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While this is only my first post i have been reading the forum for a few months..

As for the saints draft, we all know that no matter what we think they are going to do they are not going to do it. Tom Benson is not going to shell out the money to make the franchise into the team it needs to be to win a championship. I have watched and been a saints fan as far back as I can remember, and attend several games a year.. I will be offended as a fan if they don't take a Lb or CB or even trade up to get Hall or Robinson in the first round. Now to the point...(takes me awhile) what about taking Boulware and moving him to safety, there are several picks at CB who could be solid players what about Matt Ware, Will Poole, Ahmad Carroll, and there are a few others and maybe Bob Sanders at saftey. The draft this year is so packed with players that can be solid maybe not superstars but really Carolina didn't really have a lot of big names just people that did there jobs. When FA was about to start we were all hopeful at the possibilities and nothing happend but to let a good full back get away.

[Edited on 4/8/2004 by pakowitz]

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Welcome Boccal!!!

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Welcome Boccal.

Here is your initiation with a couple of questions:

1. You said \"Tom Benson is not going to shell out the money to make the franchise into the team it needs to be to win a championship.\" Do you really think that this franchise cannot win the Championship until it gets a new owner? Presumably, you think that there is some other way to build Championship team other than with money. Is this, then, an explanation as to why the Saints don\'t spend more money in FA (banking on the cheaper, but unproven, players in the draft? If you are arguing this last point, then I think that is an explanation, but if you are saying the former, I don\'t think I really know what you\'re getting at.

2. Are you suggesting that we need a safety because we don\'t have guys who do their job at that postion? Or are you merely suggesting that we had better draft a Corner, even if there isn\'t a \"flashy\" one available?

Cheers.

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Welcome Boccal, it appears we heave several new guys on the board.
This is a pretty clean board, not much cursing, or insults toward other members.
Its a bit more mature than some of the other forums you\'ll find.
Plenty of knowledgeable guys with strong opinions.

BTTT:
1. Benson isn\'t cheap. I\'ve addressed this before and I\'ve been paying attention to it for several years.
We are consistently middle of the NFL pack is player salaries, and last year we were #1. I\'ve only been paying attention for about 3 or 4 years though. Maybe the years before he developed a reputation and hasn\'t been able to shake it.
2. I am absloutely positive of this. We will draft a LB and a CB (or 2) this year or it will be obvious to all that this FO is clueless.
There are some true safeties in this draft that can be had with a late rounder. I expect a 2nd day pick on a SS/FS. We may even acquire a 4th somehow.
Mel Mitchell is a wildcard right now, and there is NO ONE behind Jones that doesn\'t scare me.
Harper appears to be an interesting prospect. He looked good at times last year, but also looked lost at times. I doubt he\'s ready yet.
3. I totally disagree that the only thing we did in FA was let a good FB get away.

1. We signed the consumate role player at DT. A perfect fit for theis developing D-line. They drafted Sully to be a 2-gapper and now he is. Bryant is a pefect DT for the 3 technique.
2. We signed a FB with every bit the skills T-rex had. He\'s just older.
3. We signed a former stud WR who appears to be fully recovered. If so he\'ll be an excellent 4th WR and could easily fill in a few starts if one of our WR\'s goes down.
4. We signed a solid OG, which will allow Bentley to move to center and Holland and Jacox/Nesbit to play guards. Our interior line just shot up the power scale. 3rd and one will be much easier now.
5. We signed a fantastic back-up to Deuce. He can take 7-10 snaps a game which will prevent Deuce from wearing out. I don\'t want Deuce to become our Earl Campbell. Stecker is also a ST demon. It just wasn\'t a sexy signing.
The only thing we didn\'t do was sign a CB/LB. Just because we didn\'t doesn\'t mean we didn\'t do anything. We just didn\'t address them, YET. I\'m disappointed we didn\'t sign a CB or LB, but I\'m glad we didn\'t pay a B corner A-plus money.
We did address both positions last year, just not with the players we all hoped for.

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Alright here we go...this is for you Jkool

By saying Tom Benson was cheap, I mean he and the front office always seem to try and do the same thing that the raiders are doing, going with older players that ARE past there prime and them pay less thinking that they may have one or two good years left.. (ex. Dale Carter never would have lived up to his hype and his career his over)Signing Sam Gash is an move that i feel we will regret, I will be surprised If he makes it through the season. Tom is a car sales man and runs the saints with the same mentality. Instead of taking the time and effort trying make the Voodoo into a contender. So to answer it simply after 20 years of ownership and only 1 playoff victory, I think we could use a new owner, some fresh blood to chase after.

