Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Shouldn't we be using Brown back at RT and put Streif in at LT?

What is wrong with Brown?
 

Strief to the LT?
Stinch was only resigned to give Bushrod time to develope at LT. Stinch is the odd man out in the big picture, IMO. Next year Brown will be RT and Bushrod will be LT. Stinch will walk as a FA. That leaves strief as our #1 backup at both tackle positions.
What I like about Stief is The fact he gets better each year. I really like him. You never know he may make Brown excellent trade bait.

Re: who was the steal in our draft?
 

What is wrong with Brown?

He's a good tackle. Sure, he'd be better at RT, but is he so bad at LT?

Re: who was the steal in our draft?
 

That's exactly what I keep asking myself. Where is all of this Brown talk coming from? I love the guy and I think he's a keystone type player. Maybe I missed something last year.

Re: who was the steal in our draft?
 

It's from the possible trade up to the #2 spot with the Rams. I think everyone agrees that Brown is a better RT than LT. Streif did well at LT so it seems the line would improve with Streif at LT and Brown at RT. Make Stinch be the back up tackle or put him at LG.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Brown. he is a pro bowler. Have a question to ask y'all.

1) If at RT Stnch or Streif can do the job and Bushrod prove to very good LT in the NFL would you think the wise move would be to trade Brown for say a #2 and #5?

Me I say keep him but if you have a player that can step in and do the job you really have to consider doing it. The pick in rounds 2 and 5 would have to in the top 10 though.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

No need to put Brown at RT. Yes, Brown is probably a better RT than a LT, but isn't that true for most guys? The LT is way harder to play. I know Brown had a couple of rough games last year, but he did have some nagging injury issues. With those nagging injuries he probably would have played those couple of games at RT just as bad. Anyway, Brown is a legitimate all pro LT. I do like Streif but Brown is a starter for a reason, that reason is he is simply the better player. I am just happy that the Saints appear to have solid depth on the front line. The Saints should be able to sustain a major injury if it occurs.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

The only problem with Brown is that he gets concrete-feet from time to time, he needs to work on his foot quickness to avoid lunging in passpro. Especially against the faster ends.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

I'm going to say this....Brown is not an All-Pro!!! He made one Pro Bowl while riding the hype of the saints best season ever. By the way...he also leads the team in penalties by an offensive lineman. So...yes he's a good RT, but Strief would be a better LT IMO.

Re: who was the steal in our draft?
 

Brown is one of the premier left tackles in the NFC if not the whole NFL....the criticisms started when trade talks started about using him to move up into the #2 spot to land dorsey....our offensive line is not expendable....they gave drew time last year and allowed the fewest sacks in the NFL....since we got rid of faine we had to fix a whole...we brought in matt lehr to do that...our line is back to where it was....dorsey on defense wouldnt fill the void left by Brown missing at LT

Re: who was the steal in our draft?
 

What?!?! Brown is average...nothing more at LT. He's strong at RT, but not LT.

Question: What offensive lineman led the Saints in penalties for the last 4 seasons?

Answer: J. Brown

Does a premiere LT lead your team in penalties? Nope. Do the research....though Drew Brees was rarely sacked last year, which side did the majority of those sacks come from? Here's a hint....it wasn't the right. Also....did you notice that the team had more rushing yards up the middle & to the right? Surely, we should have had more yards rushing to the left behind a premiere LT like Brown, right? (Sacasm intended).

Now....I'm all for keeping Brown, but please do not come with the he's a premiere LT BS. He's not. He had one...yes, one Pro Bowl because the Saints made it to the NFC championship game. There were more deserving offensive lineman on our team that year (Evans) that didn't get the invite. Why? What is a right handed QB's most noticed offensive lineman? LT (even if they are not as good as advertised).

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

He is a good LT but by no means a premiere LT. He would be a premiere RT teamed with Evans.
If the back ups develop it may be a good idea to see what kind of picks we can get for him. But for the love of God make sure first.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

how can an unproven tackle start over a pro-bowler...it doesnt matter if he made it only one year....he earned it....dont hate on a saint dude...streif is a back up and a good one..but hes a backup....u can use the games he got to play as an example but not a whole argument...he hasnt shown consistency much like brown....while offsides are inexcusable.....his penalties were not detrimental to the outcome of the game...thats easily fixed and thats a terrible thing to rip on somebody....thats like saying jason davids biggest concern is holding the recievers....brown doesnt have many...if ne question marks with his blocking....the sacks came off of blitzes and yes...some linemen sacks but the saints got taken advantage of...we didnt expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season...we adjusted and it fixed the problem

