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I AM SORRY THAT I OFFENDED YOU JOE, BUT THEY\'RE NOWAY POSSIBLE THIS WAS A GOOD DRAFT. YOU SAY WALLY WILLIAMS IS OLD, WELL YOU CAN SAY THE SAME BOUT THE CB\'S. RASHEAN MATHIS WAS THERE ON THE BOARD AND I AM SURE HIS POINTS WAS HIGHER THAN \"STINCHCOMB.\"

WE NEED A GM WHO CAN PICK PLAYERS WHO CAN HELP THE TEAM ....NOW, NOT A GM WHO PICK PLAYERS SO THEY CAN USE FOR BARGAINNING CHIPS. I CAN UNDERSTAND PICKING ONE OL, BUT 2, WHEN THEY\'RE A BETTER NEED PLAYER(IMPACT PLAYER) ON THE BOARD I JUST CAN\'T SWALLOW.

I ASK EVERYONE, WHO WILL YOU PICK? STINCHCOMB OR MATHIS? HOLLAND OR JAMES? IF YOU PICKED A OL, WHY I NEVER HEARD YOU POST THE GUY IN HERE? I DOUBT IF ANYONE OF THEM \"OL\" EVEN START.

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Well Rod you did. The reason you didn\'t find my picks on this board is because I don\'t do the picking. I had somepeople that I would have liked to see picked but they didn\'t get picked. I just have to believe that the coaching staff knows more about this than I do.

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Given that I could have had a perfect world where everything fell the way I wanted it... (and in light of what I know now that I didn\'t know then)... you guys are gonna laugh, I know...

1) trade up for Robertson/Sullivan
2) slight trade up for Bailey
3) Cie Grant
4-7) depth (CB, OL, S)

This is all contingent on getting Fontenot resigned, of course.

Laugh it up, guys.

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I would have been happy with that too. I do hope Jerry re-signs with us but it\'s not a done deal yet. I\'ll believe it when the ink is on the paper. I guess it\'s a good thing i\'m not doing the draft for the Saints. LOL

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I WANT YOU SAINT\'S FAN TO KNOW I AM STILL EXCITED BOUT OUR TEAM CHANCES FOR THIS YEAR, BUT DISAPPOINTED CUZ I FELT WE COULD\'VE PICK PLAYERS IN THIS DRAFT TO START A DYNASTY THAT WOULD\'VE BEEN BETTER OR EQUAL TO THE 49ERS OR COWBOYS. HAVING TWO SUCCESFUL DRAFT I WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO A THIRD ONE.

I JUST HOPE THAT I AM TOTALLY WRONG WITH MY ASSESSMENT WITH THESE PICKS

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I\'m near-certain that Fontenot\'s not going to re-sign.

1) he\'s old
2) he was critical (and vocal) about the Turley trade
3) he gets a 14-year veteran\'s salary
4) good OL was signed in the draft

I could be wrong, but I believe the Saints have no intention of bringing him back.

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John Clayton said today that Fontenot was close to re-signing with the Saints. If he does, and I do hope he does. He\'d make on hell of a player coach to teach these kids the center position.

[Edited on 28/4/2003 by JOESAM2002]

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If he re-signs, then I see no reason for them to have skipped on Bradie James. I mean, I\'m sure Holland will be fine, but I see a stronger need for LB than I do for OL depth/project.

Haz and crew are putting a lot of faith in Allen/Ruff/Hodge. Allen is the only part of that equation I feel ok with.

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As a guy who studied finance in school - one thing always seems to pop into my mind when we\'re talking about this stuff... \"Past performance is not a predictor of future growth.\"

While that works in financial markets, it\'s far less true in the world of pro football. Although, the theory still holds true, every single coach, scout, GM, etc. rates players based, at least partially, on what they\'ve done on the field in the past... right?

If that\'s the case, let me tell you my opinion of Haslett and Co. They seem to be incredible at finding young/undiscovered offensive talent. However, every move they\'ve made on defense has flopped terribly (Hand, Jackson, Hodge was not very good last year, nor was Clemons, who was great the year before, after THEY moved him to MLB, Carter being able to stay out of trouble, Hawthorne as a starter at CB, Knight as a focal point on D, getting rid of Glover (pro bowler), Johnson (who was on his way until he got hurt)... etc. etc. etc.)

