i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

he has the mindset of bb, but he does'nt come through.....
it took less than a yr for other teams to figure him out,
some less, and he can't get it done......
sure, it's early, but i have a gut feeling on this one....
we were done at 0-4, and it should have never gotten to that,
but, here we are and what's done is done........
next yr? i'll wait again............smitty

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

Keep your head up smitty. Payton will get us back into the playoffs next year. We weren't working with much on defense this year... that won't be the case next season.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

The only problem I worry about with Payton is that, yeah, we didn't have much of a defense to work with this year, but I don't think he's going to do jack about it in the offseason. He drafted Robert Meachem last year instead of a defensive player and then continued to ignore the defense for the rest of the draft/offseason.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

No way I'd get rid of Payton, he's a good coach with an awful defense, he'll work with Lommis this off season to get better I'm sure.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

ssmitty... calm down bro... if payton can squeeze 7 wins out of a team whose defense: 1. can't create pressure on the quarterback 2. can't cover in the backfield, on offense: 1. who's running game is non-existent and 2. passes the whole game, then the guy is a genius. if payton were really bad... we'd end up 4-12 at the worst.

think about that for a minute.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I have Faith and Trust in Coach Payton. It was his second year as a Head Coach.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

LOL it is only year 2. We got banged up this year. Last year we stayed healthy. That is a big part of to. I still say we are a better team today than we were last year. Now finish the offense for the love of god and lets move on to the defense.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I wasn't trying to sound like I don't think Payton is the answer, because I think he can be, but I do think that he mishandles his personnel. His playcalling also, frankly, blows sometimes. Swing passes and screens don't work every down and it makes me want to pull my hair out when I see a screen pass on 3rd and long that gets 2 yards, or a swing pass on 3rd and 3 that gets run out of bounds at the line of scrimmage. He's a good coach, and he's done a good job, in total, over the last two seasons, I just wish he would iron out some of the issues that we've seen this year.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

Papz,

What makes you think that the defense is going to be any different next year?The team spent time and picks getting new folks, who fundamentally never hit the field. Most of us believe that Simineau must have pictures of Payton and Gibbs doing something obscene with a farm animal because there's no way the guy should be on the field. The talent evaluators and coaches picked up Jason David, who shall we say has been less than stellar this season. The scheme has issues too.

So what's going to be different next year? Different talent? Different coaches? Different scheme?

I wait impatiently to see how this defense is going to improve.

SFIAH

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I held off posting for a day to try to give yesterday's game time to fade from my memory, but I have to agree with this post 100%. Payton does so many things wrong, I think our players are winning games in spite of him, rather than with his assistance.

When his game plan works for a particular week, everything's OK. When his game plan isn't working, he rides that failed effort all day long - never adjusts. Our entire offense seems to be misdirection and trick plays. That helps other teams predict the potential for trick plays. No one is fooled any more. Do you notice how opposing defenses always seem to be in position to blow up our plays?

He gambles too much. I'm not saying that gambling is bad, when its used in moderation. It's like he can't turn it off. He challenges meaningless plays, seemingly without any of "our" booth review - thus wasting time outs. He tries to force plays when its obvious to everyone (including my football-clueless wife) that we need to try something different. His gambling cost us two wins this year.

He's not much good at talent evaluation. I know everyone just screamed "Colston" at the monitor, but if he thought Colston was any good - he wouldn't have waited until the seventh to pick him up. The rest of his draft (in both years) is spotty at best - Reggie not withstanding (I think he'll be a fine RB shortly). Additionally, he values work-ethic more than talent and skill on the field. He likes guys who bring their lunch pail to work and will keep them on the field seemingly just because they try hard. It doesn't matter that they're getting beat all over the place - the guy tries hard so he's a "Payton Guy" and play in spite of the fact that we can all see his backup outplaying him when they're on the field. That's very heartwarming but not much good to the team, the owners or the fans. It seems to be the same with coaches - with inferior guys running the show (though I'm not sure how much influence Payton has over the coaching staff - so I give him a pass on that one).

