays or anything with any part of the word playoffs. The homeless of New Orleans could probably evaluate players better than any of the three, but not well enough to compete. And if we rely on assistants to lead evaluation, they will just be stolen away if they do well. We need a GM who can lead evaluation and who can also be a long term stabilizing force in our front office who exudes discipline and strategy and prevents us from blowing out our salary cap or mortgaging our draft future unless we are an absolute elite contender that is really a player away. Of course many coaches always want to max out all future salary cap now and trade up in the draft and forget the future, their job is often in jeopardy year to year so they don't want to save any spoils for their successor. The GM is supposed to be the counterbalance to that, the guy who says no and saves some cap space and draft picks for the next year. Maybe we were that elite contender in 2019 or so where it made sense to put everything on the table, but we clearly are not now. Loomis now is mortgaging our long term future to stretch for 'ok' and 'i guess you never know' seasons to save his job and keep cashing checks. We need to rebuild but he only knows how to be the king of debt to stretch every dollar for today and damn the future. We can't win until we move on and find a real GM and a real coach, and get more cap and draft assets to either find a franchise QB or stock up in the trenches to win without one.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

I knew this clip would come in handy as a response to bako in this thread…

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

I see Carolina fired their HC. I bet the Panthers steal Marv out from under us.

Re: If Andy Dalton, Why Not Marv Lewis, Seriously?
 

:roflmao::rofl: