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Explain it to me...
I can't keep up with all these threads anymore, so here's what I'm asking:
All you optimists - I don't care about special teams or the offense. I just want to try to understand why you believe that the defense will improve this season. Go ahead, throw out team speed. Talk about Venturi's incredible scheme... er... uh... lay it out there for me. B/c right now I hear analysts, "experts", and even the Vegas bookies talking about how the defense didn't get any better. I've witnessed with my own eyes their inability to stop the pass, and I've watched over the last three seasons as basically EVERY SINGLE move the Saints made on defense blow up in our face - Glover, Johnson, Hand, Jackson, moving Clemons to MLB, Bellamy, Hodge... etc. So where exactly is this optimism coming from other than thin air? Really? Where? |
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I\'m only speaking for me. I say let\'s give them a chance. At least let them play one real game. I am stating I don\'t know how they are going to do. You, on the other hand, have already passed judgement based off of \"whatever\" and trying to pass them off as facts. You have no facts. Just predictions.
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Here\'s my take on why I think they\'ll be better than last year. Because after watching last years games I can\'t honestly see how they could possibley be worse. If for no other reason once a back gets past our line at least we MIGHT have to speed to catch up with them and stop them. I know this sounds trite but think about it, it\'s True. I hate looking at the defense this way but how else can you look at it. I think you have to give them a shot, then pull out their finger nails.
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they are who they are who dat..........i am going with gut on this one as i\'ve said in the past......even if they blew everyone away in pre season, i\'d still have my doubts....i am going with luck to provide the total package.......and i believe they have the best chance they have ever had.........ever..............disagree with that........smitty
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WARNING! The following post contains the SoGood virus. If contracted you may spread it.
[Edited on 27/8/2003 by SaintNik] |
Explain it to me...
Speed - Yeah, I know you want to hear something other than, but I figured I would get this out of the way first. Pretty simple! Team speed allows for closing in on opponent sooner. Chasing down ball from weakside, backside, or strongside, with multiple players converging before play otherwise develops to its fullest potential. See other benefits below.
Experience - Players such as Hodge and Grant saw starting action last year for first time, Hodge as 2nd year player and Grant as a rookie. Darren Smith is a student of the game. He played solid at MLB during 2000 playoff campaign. Will be the defensive QB on field while alternating with Ruff. Corners Ambrose, Carter, and Thomas have seen it all before. 2nd year DBs Craver and Mitchell have that 1st year behind them as well. Jones is a seasoned safety. Howard can dominate at times. Grady Jackson is still overweight but has played quick and can dominate his opponent also. Kenny Smith and Willie Whitehead have been in the system several years and will rotate and play their roles as well. Sullivan will get his chance to make plays, but if he can\'t, he will do his share of watching Ford and others get the job done. Depth - Some of what was said above applies here. Let\'s break it down. We are deeper than ever a DL as evidenced by ability to trade Chase. Bellamy, a starter the past few seasons, has seen his role changed to special teams player, player/coach, and relief duty. DBs that saw starting playing time last year due to injury, such as Brown, Craver, and Hawthorne, will benefit by that experience in spot duty and special packages. Carter and Thomas can stick with their man when called upon to play man as good as anybody. Ambrose will fight for starting