And no I\'m not saying that it doesn\'t take money to win, it does and lots of it, but at the same time do you think that we could just get some people that actually could and wanted to play. Like just say Right now or LB aren\'t that great what about Ian Gold he is better than what we have and can be a solid play all the time not for just one or two plays.

And about the saftey question: Think of how good we would be at the safty position if we still had Sammy Knight and Tbuc that position would be set. And no I\'m not saying that we should draft a corner no matter who it is. What I am saying is that if we can trde up to get either Hall or Robinson for a reasonable price then we should. If not we should take the best available LB and then Look to CB.

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Thanks for the welcome Danno I\'m glad that this is a mature group that can handle differences of opinions. (Is that correct grammer). There are a few points that you replied to that I agree with you on and the of course those that I disagree on.

1. No matter whats said Tom Benson is cheap
2.Would you have traded T-Rex for Sam Gash?
3. WR at the number 4 spot are a dime a dozen
4. OG I\'m glad that we added some depth
5.If Stecker turns out to be a good back thats great...I hope he will boost the ST
6. DT I am happy with that move..Good player to add that DOES THE JOB HE IS PAID TO DO.

with the whole CB and LB in FA there were some good soild young corners that we could have made an offer on and tried to land for reasonable price. Still Ian Gold sits out there (which is good)that we could make an offer to. So I have been watching the saints since the day Tom Benson bought them Its time for a change.

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Boc-

Would you ahve traded T-Rex for Bryan Johnson...
The Saints wanted to, just sometimes plans don\'t work out.

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frankeefrank

If its not broke don\'t fix it...The run game for the saints was fine

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Boccal, I gotta disagree with you on that one, I think the running game did need some fixing for this year.

Yeah, Deuce put up huge numbers and had a great season, but it seemed that an awful lot of the time our O was unable to convert 3rd and 1s.... or 4th and inches.

Not converting these plays reflects on our interior line and fullback, not on Deuce.

Having a fullback like Bryan Johnson, who can run, block and catch would of helped to freeze up the D, and convert these plays. Defence, without hesitation, were able to key in on T-Rex last year, because they knew he was solely a lead blocker.

Unfortunately, we weren\'t able to get Bryan Johnson. Luckily though, we had already signed Sam Gash as insurance, and the fullback position wasn\'t significantly downgraded.

So while our run game certainly didn\'t need a serious overhaul, you can\'t be upset because the FO tried to fine tune it a bit.

[Edited on 7/4/2004 by Cadillac]

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We were terrible in short yardage. O-line or FB. I\'ve heard arguments for both.
We had no goal line back(FB) to save wear & tear on the franchise.
We had no FB to catch and run with the dump-off.
Our FB didn\'t play ST
Our FB has a bad back that could go any minute.
2003 was the 1st year Smith wasn\'t mentioned as a position to upgrade. If he was so great, how come we tried to replace him in 2000 with Norris?
If losing a \"B-plus\" one-dimensional fullback actually hurts this team in 2004, we have much bigger problems than I care to mention.
I\'ll take 1 Fred Beasley for every 5 T-Rex\'s

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Hahaha wow, well weren\'t we on the same page.

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It appears you haven\'t lost that trigger finger Billy. ;)

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Hahahaha.... um... I\'m actually not Billy though.

My name\'s Trent, I\'m a University Student up here in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada.

I thought Billy was \"DatWho\"?

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So will you guys feel the same if Gash goes down to injury during training camp? T-Rex Crushed defenders and made them alter the paths when trying to get to duece....How do we know that T-Rex was so bad with the ball....he probably had a better Catch to Drop ratio than our receivers..but they never gave him the ball..Now I think we should get a FB in the later rounds of the draft just not B. Johnson from Auburn


(I like being able to share an opinion without someone getting angry this is a great forum)

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Not following this statement? How would it be different if Gash went down or if T-Rex went down?

Living up north, I see a lot more Bills games than I ever see Saints games, and Gash is the same type of player as T-Rex. The only differences between those two are Gash can catch the ball (advantage Gash), and T-Rex is younger (advantage T-Rex). That\'s about it. I also don\'t think that Gash is a long term solution, but he will do just fine for the next couple of years.

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Now don\'t get me wrong I hope Gash will come in and not leave a noticable hole and knocks the paint off peoples helments. but his age and all the punishment he has taken bothers me (ex Ernie Conwell)

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Look, I have seen every training camp practice (I worked it) in 2002 and T-Rex can\'t catch to save his life. Trust me, I have seen in person.

