3-4, 4-3
 

Payton and Gibbs say they'll probably stick with the 4-3 for now. Possibly because Payton isn't completely sold on the 3-4.... or a transition to a 3-4 would eat up a buncha defensive aquisitions, picks and signees that could be better used to fill other needs, to build it. That's not a big chunk they want to bite off at present.

I don't know that much about Gibbs and how commited he is to the 3-4. He may be the 3-4 guru for all I know and convince Payton it's the way to go.


I'd say the 3-4 is possible, but not likely.


Your thoughts?




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RE: 3-4, 4-3
 

Not even close to having the personnel to do this, I would think that would be a multi-year project to do the conversion. We do not have a true NT on this roster.

RE: 3-4, 4-3
 

im with BnB... we would need a Run stuffing DT to make the switch and we dont have anything closely resembling that....

RE: 3-4, 4-3
 

Agreed. No true NT on this ball club. You need a huge 300+-pounder ideally for the nose tackle, a guy who can hold his own in the middle of the line. Right now our best DT is Brian Young, and he's even undersized for a 4-3. So that just won't work. Also, in considering a 3-4, you're talking about putting more linebackers out on the field. That would be pretty sweet, because I love the linebacker position, but there's just one problem. WE DON'T EVEN HAVE ONE GOOD LINEBACKER!!!! much less four. Stick with the 4-3. The 3-4 would take several years to put together, and like Tally said, would be a waste of picks that could be used elsewhere.

RE: 3-4, 4-3
 

Find me a guy like Casey Hampton, then we can start talking 3-4 ;)

I like the 3-4. I think that with the right personnel...the 3-4 is the formation. Find some really really really big linemen and some quick and versatile LB's and we are all good. I think that this formation provides the best mix up of pass and run coverage as well as confusion in terms of blitzing.

Thanks for your responses.


Coupla questions...

So we're saying 3-4 is out of the question and that scheme isn't important enough to implement because we don't have the personnel on the roster and it's not worth wasting picks or trade, etc.?


Do defenses generally, Saints aside, convert to 3-4 (or to 4-3) because their talent (or lack of) dictates so.... or coaching staffs think it's the best scheme?



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I think its about the players. You need for very quick and agile LB's and 3 of the biggest, heaviest, and staunchiest linemen up front to execute a good 3-4.

Combination of both. Parcells didn't even attempt to try an implementation of the 3-4 for the first few years of his tenure, because he was slowly adding the right people to make it work. But I would imagine that it was something that had been on his mind since he arrived.
I'm not all that concerned about the linebackers as I am the nose. It's not just about getting a fat guy in the middle, he's gotta have quick feet, and be able to move quick, in order to take on multiple linemen. He damn well better have good leverage and great moves. These guys are not that easy to find. If La'roi was 30lbs bigger, he would be perfect. He played the nose alot last year, and for a guy his size, did pretty decent.

with our depth at DE we could put will smith as an olb.

I think the "right personnel" angle when referring to the 3-4 is misunderstood. Folks are quick to say that it's all about big, bulky linemen and quick agile LBs. Look at our team guys....we are already there. Our team is seriously up there when you talk about defensive players with athleticism. We have capable athletes to spare. That's never been our problem. When experts say it takes the right personnel they are speaking more in terms of a player's instincts and not size. You need LB's with significantly better play recogntion, since running the 3-4 leaves you considerably more vunerable to the run. I think it generally takes smarter and more instinctive players to make the 3-4 work, not necessarily more agile and faster players. I think a player like Courtney Watson would excel in the 3-4, whereas a blazer like Mark Fields probably wouldn't fare so well.

As far as the D-line goes we have the perfect group of guys. We have two talented DEs that need to be respected in pass rushing and run stopping. And if Sully is worth keeping like reports are saying, then that's the perfect 2-gapper that plugs the middle.

The key would be in nabbing up LBs that close in on the play quickly, not due to their athleticism, but because of their play recognition. Hawk, Greenway, or Hodge would be great pickups. Just look at the great 3-4 defenses. All of them have had smart LB's with great instincts.

Sully isn't the type of guy that takes up two or more linemen, he's more of a penetration guy, similar to Young.

I believe Sully was drafted because he was a tweener, and had good instinctive moves to get up field, we saw a little of that this year. It would be interesting to see a 3-4 look mixed in a little more with the 4-3 to give teams a little more to think about in game planning.

I suppose, but it's not about one player. I still really think the D-line could collectively fit the bill. We have uber-talented DEs in Will Smith and Charles Grant. In any given play one of those guys will command a double team due to the O-line having to compensate for the blitizing LB. The only question is if he could hold his own in run stopping up the middle. He wouldn't have to worry about consistently fighting through double teams because O-lines have to respect our two DEs and the blitzing LB, who could come from any number of directions. With the proper play calling and LBs, it could work.