or rotating playing time. The LBs are battling for starting spots. Depth will be proven when you see another trade or our final cut players being signed by other teams. Coaching/Schemes - Venturi has been bashed by the masses so far. What we have seen has been vanilla base defense, straight up pass rushing, soft zone defensive coverages. When the real bullets begin to fly you will see defensive linemen stunting and looping, dog blitzing by all LBs from different spots, zone blitzing, safety and corner blitzes, man to man coverage at times when blitzing, and watch how much tighter the coverage gets by the corners as the season progresses. Speed and athleticism by the players will allow for this. Improvement - If only the defense improves to 15th - 20th in the league and offense and special teams play at same level as last year we will be a much better team with a few extra wins. With Dallas and Jacksonville on schedule at year end, don\'t expect Decenber slide to continue. |
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You must only want to hear the negative analysts. EVERY MOVE? Glover: Wanted too much money, but probably your best example Johnson: Is he in jail yet? I hear analysts, \"experts\" say he was the real problem in the locker room Hand: Had a good season followed by a bad season. After a bad season we let him go. How exactly is that blowing up in our face? Clemmons: Terrible inside, but he was no Pat Swilling on the outside either. Bellamy: He was brought in at barely the league minimum just to patch some holes at depth. He ended up starting, how is that blowing up in our face? Hodge: Disappointment last year, if he was cut this week 30 teams would try to claim him. Darren Howard, Charles Grant, Fred Thomas (near league minimum), Johnathan Sullivan, Cie Grant... Hardly moves that have blown up in our face. I\'ll make it plain and simple, Last year we were slow and weak. This year we have better players at every position we addressed. Only a true Saint pessimist could look at 3 preseason games and say all the moves we made over the last 3 years have blown up in our face. Especially after Ditka, many of the analysts \"experts\" said we basically had less talent than any team in the league, and some predicted worst record in the league, DFL at #31. |
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Some of it has to do with commments like these :
From the Times Picayune: WORTH REPEATING: \"He\'s the best defensive-minded coach I\'ve ever been around. He knows the game. He\'s a good coach and we\'ll be fine on defense.\" -- Haslett on recent fan and media criticism of the Saints\' defense under defensive coordinator Rick Venturi. For your review , here are Venturi\'s qualifications : 1968-1972 - Assistant Coach at Northwestern Under head coach Alex Asage, the team goes 19-33 during Venturi\'s employment. 1968: 1-9 1969: 3-7 1970: 6-4 1971: 7-4 1972: 2-9 1973-76 - Assistant Coach at Purdue Alex Asage must like Rick very much, because he brought him along for another magical mystery tour that yielded an 18-25-1 result. 1973: 5-6 1974: 4-6-1 1975: 4-7 1976: 5-6 1977 - Assistant Coach at Illinois The team goes 3-8. 1978-1980 - Head Coach at Northwestern Rick returns to his alma mater and amounts a superlative 1-31-1 record as a thank you. 1982-1993 - Assistant and Interim Head Coach with the Colts The Colts go 50-93 during Rick\'s tenure... 1982: 0-8-1 (Total Yardage Defensive ranking: 24th) 1983: 7-9 (23rd) 1984: 4-12 (22nd) 1985: 5-11 (18th) 1986: 3-13 (25th) 1987: 9-6 (6th during the strike season) 1988: 9-7 (15th) 1989: 8-8 (25th) 1990: 7-9 (26th) 1991: 1-15 (1-10 as head coach) (21st) 1992: 9-7 (24th) 1993: 4-12 (27th) 1994-1995 - Assistant Coach with the Browns 1994: 11-5 (8th) 1995: 5-11 (24th) 1996-2002 - Assistant with Saints 1996: 3-13 (1-7 as head coach) (13th overall but 27th against the run) 1997: 6-10 (6th) 1998: 6-10 (16th) 1999: 3-13 (20th) 2000: 10-6 (11th) 2001: 7-9 (19th) 2002: 9-7 (28th) |
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What has Venturi\'s record been the last three years with the Saint?