The players are losing (if they haven't already lost) faith in him. How many of you noticed the way the players are reacting to him now? I can't hear what they're saying to each other, but their body language is telling. It resembles how people behave when they are around that one guy at work that everyone finds annoying and "full of it", but for the sake of politeness they endure his presence. I even saw Charles Grant reach out a hand as if to say "Get away from me" when Payton was walking alongside him trying to talk to him.

Those are the things I see when I evaluate my beloved Saints. It's just my opinion, but I think it's accurate. Payton is not a good coach. Good coaches I see around the league seemingly struggle for several years while they build a good team. The teach fundamentals while they build the talent they need. The teams they are building seem to play hard, but still lose more than they win for a while - but they play solid fundamental football. Then when the talent joins the team, they start to win and compete consistently and win lots of football games. We were all drinking the kool-aid from last year's magical fluke - but that's not how a good coach works. Our fundamentals are awful on both sides of the ball and our players do not play with discipline.

Everyone in the league was shocked by Payton's new style of "gamble-ball" and it worked for a year while people figured it out. Now we're seeing what kind of coach he really is, when his one surprise trick has been taken away. Weekly we get to watch as our team is over-matched, out-coached, and humbled (lots of times even when the scoreboards shows that we won).

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I know Duce, you were not going down that path.
I have been waiting for this. As soon as we loose it starts. We win and it is quite. LOL
There is no way the saints can focus as much on offense as they have in the past 2 years. They are simply running out of rooster spots. Thats all. I need to know if the OL drafted in the past 2 drafts are going to be ready to step in. Is Duce going to really come back and be productive? What else is left. Colston will get a big pay raise. Mechem is getting big money already. As are Bush and Drew. So the OL and Duce are the big question marks. The OL is so close to being done it is sicking. I still want Brown moved back to RT. To do it we might have to draft a LT to start if the bench can not do it. If Duce does not come back we can go FA or draft. But PT and Stecker might do well with bush in the same backfield.

Whats left? DEFENSE

Year two of the rebuild gang. RELAX. I like the depth we have shown on this team. Alot of players stepped up and played well with all the injuries we have had in this season. I am amazed that we are looking at 500 with Duce out and all the injuries. 2 years ago we would have been in the running for the #1 pick of the draft.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

i saw 4 games that the coaching was a good part of the loss.talent covers some,teaching of position covers some,health covers a lot.hopefully,he will improve his grades next year as well as the players learning.that leaves talent improvement and team health to deal with.
what " GENIUS COACH " is available that we could get to do better?

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I don't think Payton is the whole, entire problem.

Last year he could do no wrong and he and the entire Saints roster were the league's Golden Boys. An NFC South Championship during your first year as head coach of what is thought to be a dismal team is surely going to give you a boost in your confidence.

Then think about post-season when everyone was touting that this might be the year that the Saints can take it all the way to the Superbowl AND win. Ah, yes, let's boost that confidence (and ego) a little bit more.

I think Payton suffers from a bit of the big head with a large dose of knucklehead thrown in for good measure. I think he calls these boneheaded plays (swing pass on 3rd and short? wtf?!) because he thinks he's a bit of a miracle worker.

Maybe this is the kind of year the team (or more specifically, Payton) needed. A reality check of sorts. Don't be cute, don't be stupid and don't be a knucklehead.

I don't even think you can count last year as experience for Payton. Too many emotions tied to it for it to be a true, down in the dirt, first year as head coach coaching experience. I like to think of this year as his real first year out of the gate...and I think he did all right.

Now, if he comes out with the same kind of BS next year I might be singing a totally different tune. Until then, I'm with him. :cool:

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

Ok, I don't know how to quite take this year but I do know this. All we needed was 2 things to make the play-offs and if we would've done them a while back we would not be having this conversation. 1, quit making Reggie the focus of our offensive play-calling, put him in space, create match-ups, use deception but pound the runs with someone a little more suited to the running game in the NFL. (This was Payton's choice.) And 2. if we replaced Jason David and left someone else in there for the remainder of the season we would've not given up quite so many easy pass-plays for scores. (This was Gibb's choice.) Given the change to both of these situations and we would be in the play-offs right now with no need to worry or argue. So who does the overall blame rest with for not making the calls on either one of these? And why do the majority of people watching the Saints games see this and the coaching staff can't? People from analysts, former players,former coaches, announcers and the everyday fan???