Novel approach for the Saints. Let's do it.




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Don't get me wrong, I think Grant and Smith would be the perfect fit for a 3-4 package.

My problems are with the nosetackle position, for reasons I mentioned already, and secondly, the linebackers. While I think it would be harder to find the perfect guy for the nose position than it would to fill the needs that we have at linebacker, our crew is not very deep, especially if we lose Hodge and Allen this offseason. You have two guys in the middle that are unproven (yes, Watson has not proved that he can maintain the position) and Bockwoldt.....that's it. Slaughter and Melton will not be anything other than reserves. So we have a MINIMUM of 4 holes that would need to be filled at the linebacker position....and that's just if you want to field a 3-4, doesn't mean they'll be any good.
When you transition to the 3-4, you're taking away power from your ends, and giving it to the linebackers. So, we're going to put our best defensive players (Grant and Smith) in a position to NOT make plays? Not only would we need more linebackers, we would need some playmakers at linebacker in order to make an impact.
We have a few years. I would love to see a few packages this coming year, just to see how it would go. But until we start signing some folks, I just can't see it.

3-4 is far more versitle than a 4-3 I think. better for blitzing, better to hide coverages, pick up and smell out screens better...
The only problem with my theory is having the LB's who can come up run stop and drop back into coverages. hell you can even float a S into a LB position if you plan on blitzing and coverages more of a nickeal, oh wait steelers does that already.

Well yeah, then i guess we are in agreement. I never said that we have the total defensive crew to make the 3-4 work, just the D-line. If you read what i said you'll see that i pretty much said the same thing about the LBs. I don't think we have the right LBs right now for the 3-4. Sure they are athletic enough but don't enough positional knowledge and savvy to be effective in the 3-4.

Yeah, too bad we don't have THAT safety ;)

GT- I never thought we really disagreed, except on Sully. You can plug guys like him in at the NT, and he might have some success. But the teams that consistently and effectively run the 3-4 all have one thing in common, and that is a rock solid 1 tech NT(or 2-gapper, as you like to call it). In our current state, we'd be blitzing on the corners, and get killed up the middle.

We definately need more LB's also if we're gonna' play a 3-4. Watson couldn't tackle my sister if she promised to give him some. Bockwoldt, while gritty, just doesn't measure up to more than a back up. McKinnon, though slow, does seem to have a nose for the ball. Not to mention, he's not afraid to lay the wood to somebody. We may be able to fit him in somewhere. Geez, I miss the "Dome Patrol" days.

If you want to run a 3-4 here and get back to dome patrol again. the draft will be nothing but defensive this year. That is what dallas has done last year. If that is the case do all you can to get both OU OLB in this years draft and trade up to get a MLB from Iowa in the second. so it will probly require 2 first and a high second to achive this. Forget about any 3, 4 or 5 picks this year. Alot of creative trading would have to happen but our FO can not do it i think. Unless we go for the only true NT in the draft and pass on AJ. I have read enough here to see that will never happen if this forum was the saints FO.
Me i would love to see it happen and trade/cut alot of the dead wood we have. Have some balls and go for it if you are. There will not be a defensive draft like this for a long time to come again. Else just plug the holes we have and fix the OL.

Dude, it's your sister.....

am i the only one who thinks will smith would make a great olb in a 3-4. kind of a shawn merriman type.

This may be true, but I don't think he or Bockwoldt could tackle J-Lo if she strolled by in a thong!!!!!

:fanclub:

Damn there goes the rest of the LB core. Who can tackle then? If none of them skip the QB draft and and get some LBs. 3 to 4 of them

Im tellin you guys....we have Smith....and I dunno about you but I was impressed with Ronald McKinnon. Throughout every game in what was a looong and miserable season... RK was making solid hit after solid hit. The guy is a good tackler and a hard hitter. He would make a great ILB for the 3-4. Keep RK. Move Will Smith to OLB..and get a Normand hand of sorts and we will slowly get in the 3-4 business.

It's a great concept, but then we lose our stud DE.

Can McKinnon run the defense? I know he can hit, and is a decent tackler,, but I'm not sure he has the mental capacity.

BnB...Im not sure if he can "run" the defense but I do know that his number was everywhere on the field. I think he can do a great job of stuffing the middle in a 3-4 scheme. Draft Hawk...pick up a FA or 2 and defensively we could be in some serious business again.

Yeah, I could see him filling a roll similar to Vaughn Johnson. Johnson's strength was his run playing ability, and he was free from having to run the defense, with Mills right next to him.

Yeah, I could see that.