This is why I find it hard to be positive about the Saints\' defense improving much. If Ruff and Jones and Ambrose play up to the level that basically every defensive addition other than Grant and Howard have, we\'ll be pretty disappointed. Again, I think we\'ve made the right moves with guys like T-buc, Sullivan (although we overpaid)... etc. But, the bottom line is that if you look at Haslett and Co\'s past performance in terms of evaluating defensive talent, you see a pretty ugly picture. Wouldn\'t you agree JOE? Gator? It\'s hard to say that our defense has done anything but get worse year in and year out since 1999.

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As a former defensive player i\'d have to say yes you\'re right. I have been disappointed in the play of the defense. With the people you\'ve named you would think they would have been much better. As for losing so many players to free agency. You\'re only as good as your owner. Having spent 30 years in the car business the one person I would NEVER work for is Tom Benson. He is a true car dealer, all he cares about is money. Not his people nor his customers. Never has ,never will. To tell you a short story. When Benson was buying the team I had some friends that played for the Saints. They used to every now and then give good fans a game jersey or something from the team. I was told when Benson bought the team he inventoried everything right down to individual rolls of tape. I\'m not sure we can blame all the free agent loses to the coaching staff with what I know about Benson.
P.S. I guess what i\'m trying to say is when you have someone so much in control of the money it might be hard to keep people you might want to keep. It would be hard to tell the owner to go to hell I\'m keeping said palyer.

[Edited on 28/4/2003 by JOESAM2002]

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No, no, I agree with you. You can\'t place all of the blame on the coaches. Benson is a big part of the problem. I won\'t argue that. My point remains the same though. No matter whose head you put it on - this current \"administration\" seems to be stuck on offense. I truly hope things can get better on D and get better fast. I hope that they\'re right about Mitchell being able to take over for Knight. I hope that they\'re right about Ruff, Allen, Hodge, Sullivan, Ambrose, etc. etc. etc. I hope... but that doesn\'t mean that I ignore reality. That reality to me is that the Saints, whomever it may be calling the shots right now, aren\'t good at pooling talented defensive players. That\'s what we really need right now, and I fear it won\'t happen.

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Again I have to agree with you. I think we all do to some degree. One would think that with Haz being a former linebacker and a pretty good one at that, you\'d think our defense would be far better than it is. It just concerns me that Benson has so much control of who we keep and who we let go. I know it\'s his money but if he didn\'t want to spend the money in the first place why did he buy the team? These guys that play for the Saints are our represenatives to the world of football. Anything less than the best SHOULD be unacceptable to everyone including the owner.

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Ok Gator you got my attention. LOL. First I think I was one who said we were trying to keep the offense together too. We needed help on the offensive line due to loss of players like Turley(like him or not), Miller(retired) and possibly Fontenot(although I hear he will re-sign with us soon). We got the help through the draft. Like some have said in here they don\'t have a problem with the players drafted, just the value of those picks.

As for the collapse the last 2 years being the coaching staffs fault completely. I have to disagree. To me it\'s kinda like being married and getting a divorce( something I knopw a lot about, having been divorced 3 times- LOL) it\'s never one persons fault it takes two to screw things up. It goes to an old adage that I remember, you can lead a horse to water but you can\'t make him drink. I feel this way about the whole thing. It\'s everybody\'s fault. The coachs might be to lax, the players don\'t perform up to expectation. my jock strap is to tight. It could be a million things.
The thing that kills me is everyone talks about team chemistry. How the hell can you keep a team chemistry, when you can\'t or are not allowed to keep your players? This goes directly to the team owner. Believe me I know how car dealers work. If they can save a buck, they will to hell with the customer.
A good post none the less Gator. :D

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first off, how the hell can you blame haz? what he coached like a champ until we were 6-1 and then he decided he would just quit? no one was questioning his ability when we were 6-1, how about our players just ran out of heart and will, our second game against atlanta we looked like a NFL EUROPE team, wether we were ran out of heart out of shape whatever, you can\'t blame a coach that started the season 6-1, i fully believe the team chemistry problem, we have no leader, no one to get our team \'up\' for the \'easy\' games, no one to get on people late in the second half when heads are down when people are half assing it on the field, it sure isn\'t going to be AB, he gives his all but i wouldn\'t look to a guy who is smiling and giglling on the side line late second half when we are about to lose a close game, if you\'re going to blame someone start with the guys on the field they\'re the one\'s who quit on haz

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Gator my man. We can agree to disagree. I still respect your opinion. It just doesn\'t happen to be mine. Not to the point you have chosen. :)

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Gator - for the first time in a long time, we completely agree.

A couple of things you guys who think Gator is crazy have to ask yourselves... wait Gator is crazy.. let me rephrase... a few things that you guys who don\'t think Haslett is ultimately responsible have to ask yourselves....