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I'm going with the assumption that with 35+ million dollars in cap room, we'll sign some quality defensive players for our defense. Lots of top talent out there this offseason for the bidding. I'm also going on the assumption that we learn from our mistakes on defense. We won't start David, sign a good corner, get a blitzing linebacker, and start putting pressure on opposing quarterbacks. I'm just trying to stay positive... hopefully it'll come true. With how bad our secondary was this year, there's no where to go but up.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

Already running Payton out of town? Come on…

I think this offseason will show if Payton is really a head coach, and not just an OC in charge of the team. There are changes that need to be made on defense, both in personnel and even coaching, so we’ll see how good Payton does as a true HC.

As for the offense, there were some bad plays called at the wrong time, and some issues with blocking schemes; if you really look at it, is not that the opposing players knew what the Saints were doing, it is more like the blocking schemes left a lot to be desired. Couple of examples: we heard all the time how they wanted to give Bush the ball in space, but “in space” apparently meant without anyone around blocking for him; or the blitz, who the o-line was never able to hold. Drew’s presence in the pocket had more to do with the low sack count than the o-line’s blocking.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

the only we we get to the play-offs next year............everyone healthy, new defensive cordinator, and a solid defensive draft, with atleast two key additions on defensive side of the ball in the off season......if we dont make moves this off season we will be stuck being a so-so team forever...........destined to go 7-9, 8-8,9-7 and back down to 6-10

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I will support Payton until about 5 or 6 games into next season. If we are anything below 500 I will be calling for the boy genusis head and we better have a brand new defense and defensive coach this stuff has got to end and end now.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I believe that Payton can be the guy, but I do believe in the widespread sentiment on this board that he better damn well do something about this defense in the offseason.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

Well I dunno if Payton is the problem. But I do know the Saints has a problem.

On the minus side:
That defence is the worst. Any team can beat up on it. The starting personnel was not good enough from game 1. And no one has bothered to improve it. If anything, small fixes (like KK and possibly OY) were overlooked.

Playcalling. The screen. This play drives me nuts. It stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, almost worked, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks, stinks. And then the timing of "smart" plays were poor (Tampa Bay - reverse when the game was ours; Philly - going for it when there's almost a full half to go, blah, blah, bleat, bleat, blah, boo-hoo, deep weeping).

Draft. Why were the Saints exempt this year? We might as well have been. Good money on nothing.

Replacing injured players. Excuse me - when did Deuce go down for the season? Just what did we do? Absolutely nothing.


On the plus side:
Doing as well as we did despite all the minuses.

Happy bloody Christmas. Yep I am hurting ok?

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

===========

Our offensive line cannot run block, in general. Not singling anyone one particular player out, however without a BIG, MEAN, DEUCE on the field we just have not been able to move anyone off the ball. With Deuce in the lineup this was less of a problem because he was/is? such a good running back.

Without some roadgraders at one Center position and another at guard it just isn't going to happen for our running game without a healthy Deuce, or Deuce like player. Brown needs to be a RT, there he can be one of if not the best in the league. Let some of our backups try for LT and if nothing then we need a new player there.

We have a lot more holes on offense to fill than folks see sometimes, if Deuce is out we need at least two new offensive players, maybe three. Let's not even talk about our defensive needs.


I am sorry maybe I am in the minority, but for the most part Payton is doing a good job considering all the issues. Not great but good. I mean any idiot could see Simmons and KK should be on the field over Simmoneau and Bullocks. Bullocks should beef up and move to Shanle's place and then I think we have most of the LB problem solved and just need to draft/FA a couple of corners and some D line help.

With a more complete team I think Payton can do wonders, his talent eval is sometimes questionable, of course it may be that Payton lets Gibbs handle all of that so that Oayton will have a scapegoat to fire at the end of this season.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I do think this coach is learning. I hate the excuse that the Saints were good last year because of the "Katrina Excitement" factor. Coach Peyton is young... very young. He motivated a defense that was sub par last year.

I also think for the great off season moves before 2006, we made some real crappy moves before 2007. I mean we have players we drafted that are not contributing and may never contribute.