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Unproven? How's this for proof? Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years. In his starts in the pros, he allowed less sacks, less tackles behind the line of scrimmage, & had less penalties per game than J. Brown. He's also a much better run blocker. Now...if all you can use is the term unproven in regards to starting time, everyone in the NFL is unproven at one time or another. As for the "we didn't expect so much pressure from defenses that early in the season" excuse....dude, it's the NFL! As a starting offensive lineman, you should expect pressure from opposing defenses EVERY game. That's just a poor excuse for bad play. I'm not saying Brown is horrible. He's not. I'm saying he's a better fit at RT where he could actually be an elite RT (especially with help from J'Hari Evans at his side). I've been to just about every home game for the last 4 years & I'm telling you....Strief has performed better at LT than Brown in his starts. I know you're on the "I love J. Brown" train, but watch the games & you will see what a few of us are trying to tell you.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

The most penalties on the OL! That is an interesting stat. What year did Riley play for us? I can't imagine he didn't have the most penalties that season.

Ghandi, I enjoyed your post. I have two question before I buy your argument (which I am close to buying):

(1) Don't most sacks come off the left side of the Offense? That is, it would be helpful to know the number of sacks the Saints left side allowed when compared to (at least) other teams.

(2) If it is more difficult to play LT than RT (which I currently believe), isn't it more likely to garner more penalites at LT than a roughly equally skilled RT? That is, don't most teams LTs have the most penalties for any player on the OL (barring the dirty players who tend to get flagged more)? Here, again, it would be helpful to know (a) if Brown has signifcantly more penalties than other LTs, and (b) if LTs in general have the most penalites of any position on the OL.

I'm certainly willing to concede that Brown is an average starting LT in this league, but that would put him at the roughly the 16th best LT in the world. Not too shabby.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Here's some stats that confirm Gandi's claim about the left side being worse than the right side.

SI.com - NFL - Sortable Team Offensive Line Stats - Individual Leaders

These stats are fairly broad strokes though. Does anyone know where I can get more precise statistics for the OL?

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Of course the LT position is the tougher of the two OT positions....this is true. However...they do not necessarily garner the most penalties. See the Kansas City offensive lines when Roaf (a real elite LT) was there. RG was actually the most penalized on that team believe it or not. I'm not saying that Brown is the worst....he's not. He's average for the position. What I am saying is that in the games I've seen, Strief outperformed him. That's all. A few of us have been saying for a while now...."What if we moved Brown back to RT & started Strief at LT?" Now....that would be wonderful. Of course, I am not Sean Payton, so I may never see that. But....I honestly believe from what I've seen on the field that the OL would be more solid.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

I like Jammal brown and i think he is a good LT....he is not elite...but he is worthy of starting at LT....for some reason u are obsessed with strief...he may start at RT this year but brown has earned his position....and dude..ne body except stinch can do a great job with jahri over there...lol thats silly....jahri is great....the fact that they got blitzed like no other is not an excuse...its just lack of communication and may have caused his false starts...hmm?...if u get overloaded on one side its more likely u'll jump?...it is true however....later in the season we had better protection because we anticipated the blitz on the left....we have a great line and switching too many players around could mess up the gel we have...why fix something that isnt broken?

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Let me get this straight..... You've gone from "Brown is a premiere LT" to "he is not elite". Huh? Is this the Okey-Doke or what? Dude....I'm done.

P.S.- No one is obsessed with Strief. I do however have my opinion that he is a better fit at LT than Brown. That opinion is based on actually being at the games & watching what takes place on the field....not what stats & accolades I read on any one player. For instance...Emmitt Smith is the NFL's all time leading rusher. Do I believe he was better than Walter Payton or Barry Sanders? HELL NO!!!! I watched all of them play & I can tell you that Emmitt couldn't hold a candle to those two. But....if you go by blind stats, Emmitt is supposedly the best of all times, right? Hmmmm....

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

i figured somebody would say something about that....and i had 2 different meanings for elite and premier...i shoulda clarified it....he is a premiere LT....he goes in consistantly and does his job on a weekly basis....an elite LT goes in and does his job consistantly and does his job on a weekly basis....but he does it better than nebody else...he is intimidating...he is ferocious so-to-speak....he does it with ease....if u dont wanna go on about it thats fine....but i thought u might want me to clear that up for u

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

i think that definition clarifies the emmit argument too.....he would fall under premiere then wouldnt he?....Walter Payton in my mind is the best running back of all time...Jim brown set the record in less games but he was before his time...walter had the speed and size and altheticism to beat out ne running back of ne time...emmit was consistant week in and week out but was not flashy about it and didnt wow ne body with his talent

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

and....sorry..im kinda rambling.....im not comparing jammal brown to jonnathan ogden or orlando pace....or even willie roaf....but i think he deserves credit for holding down the line....he deserves it for his accomplishments not the criticisms that every player has....hes not perfect but he does his job and he does it well

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Dear gandhi,

You act like you're the only one who watches the games. An opinion based on actually being at the games is still just an opinion. I've watched almost every game J.Brown has played and in my opinion he's an above average starter in this league.