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http://nusports.ocsn.com/sports/m-fo...bl-yrbyyr.html
Looks like Dennis Green couldn\'t get it done at NorthWesten either and he was a pretty good coach. All your stats just prove that Venturi has been with some terrible programs. NorthWestern University: Year by Year Records 1973 4 7 0 John Pont 1974 3 8 0 John Pont 1975 3 8 0 John Pont 1976 1 10 0 John Pont 1977 1 10 0 John Pont 1978 0 10 1 Rick Venturi 1979 1 10 0 Rick Venturi 1980 0 11 0 Rick Venturi 1981 0 11 0 Dennis Green 1982 3 8 0 Dennis Green 1983 2 9 0 Dennis Green 1984 2 9 0 Dennis Green 1985 3 8 0 Dennis Green 1986 4 7 0 Francis Peay 1987 2 8 1 Francis Peay 1988 2 8 1 Francis Peay 1989 0 11 0 Francis Peay 1990 2 9 0 Francis Peay 1991 3 8 0 Francis Peay 1992 3 8 0 Gary Barnett 1993 2 9 0 Gary Barnett 1994 3 7 1 Gary Barnett 1995* 10 2 0 Gary Barnett 1996* 9 3 0 Gary Barnett 1997 5 7 0 Gary Barnett 1998 3 9 0 Gary Barnett [Edited on 27/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1] |
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To quote you Billy ,
Looks like Dennis Green couldn\'t get it done at NorthWesten either and he was a pretty good coach. All your stats just prove that Venturi has been with some terrible programs. All those stats like you said prove Venturi has been with some terrible programs , they only show he has never made one better . ;) Welcome to the light ........... |
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The Colts 1986: 3-13 (25th) 1988: 9-7 (15th) In one year with the Saints he took them from 20th to 11th. If he did it once, maybe he can do it this year? 1996-2002 - Assistant with Saints 1999: 3-13 (20th) 2000: 10-6 (11th) I can see the light. It\'s right there at the end of the tunnel. Let me put on my shades.. :cool: |
Explain it to me...
In one year with the Saints he took them from 20th to 11th. If he did it once, maybe he can do it this year?
1996-2002 - Assistant with Saints 1999: 3-13 (20th) 2000: 10-6 (11th) I can see the light. It\'s right there at the end of the tunnel. Let me put on my shades.. The light you are seeing here is Ron Zook .... :cool: Glad you noticed what a real defensive coordinator can do ...... ;) |
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Saintz08-
I guess with logic like that- then you can wipe out all those other stats you posted about his coaching when he was an assistant, because if he doesn\'t get the credit for being an assistant, then he sure shouldn\'t get the blame. I went back to last year on this board and read some of the heated debates between- You, WhoDat, and saintsfan- and you and Whodat have been so wrong in the past that I don\'t think you\'ll ever see the light. :P It\'s funny really. What some of you said then is just the opposite of what your saying now. :mad: I can certainly understand saintsfan frustration trying to get y\'all to see the light-but it\'s no use- the hate really does have you blinded. You guys are like the \"THREE BLIND MICE\" Well two of you are blind- Saintsfan knows what\'s happening [Edited on 27/8/2003 by BillyCarpenter1] |
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:P
LOL Thanks for the props BC. If ya can\'t make \'em see the light at least ya can give \'em hell! |
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2000: 10-6 (11th) Zook
2001: 7-9 (19th) Venturi 2002: 9-7 (28th) Venturi Kinda says it all ;) |
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we had a lot more defensive talent in 2000 than we have had the last two years
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Interesting analysis :
New Orleans Saints - Cornerback The Saints don\'t seem to think this is a problem area. Everyone expected the team to select a cornerback early on draft day. After seeing all the draft commentary, coach Jim Haslett repeatedly went on the air to explain that the team\'s situation at cornerback was fine and that they had no intentions of drafting a player at the position. It would be interesting to know if he still agrees with that statement. Dale Carter has one starting job all wrapped up, but he hasn\'t been a full-season starter since the mid-90s. He will turn 34 this season. Thirty-three-year-old Ashley Ambrose was brought in to be the other starter, but he lost his spot in training camp to Fred Thomas. Thomas is limited physically at 5-9, but he is quick enough to cover most receivers. He has problems, though, when he is matched up with the super-tall, possession-type receivers. Thomas, as well as Ambrose, has been injury-prone in recent years. ------------------------ |
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So the who do you blame for that? The players because they are less talented? This isn\'t a volunteer staff, the front office got rid of who they wanted to and brought in who they wanted to. If the talent level declines then it must be the fault of management and people involved in personnel decisions.
Just like they get credit for and we hive five for them getting guys like Brooks, Pathon, Horn and drafting talents like Deuce and Donte, they must also take the flack for creating an inferior defensive group. Whether that be through personnel changes or defensive gameplanning, the front office bites that bullet all the same. |
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One note...