I don't believe in the first year jinx. Next year will be pivotal for this team and coach. What happens this offseason will tell everyone what to expect this year. If we draft another WR in the first round you can forget about it. We have some major problems on defense and should concentrate our offseason on trading/drafting at least 1 major corner, some LB's that can cover the pass, and strengthening the d-line and o-line. If we draft skills positions like WR or another RB, everyone has a right to gripe.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

1-10: Empty Backfield, 4-Wide... Incomplete
2-10: 3-Bunch Right w/ 1-Back... 2yrd Gain
3-8: Empty Backfield, 4-Wide... Incomplete
Punt

1-10: 3-Bunch Left w/ 1-Back... 13yrd Gain
1-10: 3WR w/1-Back... 6yrd Run
2-4: 3-Bunch left w/ 1-back... Pass for -1yrd Loss
3-5: Empty Backfield, 4-Wide... Incomplete
Punt

1-10: 3WR w/1-Back... PLAYACTION... 15yrd Gain
1-10: Full Backfield... 4yrd Run
2-6: Empty Backfield, 4-Wide... 3yrd Gain
3-3: 3WR-Bunch Left w/ 1-Back... Pass for -1yrd Loss
Punt



Any of this sound familiar?



I see this every single Sunday. I think SP has 7 plays in his playbook - max.


Plenty of good points have been made. My faith is still with SP... though, I'd take Marty right about now. We just need a new playbook.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

1 more thing... the reason for the PLAYACTION part of that post:

Anyone else find it bizarre that we run play action passes even though we didn't have 1-single running play in the previous two drives?

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I don't know if he is learning or not yet. I am giving him a pass this year. I think whats going to make or break him is this offseason.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

We couldn't get their offense off the field," said Payton, a lament the 2006 Coach of the Year has used, accurately, many times in 2007.

As the Eagles were running out the clock Sunday, a small portion of what was left of a crowd of 70,011, started to yell: "Defense, defense, defense."

It sounded like a message to Payton about 2008's No. 1 priority.


from nola.com

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

Sounds like Sean loves the run and shoot. Maybe the Saints should hire Warren Moon as a consultant. Hell, I love the run and shoot too, but unless Sean has figured out a formula that no one else has, it simply doesn't work anymore.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

There is more wrong with the Defense than there is with the offense. The offense isn't losing them games it the defense can't stop anyone when they need to.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I like Payton I think he will make a good head coach, but I think he made 3 terrible decisions this year that will make this team end at 8-8.
1)Knowing your kicker has a pulled groin and not getting a replacement or at least not counting on him for any production. I think that cost us that Carolina game.
2)Tampa Bay game trying to hold onto the lead by doing a double reverse flee flicker statue of liberty whatever it was. Even if it worked I think it would still go down as an unnecessary risk. I think that cost us the Bucs game.
3)Why challenge that pass to Patten on the 1 ft line? I think in a situation like that I would want my team to go no huddle run up to the line try a qb sneek or hand off to whoever is in the backfield. I think you give an advantage to the defense by giving them a rest and they can bring in the goal line defense with 6 dlinemen. Dont know how that series or the game would have ended up but if the defense wants to substitute goal line personnel I would make them call a TO and not just give them a chance to do it on a questionable challenge.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I like the 3rd point in the above post. That challenge was ridiculous. We killed all of the momentum we had. We had the defense on the ropes and then we let them recover.


At first, I thought Sean Payton had an aweful lot of confidence in this football team. Throwing it 80% of the time, going for it on 4th down with the ball on our own 30-yard line, etc. Now, I'm starting to think the opposite.

Maybe he has no confidence in his team. Maybe that's why he thinks he has to run trick plays and try to fool teams every game. Maybe he doesn't think this team can just line up and perform.


And, yes, I also agree that the defense is the biggest concern. It should be the main concentration in the off season. That said, we still need another playbook - or atleast add twice as many plays as we have now.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

Must of yall make good points....but...for me this Thread is right on the money. When I went back to watch the nfc championship game I thought his playcallin was horrible and cost us the game.

This season he hasn't gotten any better. We need a defensive minded coaching staff.

If Payton does stay....he does need to hire a new D-Cord and a new Defensive Staff.

I know we've had alot of injuries, but the most disappointing constant this year has been Sean Payton's playcalling.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

.. you mean defensive minded like Haslett or Marvin Lewis?
Hell no!!!