I thought your argument for wanting Strief to start over Brown at LT was laughable. "Strief anchored his college offensive line for 3 years", why does that make him better than Brown. What about what Brown did in college? He was a freaking All American! Since when does being a 3 year starter in college make you better than a proven starter in the NFL. Not only a proven starter but a guy that went to the Pro Bowl. And I don't want to hear the BS about how he only made the Pro Bowl because the Saints had a good season. Why would somebody say that about one of our players? Brown was a beast two years ago and he'll be a beast again this year if he stays healthy. And of course he would be a better RT than LT, who wouldn't? Walter Jones would be unreal at RT!

If you watch so many games then you should know that a RT has fewer responsibilities and more help. You should know that defenses usually line their best pass rushing DE at RE to rush the blind side. A LT has to square off with the other teams best edge rushers every week. Brown starts at LT because we NEED him there. I'm sure the coaches would love to put Brown at RT and let him maul in the running game. If Strief was a better LT than Brown then he would be our starting LT, but he's not and I don't even think it's close.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Agreed. wonder if we could still get some DNA and clone him? I could wait 22 years. SWEETNESS

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Above average LT, I could agree with. Premiere or elite....HELL NO!!!

Now...1st off, as I said earlier, LT is tougher than RT. Scroll back man. You'll see that I've already established that fact. As for watching the games....did you watch DeMarcus Ware treat Brown like his personal biyatch consistently? Or how about Julius Peppers? Did you see him blow by Brown consistently? I sure did. I also saw a supposed Pro Bowler consistently average more penalties than anyone else on our line for years now (including Evans in his rookie season). How many times have I heard "False Start #70" or "Holding #70" on the loudspeaker in the dome? Brown was an All American. Great! Strief was a 1st team All American & 3-time 1st team All Big TEN OT. I believe that trumps Brown's college career, but that wasn't my point. My point was that everyone is deemed unproven until they actually start for a season.

Now... add all of this to the fact that I saw Strief man-handle two top flight DE's while manning the LT position in Brown's absence, one of which was Julius Peppers (the same guy who consistently beat Brown). Do you know how many sacks Peppers had? 0. How about tackles behind the line? 0. This is just one example. I hate to say this....but if you don't think it's close, we're not watching the same games. I'll also say this....if you really think he deserved that Pro Bowl invite when no one else on that line went, you're out of your mind! Like I said before....he rode the coattails of a winning season into that Pro Bowl.

By the way....a RT does not have any less reponsibilty or more help. He still has a job to do as well. It just so happens that the better DE's are usually lining up against the LT to attack from the blind side.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Ware and peppers consistently make everybody look bad....not just brown...and he looked no worse than the rest of the NFC against those 2....no doubt Brown would make a great RT....and i would love for him to be there because that would mean we have a pure beast at LT...strief isnt that guy lol....i actually went back and looked at some films of him from last year...and the only thing i saw was brown making the blocks...keeping his head on a swivel....choppin his feet....and kicking the horse @#%$ outta the ends he went against....maybe i missed something

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

There you just found the standard for the LT position. now can Bushrod be that man? we will find out this year. same goes for Andy. Those two will be on the field. So the test for 2009 starts now

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

i feel dumb for pointing this out....doesnt demarcus ware play for dallas?....im just curious when we played dallas last year?...if u have ne idea let me know..i'd like to find film on it and watch brown get owned....just food for thought...as far as bushrod and alleman go....i was born in akron and most of my friends are goin to akron U so i gotta say im rootin for andy alleman and i'd love to see him make it as a starter for the saints...i hope bushrod comes thru but i think its unlikely that he'll be the guy we need

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Gandi, thanks for the point about KCs line. That is interesting. I'm not sure that it counts as usual, but it is something to go from.

Fine points about Strief's performance. If he has grown to be better than Brown at LT, then I'm all for giving him a shot - I hope our coaches at least give him a chance to show what he can do (and don't simply consider the LT spot Brown's).

I'll certainly agree that last year wasn't Brown's best, but thankfully the learning curve shallow and the duration of careers at T in the NFL are long. Brown could still get much better. There is also good evidence that he is, in fact, quite good.

I'm a bit confused about the "proven player" arguments. By this reasoning, no new player would ever unseat a starter from the previous year - that is not the case, so "proven player" arguments only get you so far. Brown should be evaluated on his merits (which I think are plenty), but that doesn't mean an "unproven" player, like Strief, couldn't be better suited for the position.