IF the COACH is NOT responsible for WHO PLAYS and WHO SITS, the GAME PLAN, and the TEAM\'S EXECUTION DURING THE GAME AND SEASON, then who is?

I believe that coordinators are FAR more important to any team than the head coach. However, it is the head coach who picks his coordinators (so it all comes back to the coach). Look at it like any other company. When GM has bad earnings for a prolonged period who gets canned? The middle managers or the CEO?

It is the job of the CEO (aka Head Coach) to lead his team. CEOs do little more than provide a vision for a team, and a strategy to get there. It is the assistants, players, and everyone else that actually have to step up and enact that strategy. HOWEVER, if a team fails to buy into a coach\'s vision for his team. If they don\'t buy into his system, if they\'re not motivated, if the right talent just never seems to be put on the field at the right time, if a lightening bolt strikes the field at just the right instant as to cause a collapse again in \'03 - IT WILL BE HASLETT\'S FAULT. Gator, I agree completely with what you\'re saying, and I stand behind my comments of a few months ago. Haslett\'s a$$ is on the line this year. It\'s put up or shut up time. If this team doesn\'t make the playoffs, bye bye Haz.

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Ok guys, I\'ll try to explain myself a little better. The first reason I believe that Haz is the guy is because he did get this team to a 6-1 record before the wheels came off. Year before last same thing,a great first half of the season, then the toilet. I\'m sure most of you have played some type of team sport in your lives, you will all remember the 1 thing every coach in every sport tells every plater in every sport. \" You can\'t coach HEART.\" This is the thing that scares the hell out of me more than anything about this Saints team. You can go back in Saints history as far as you want and they have some very good teams. A bunch of different coachs, a bunch of different players but only 2 owners. John Mecom for those of you that don\'t remember him was a, for lack of a better word \"*****\". To me the one thing worse than that is a car dealer. I worked for many dealers in 30 years and they are all the same. These guys don\'t EVER give anyone complete control of their business. If you noticed, our boy Benson was in the war room this past weekend. Watching everything like a hawk. If Benson says you go, you go, if he says you stay you stay. Anyway, I think this team has a wall they hit about halfway into the year. They lose to teams they should walk over and beat teams you\'d think thay never would. I don\'t know if it\'s a lose of heart or just a mental block they\'re hitting. But Haz could jump up and down, stand on his head or buy them all a Rolls Royce and I don\'t think it would ever make a bit of difference. This team lacks leader ship! By that I mean on the field, there\'s none.When we signed Brian Cox, I was so hopeing he would be the man to give them that and maybe if they keep him maybe he still will. If it\'s a mental block the only way I can see to remove it is by getting rid of the dead weight. So far Haz has worked to do that. As much as I loved Sammy Knight, he was there when this started, Norman Hand ,same thing.
To be completly honest I\'m not sure that this is the answer but I do know if it is theres only one answer. Get rifd of the problem. I think Haz is trying to do just that.

P.S. If you read the part about Benson, Maybe just maybe thats why Randy Meuller isn\'t with us anymore.

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I logged on so I\'ll speak.

I think this will be Haz\'s year to be the only source of blame if the team falters ... again. I like Haz as a coach but I wonder about his durability as the season goes on. Maybe he himself looses focus and the drives as the season wears on. ???

As for Benson being in the War Room or the draft ... How many owners were not in their War Room? I find it Ironic how some people chastise the succesful people for the ability to be sucessful. Benson did not throw his money to the wrong people in the car business and thus he had enough money to keep his dealerships thriving and also buy a pro football team. I am tired of complaints about rich tight wad sports team owners.

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FW it\'s apparent to me that you have never worked in the car business or knew anyone who worked for Mr. Benson. I have nothing against a rich person. Hell I hope to be one myself one day. There are quite a few owners that I have the utmost resoect for. Mr. Benson just doesn\'t happen to be one of them. My opinion. :D

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Joesam you should not assume. I have worked in the car business and I do know several people who have been working for Benson for over 15 years. There is not a rich guy in the world who is not liked by someone. Benson gets liitle respect for his ownership of the saints but he is a great small market owner ... my opinion.

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FW again you\'re right. I shouldn\'t assume. It\'s just the people i\'ve known that worked for him in my 30 years in the business think a little different. If your friends are happy there,i\'m happy for them. I just hope you didn\'t assume that I disliked every rich owner in pro sports.