The most dissapointing constant of this year has been the defense not being able to stop anyone.
We have 3rd Down giving away 3rd and longs like they're going out of style, a MLB who constantly runs into the back of whichever DT is in front of him, 2 DEs who are so foreign to the opposing team's backfield they need to present passports to rush the QB, and a FS who avoids open gaps like Herpes.
Among the starters, only Fujita and McKenzie are worth their pay.

We don't need a "defensive minded" coach. We just need Payton to mind the defense, and realize that he needs to be the head coach, not just the OC, and that he needs to make personnel calls on defense as well, and that includes the coaching staff as well as the players.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

First of all, I can't believe people are complaining about one of the highest scoring offenses in the league. Succeeding in spite of coaching? Sure, if this was college football. It doesn't work that way in the NFL. There are too many great athletes on even the worst of teams for that to happen. The only way any side of the ball can succeed in professional football is through good coaching and playcalling. Sure, coach Payton had a couple of brain farts this season, but even all time great coaches have those. Don't believe me? How long did Kordell Stewart start in Pittsburgh?

Secondly, why does everyone single Payton out when talking about the team's free agency failures? Last time I checked, he isn't the general manager. Last year everyone was praising one Mickey Loomis for bringing in a great free agent class. Yet all of a sudden, now that we see this years signings have grossly underperformed, it is Payton's fault? Come on, people.

Thirdly, yes picking Robert Meacham in the first round turned out to be a bad pick. And yes, that does fall on Payton because head coaches usually have the most say so when selecting in the first two rounds of the draft. But after that, it is primarily the front office doing the picking. Guess who should get the blame for this year's bad draft after the first round? That's right, it's Mickey Loomis again. Not only did he draft horribly when his turn to bat came up, but he traded out of the second round when there were some good cornerbacks still on the board.

And finally, you guys should know better. We've had horrible offseasons like this one to throughout Mickey Loomis's tenure with this team. Last year is probably the only good off-season we've had under him. He drafts the same way every year. He signs the same kinds of free agents every year. Yet somehow, some way, Sean Payton is responsible for his mediocrity.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

Good points wheelman. I believe Sean Payton will be a great coach. He just needs to learn a little more about play calling in the NFL. When to use gadget plays and when to use hard nose football plays. He's been here for only 2 seasons after inheriting an awful team. Everyone just needs to take a look around the league and see how long it's taken for some other coaches to come in and make their teams winners in a short time. What's Marvin Lewis doing? Romeo Crennel finally has a winning record but they are not in the playoffs yet. Herm Edwards? Any coach that goes to the Cardnials. It is tough to win in the NFL just ask Cam Cameron. Sean Payton will figure this out and the Saints will have a good stretch run for the next 5 years making the playoffs every year and winning the division at least 3 times in the next 5 years. The one person we are forgetting about in this is Benson's granddaughter Rita. She is being groomed to take over as owner and I don't think she wants to be the owner of a loser. She will get with Loomis and give him the money to make this team a winner so it is up to him to get the correct talent evaluators and players for this team to succede.

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

Well, I'm not 100% in Payton's camp, but I think he gets a bad rap for some of his play calling and his "unusual" offensive scheme. I don't defend his gambling, but I do defend his "trick" offense... for now.

I think Payton is doing the best he can with the personnel he has. I think he would love to play smash mouth ball, but how are you supposed to do that with Reggie, Aaron, and a weak OL? When you run up 28 points and still lose, how bad is your offense, really?

This team's needs were so great when Payton took over that he had no choice but to adjust to his personnel. Dominant offensive and defensive linemen are almost as rare as a great QB. It takes at least 3-4 years to collect a good assemblage of players when you start from basically zero. So unless he implodes next year, I'll support him for 2 or 3 more years.

One more condition on supporting Payton next year: Save for a maybe a dominant run blocking OL, he better not draft offense!

Re: i just don't think payton is the answer....
 

I'm not certain it makes a difference which side of the ball we draft for this year. Talent evaluation appears to be a weakness for our team. Additionally, Payton does not appear to play the best player at a position, but rather a "Payton" guy (see Simoneau, David, et all).