Tweeky, I could be wrong but... you said \"Darren Howard, Charles Grant, Fred Thomas (near league minimum), Johnathan Sullivan, Cie Grant... Hardly moves that have blown up in our face.\" Howard and Thomas were here BEFORE Haslett. That shortens your list to Grant, b/c Sullivan and Cie haven\'t seen a snap so they cannot count yet. Oh, and Clemons led the team in tackles and sacks two years ago. Something Pat Swilling NEVER did. I like Pat, but he played great on a great defense. Clemons played great on a very bad defense. He didn\'t ask to go inside, the coaches put him there. Then they were too small to admit they f-ed up and got rid of him rather than moving him back out where he belongs!!!! Stupid!! And one other thing. I\'ve said time and again that I hope I\'m wrong about the defense. I haven\'t said that I am sure that they will suck (got that billy?). I am saying that all signs point that way right now in my mind, but that\'s not to say that I\'m not hopeful - I\'m just more realistic than I am hopeful. |
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WhoDat,
I got it. So what you\'re saying now is that you don\'t know how the defense is going to do? Which is what I\'ve said all along. I\'m glad we got that cleared up.... :o |
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I\'ll give you Clemons was much better outside than inside, and they probably shouldn\'t have moved him inside. So yeah, bad move. But to say every move has blown up in their face is a bit overboard. By the way, I hope that moving Cie Grant into the middle doesn\'t have the same result that the Clemons move did. Although he\'d be perfect on the inside in a 3-4 defense. Hmmmm!!!! I\'m curious, does anyone else think they may be going to a 3-4 next year? Perhaps deal Howard for a 3-4 type DL. Grant, Sullivan, and another 3-4 type DL with Kenny Smith backing up all 3? All we need is a Vaughn Johnson type MLB, and damn, we gots us a 3-4! Just a little suspicious. I know its a bit out there, but it did cross my mind. |
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ins...lcons_defense/
I\'ve said in the past that players make a great denfense not schemes and this article supports that. That\'s why I think the Saints defense will be better this year. We have much more talent on defense. FLOWERY BRANCH, Ga. -- If Wade Phillips\' memory serves him correctly, once upon a time in the NFL, 26 of the league\'s then 28 teams employed the 3-4 defensive scheme. That was 20 years ago, in the early 1980s, when he was the New Orleans Saints\' up-and-coming defensive coordinator on his father\'s coaching staff. But in football as on Wall Street, fads fade, trends reverse and almost everything falls prey to cyclical forces. Maybe that\'s why Phillips all but shrugs at the notion that the 3-4 is making a bit of a comeback this season, with appropriately enough, three or four teams (depending on Baltimore\'s level of long-term commitment) planning to employ the 3-4 -- up from last year\'s lone practitioner, Pittsburgh. Phillips, in his first season as Atlanta\'s defensive coordinator, is in the midst of turning the Falcons on to the wonders of using three linemen and four linebackers in their base defense. Tough selling job, considering that 30 of 31 NFL teams didn\'t see fit to field such a formation a year ago? \"Not hardly,\" Phillips said last week, taking a timeout from the Falcons\' two-day minicamp, their last dress rehearsal before the July 25 opening of training camp. \"Because this team was at the bottom with the 4-3. They were looking for something new. Players take to it pretty easy in that situation. \"Sure, there were a lot of teams playing the 4-3 in recent years. But a lot of them were losing with it, and this team was one of them. You\'ve got to look at that. Most of the teams that have played the 3-4 recently, like Pittsburgh and us in Buffalo, have done pretty well with it.\" It\'s not that Phillips fancies himself the game\'s great apostle of the 3-4, preaching its virtues far and wide. It\'s just that he puts his faith in the numbers, and the numbers support it in Atlanta. Add them all up, he says, and the bottom line spells 3-4. \"They were 31st in pass defense, 30th against average per rush, and 30th overall in defense,\" Phillips said of the 2001 Falcons. \"So there was a lot that needed improving. And then we have more linebackers who can play than we do linemen. And that\'s a factor. To play a four-man line, you don\'t have to have four guys. You really have to find seven guys who can play and rotate them. \"Well we\'ve got eight or nine linebackers on this team right now who can play. So it just makes sense for us to go to the 3-4.