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I\'m not sure what to make of your posts, Joe. Are you blaming Benson for not having players that can lead a team? Did he somehow forbid Haslett and Loomis/Mueller to sign or draft players with that quality?
Haslett is ultimately responsible for the team\'s success. For now his track record is pretty good. He missed the play-offs, okay, but new Orleans is still one of the better teams in the league. He has been smart about who to play and who to bench. My biggest problem with Haz is his inability to admit there is a problem. Venturi is clearly out of his league trying to run the defense. Can\'t understand why the head coach is loyal to someone who makes him look so bad.
Same thing: The Brooks situation late last year. Coaches like players who play through injuries, who can\'t do this has chosen the wrong sport. So in my mind it was not Aaron\'s responsibility to demand to be benched, it was Haslett\'s to see what was going on and react. Instead he insists there\'s no problem and goes down with a hurt (or maybe just out of form) QB. It would have been a hard decision to bench the high-paid starter for someone who the organization would let go in a few months, but that shouldn\'t be his concern. Just win, baby. He was loyal once again and it backfired once again.

Haslett can be a good fit for this team when he\'s able to make the hard decisions. I can\'t see us going anywhere with Venturi as defensive coordinator.
Late season collapses: I just love one of Haslett\'s (I think it was him) theories why the Saints tanked. Working out in the heat everyday took too much out of the bodies of his players and they were just drained after seven or eight weeks. This week they\'ll mostly work out indoors to prevent that from happening again. One less excuse ...

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I\'m with you nocloning... Joe, are you saying that all of our players lack heart? That\'s why we tanked the last two years? Or b/c of bad elements in the locker room? Maybe guys become bad elements b/c they speak out when the ship starts to sink... ever consider that? I didn\'t hear anything about Turley being a distraction in the first 8 weeks of last season. But when he sticks it to Brooks about his poor play, now he\'s a bad element? Actually, I\'d probably define him as guy with heart... oops. ;)

I don\'t know how Haslett can say he inherited this team of losers that he\'s had to clean out. Sure that was the case to some degree, but look at the hold overs from the Ditka days that he\'s gotten rid of. Roaf, Turley, Ricky Williams, Glover, Johnson, Delhomme, Charlie Clemons, Sammy Knight...

Two years ago it was the issue with Roaf and Horn. OK, they did house cleaning and brought in Cox to be a leader. Didn\'t work. Now, what are they saying? Well, we\'re cleaning out the bad elements and looking for leadership. You want to know what the biggest difference b/w the 2000 team and the last two teams was? The 2000 team still had all of the veteran leaders on it. The ones the Haslett has cleared out b/c they were overrated, overvalued, or a problem. That\'s the difference.

And nocloning is right about this, \"My players get tired being out in the heat BS\" too. Maybe Haslett were prefer to come up to Chicago and practice in the elements up here in December. Why do you think the Super Bowl is always in a Southern city?! If the weather is such a big deal why does the team do training camp at Nichols?!? Why not fly on up to Minnesota in August? That\'s crap.

There are no more excuses. Haslett has thoroughly cleaned out the Ditka players. He\'s got his guys, his coaches, his team. As an NFL coach you can\'t ask for much more than he\'s got. Get it done or get out.

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Ok guys I hear what you\'re saying. Really I think i\'m trying to agree whit you Whodat. WE NEED veteren leadership on this team. What I was trying to say about Heart is, when things start to go wrong, you can\'t just let it get you down. You have to put that much more into it. I\'m not sure this team knows how to do that. There in the veteren leadership comes in. We just don\'t have it.

As far as Benson is concerned. I think a team is only as good as it\'s owner. I think Mr. Benson should leave the playing to the coachs and the players. Let him deal with Loomis and the money. If he KNEW football it might be different. I\'m sure he knows business, he\'s proved that by the car dealershipe that he has. I\'m just not real sure he knows people and how to deal with them. Look at Mark Cuban, this guy\'s playrers would kill for him, because he treats them like they are more than just a pawn. He knows he knows little about basketball, so he leaves that part of the business to the people that do.
I hope this makes my feelings, and they are just that, my feelings, a little clearer.