This is an interesting discussion. I think several good points have been made on both sides. Myself, I don't think it much matters how good Brown is (with respect to being elite, or any other name); I'm more interested in understanding whether our coaches are making good decisions in keeping him at LT, rather than moving him over to RT.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

2006...Go to youtube & look up the Demarcus Ware highlights videos. On one of the videos, there are two plays in particular where Jamaal Brown is the highlight biyatch. One of them, Ware throws Brown on his a** on route to a QB sack (very ugly) & the other one is of Ware blowing by Brown without even getting touched (& it wasn't an offsides either). I was at both those games & believe me....those weren't the only plays in those games that Ware made Brown look pitiful. One was a pre-season game in Shreveport & the other was when we blew Dallas out in Irving. I know Ware is an elite DE (& he really is elite)...no doubt, but Brown still played horribly. I think Brown is very coachable has great finesse, I just don't think he has the physical abilities that Strief has. That's not just about size. Everyone knows Strief is huge, but he is sound in technique as well. Time will tell, but I think Brown only has a year or two left in a Saints uniform. I think we will see come contract time.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Gandhi you are being blinded by your Strief man crush. I've seen some bad cases of man crushes in my time but this might be the worst ever. If it's not the worst it's certainly the most misguided. Of all the players you could crush on why Big Strief? Did you go to Northwestern or something? Is he your brother? Are you Gandhi Strief?

Seriously though gandhi I see that you're really passionate about Strief and I hope he ends up being as good as your hype. I've seen the guy play and I know he has talent, I just don't think he's as good as Brown. You said that Strief "man-handled" Peppers, I guess I missed that man-handling. I don't think anybody could "man-handle" Peppers.

Check it, if Strief is better than Brown then why isn't he the starter? Are the coaches just not giving him his proper respek?

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Dude that is so unfair to throw Demarcus Ware into this discussion. That's like a low blow or something. He doesn't even count.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

This was Browns second year at LT so NFL coaches got a chance to dissect his game and find his weaknesses. now it is up to the saints coaches to help Brown correct those things. Brown will probably come in a little liter than last year to increase his quickness if he is smart.
Stief is a wild card once again. How much will he improve again this year? He is definitely the player that has worked his way into my heart. He just seems to get better ever year.

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Again 2006...yes...man-handled. I couldn't believe it either. This was the game that made me like Strief. Then again...it could be the Tampa game that year at Tampa when strief abused Simeon Rice. :)

To answer your question about Strief not being the starter.... Why did Jason David start instead of Usama Young? Why was Bullocks starting ahead of KK? Why was Stecker starting over Pierre Thomas? These are all valid questions that I just cannot answer. :)

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Stecker is a man beast..dont hate my man

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

I can help you answer those questions. David started over Usama because Usama was a rookie who didn't know his arsehole from a hole in the ground, not that David knew either but you know what I mean. But this year I think Usama will go hard and push for a starting spot. I say it's dime time for David.

Bullocks started over KK because he has more speed. Bullocks has speed but he's like a virgin on prom night in that he doesn't know what to do with it. A duo of Roman and KK would be a smart but slow couple. Unless Bullocks can find a way to remove his head from his arse KK will be starting by week 5.

Stecker was ahead of Pierre because Pierre was a rookie and Stecker is a crafty vet. But from what I hear this year will be a different story. People on this board love Pierre like a kid brother. I mean, I'm rooting for the guy but I have to see more of him before I jump on his rather large band wagon.

I know that you already knew all that but my point is that the coaching staff is going to put the best 11 on the field. As bad as it sounds David and Bullocks gave us a better chance to win in the coaches minds. You and me and everybody else watch the games but we can only see so much. We don't know who works the hardest or knows the most about the game. As fans we reserve the God given right to piss and moan about how John Doe should be starting over Joe Blow. Sometimes John Doe does get a chance to play and we end up begging the coach do give us back our Blow. We have to be careful what we wish for sometimes.

But seriously gandhi, do you really think that Strief is a better football player than Brown? If Strief is so great then how come he isn't starting at RT over Stinch?

Re: Whats wrong with Brown?
 

Still, nice work. This is very informative thread.

I like this:

This seems to the content of most our discussions. Though slightly more interesting than mere "pissing and moaning," I often think that is just about what it amounts to.

I'm still unsure about the strength of this:

This argument is too strong. Since we fans can never actually change the starters and see what happens, there is nothing more for anyone to say when this argument is given.

That is, what is someone who is making an argument for the replacement of a starter supposed to say to that? Further, doesn't it just amount to guessing at the psychology of the coach at that point (e.g. Payton just doesn't like Joe Blow...)?

Of course, I think that the coaches picks for starters reflect some information regarding the player, but I think that it is a fundamental presupposition of our discussions that the coach's decision isn't ALL the information - e.g. the coach could be wrong.

Interesting, interesting, interesting.

PS - I like the evidence from the games against Rice and Peppers. This is certainly not conclusive, but it certainly is worth consideration in any Brown-Strief comparison.