\" Categorize the Falcons\' switch to the 3-4 anyway you want -- desperation or inspiration on the behalf of head coach Dan Reeves -- it\'s hard to quibble with Phillips\' track record in turnaround situations. In his most recent two defensive coordinator jobs, Phillips made an immediate impact. In 1989, he took over a Broncos defense that had slumped badly the year before and had it ranked No. 1 in the AFC in fewest points allowed that season. By 1991, Denver\'s 3-4 defense led the conference in 12 different categories. Reeves, who hired Phillips in Denver 13 years ago, would take a repeat of that scenario in a heartbeat. Phillips worked roughly the same magic in Buffalo in 1995, coaching a unit that wound up with an NFL-high 49 sacks. The Bills that season also boasted the league\'s defensive most valuable player, converted outside rush linebacker Bryce Paup, who led the NFL in sacks with 17 1/2. Named Buffalo\'s head coach in 1998, Phillips\' defense ranked sixth, first and third overall in his three seasons on the job. But the Falcons aren\'t guaranteed the same type of success just because Phillips has arrived with his favorite scheme in tow. Schemes are fine. But it remains to be seen whether Phillips has the right pieces to make the 3-4 work. \" What I\'ve learned is that the defensive scheme doesn\'t make as much difference as the personnel,\" he said. \"And once you get the personnel, what do you do with it? If you lose, it\'s usually because you don\'t have enough great players. I\'d like to think it\'s coaching and that I can do this or that. And I think coaching makes a difference. I wouldn\'t be in it if I thought you just sponsored them. \"But good players make the biggest difference. We need to get some more good players, and then maybe have some guys who are here flourish in the new system. Those kind of things can happen. They have in the past.\" He didn\'t say so, but I got the feeling that Phillips, like the rest of us, still has more questions than answers when it comes to how the Falcons will take to their new 3-4 look. Can team sack leader Patrick Kerney switch from left end -- where he had a career-best 12 sacks in 2001 -- to rush linebacker without turning one of the Falcons\' strengths into a potential weakness? Is 275-pound right end Brady Smith big enough to handle the a role that will be more physically taxing than that of an edge rusher? And can the undersized Ed Jasper, who isn\'t the beefy, 320-pound nose tackle that some 3-4 proponents crave, hold his own in the middle? \"You have to have speed in this defense, and I think we\'re quick enough,\" Phillips said. \"In this defense, you\'re more mobile. You\'ve got one more guy who\'s going to run to the football. But you\'re not as physical up front and that\'s what you worry about.\" Despite the unknowns, Phillips possesses an easy confidence in his system, and it shows. He believes that the 3-4 will free up the athletic Kerney and blossoming inside linebacker Keith Brooking to chase the ball and make big plays. He points out that he has won with both bulk (Ted Washington) and lighter, more mobile players in the nose tackle slot (Greg Kragen, Pat Williams), and can make do with either style. And repeatedly he lauds the combination of smart, hard-working, high-character players that Reeves has assembled in Atlanta. \"This is probably the smartest group I\'ve been around,\" Phillips said. \"So there\'s a lot you can do with them. Those type of guys, they\'re going to improve.\" If they do, thereby reversing a three-year downward trend in terms of Atlanta\'s defense (8th in the Super Bowl season of 1998, 16th in 1999, 25th in 2000 and 30th last year), Phillips and his trusty 3-4 formation will no doubt receive much of the credit. Who knows, it may even spawn another even bigger wave of that retro trend called the 3-4. \"We\'re all copycats in this league,\" said Phillips with a smile. \"There\'s nothing new in the NFL.\" Don Banks covers pro football for CNNSI.com. |
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Both Howard and Thomas were Haz\'s boys |
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