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I hear you Joe. Not to harp too much, but I\'d say Benson doesn\'t know talent. He can\'t evaluate it. That\'s his biggest flaw as an NFL owner. That and he seems more concerned with money than winning.... and rightly so. Afterall, to him this is a business. His money is on the line. I will say that anyone who made it big as a car dealer HAS to know people though. If you aren\'t good with people you\'ll never sell anyone a car. ;)

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I have to agree with you Whodat. However from my experience working for many dealers in the industry, it helps if you have good people skills as an owner in the car business but i\'ve worked for a few that had no people skills. Several took care of this problem by not giving the public the chance to get them into the game. That\'s why they had people like me. We handled the customer, the dealer stayed in his office and worried about his money. LOL

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i dont know if benson completly looks at this as a business, i know that he does to an extent but i mean all owners have to be fans of their team and all fans want their team to win, no matter what

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I am going to throw a small bone to Joesam here. Benson does treat this team as a business and he is looking out for the dollar, but doesn\'t every business owner.

A perfect example of Bensons hand in the business can be found in one of Glazers articles about the saints war room coverage. He writes that the saints were considering trading back up into the first round at #23 to pick up Bailey. Loomis had a conversation with Benson about the cost of making this move (ie. salary,signing bonus,picks cost) and Benson made the call to nix the deal.

I personally think it was the right call but this does shed more light on Bensons influence. I personally think Loomis had a \"blank check\" for the first pick but jumping back into the first round after taking a number 6 pick ...

I think the saints added more to the team by staying with the picks after the first trade.

As for the Mark Cuban comparison there is a huge difference there. Cuban works with a smaller group of players so it is easy to build that rapport. Cuban also has $4 billion dollars in his war chest. A fairer comparison would by with Tom Hicks. Here is a guy who will also spend money on players. In Hockey spending money proved to have a direct correlation to winning. In Baseball however, Spending money does not guarantee you anything if it is not used on the right position. I think football is more like baseball and I will use the Redskins as my evidence.

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produce is the key word gator....while most coaches expect players to play through injuries, they expect them to produce also.....haslett made a bad call by not letting jake come in to replace brooks who \"was not\' producing......although he may not admit it, it will be in the back of his mind next time......i am positive he\'s thought about it over and over but it\'s too late this time. as far as benson goes, i believe he stepped in and saved the saints from possibly going to another state, (correct me if i\'m wrong) and because it is his money he should have the say to who it goes to, other than that i think he remains in the background as he and all other owners should.......give me benson over jerry jones any day.......smitty

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Sure it is his money... but you also have to remember that this team is, quite literally, a corporation. Benson is the MAJORITY owner of the Saints, not the only owner. He owns the largest portion by far, true, but think about what that means if you\'re talking about a non-sports franchise.

It means that he would sit on a board and make decisions about the direction that the corporation whould take. He would be in charge of upper MGT - who was hired and who was fired. But he would never have a say in the day to day operations of the business.

For the most part Benson seems to be hands off to me. Certainly moreso than some owners. But he also gets involved sometimes when he shouldn\'t. Let me say this - I think Benson is the best owner New Orleans could hope for. He\'s fought to keep the team in New Orleans (a small market, which, by the way, is not his home town) while larger market cities were looking for a team. He\'s managed to successfully lobby the NFL many times to get the Super Bowl in New Orleans, and while his teams haven\'t always been great, I bet they are one of the top five or ten revenue generators for the entire state. Recently he\'s been bashed b/c he wants a new stadium. Well, look around the NFL. Everyone is getting new stadiums - hell, even the Bears are renovating Soldier Field. Either renovate the Dome for him or build him a new one. That\'s what I say. The $300 million that the State may have to fork out for a new stadium could be put back into the economy with a Super Bowl or two.

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Dang Gator, with the Obi-Kenobi referrence i\'m gonna have to change my signature quote.Whodat, I have to give Benson credit for being less of a pest in football operations than Mecom was.

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The big problem I have with Benson is his jig after Saints wins. Does he still do it? I can\'t watch games in person due to location. That was just more embarassment for a Saints fan. Joe Horn\'s dance is bad enough but Benson\'s is just hard to defend.

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that\'s the \"benson boogie\" and i don\'t mind watching it after every win, in fact i\'d like to watch it more..........smitty

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Nah, nah, nah, you guys are all way off.

The root of the problem is not Benson, or Haz, or Cox, or lack of leadership. It\'s not Heart, it\'s not conditioning, it\'s not poor game planning, or leadership, or locker room presence, or anything like that.

It\'s all just Pakowitz\'s fault. QED.

:)

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my bad dog... ill try to fix it this time

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I think our secondary will be better. Dale Carter and Ashley Ambrose are two solid veteran backs. I think. I also think Keyou Craver has alot too offer. Mitchell and Jones will help.

Also I think the DL will get more pressure on opposing QB\'s.

Linebacker remains the big Question in my mind.

Can\'t wait to see how this turns out.