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Boc,

I agree that money is not the only factor in winning; here we are on the same page then.

I wonder why you say this: \"And no I\'m not saying that it doesn\'t take money to win, it does and lots of it, but at the same time do you think that we could just get some people that actually could and wanted to play.\" Do you think we have guys who don\'t want to play? You alluded to this a few times here; who are these guys who don\'t want to play on our team? It is also not clear to me, except for perhaps at LB, that the guys we have aren\'t capable of playing their positions. No one sticks out in my mind as someone who isn\'t qualified to do their job on our team - of course we could upgrade, but no one comes to mind who is truly pathetic.

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JKOOL

The point being made here is at the LB position with the reguards that Our LB\'s aren\'t that great so how hard do you think an average player would have to work to get a starting spot on this team? Me ....not very, now I hear that Grant has potential but so did Allen and he has yet to step up...So that leads me to believe that either he don\'t want to or he can\'t earn a starting position (lack of talent?). Well we all know that any receiver that the secondary went up against that was a good receiver they had problems with. In my personnal opinion we have some paycheck players.

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Actually, Billy is Whodat. ;)

LOL

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Not funny at all Saintfan. Not funny at all.

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Grant was injured most of the year and is undersized. Allen failed to earn a starting position over Hodge, Rogers, and Smith, which, in my mind, means he sucks. I agree that here there is a need for improvement. Your comment just seemed to imply that there were many guys who didn\'t want to play (or couldn\'t), but if you just meant LBs, then I suppose I don\'t totally disagree.

What does this (\"Well we all know that any receiver that the secondary went up against that was a good receiver they had problems with\") mean? Does it mean you think member of our secondary don\'t want to or cannot play?

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I disagree about Grant. 6-0\", 240lbs isn\'t undersized
Allen was what a 4th round choice? In his 2nd year? Its too early to apply the SUCKs tag to him.
Allen\'s problem appears to be that he\'s more suited for the SLB. It takes less thinking and more aggressiveness than the WLB. It was rumored last year that he may replace Hodge there. Maybe a full camp of learning the SAM may allow him to blossom. It has been rumored he has struggled with the mental reads required of a WLB.

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The only productive corner we had was fred and to think that he is a step above the rest on the team, puts serious questions in my mind. Craver = no good, Brown = practice squad. The team will improve greatly by having a soild Lb crew..it will take some of the pressure off the CB and then we will see what we have. So my thought on the draft is this If we can get hall or robinson get them if not take a LB then CB then since we see that mitchel will not be ready again this season I say we take Bob Sanders a S with our 2b pick......What do you think?

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Safety is not a concern for me. Bellamy played well if you ask me (amazing as it may seem) and I think Victor Green is a capable backup if need be.

Our CBs on the other hand, are flat bad. Thomas is a guy I like, but let\'s face it, he doesn\'t have the same stuff now that he had two years ago. Ambrose seems older, slower, and less impactful than Thomas. I think he could have a hard time being a nickel guy in a good number of places and he\'s our starter. Fahkir Brown I will say I like. I\'m optimisitc about that kid. He made some strides last season. If he can keep it up he\'ll be a starter on our rag-tag group before long. After that, who have we got? A backup to a backup that we just gave a 5th rounder away to sign. One of those guys gets hurt (which considering age and the relative health of our secondary over the last two seasons seems to be a certainty), and we\'re screwed. Draft CBs Haslett. CB, LB, CB, WR, CB, FB, CB, CB, LB, CB, CB, CB, CB.... I thin kthat may have been one or two too many picks. ;)

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Alright.

Danno, I must have misremembered reports of Grants size. Point taken. I will continue to insist though that being unable to unseat Hodge = sucks. I am willing to take a wait and see approach to this (ie this year is his last chance, and he\'d better produce on ST), but after two years Allen has not been able to show us anything at the team\'s weakest position.

Boc, I\'m still unclear what your obsession with getting a S is? I agree with WhoDat (frighteningly) - we\'re fine there. Also, someone tried to convince members here that Ambrose could be moved to S if necessary. I\'m not sure I agree, but with serious needs at CB and MLB (in my opinion much more important positions to fill, given our current set of players), a S would be a quite questionable pick.

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You remembered right Jkool, he was 225 when we drafted him. But he had the frame to put on more weight without suffering performance. He came to camp at 240. I personally think he put it on too fast, which resulted in the muscle pulls and strains he suffered last year. With a full off-season of training at 240 that should decrease.

I do like getting a SS in the draft. But maybe in the 3rd or 4th if we can deal ourselves a 4th. A true safety is kinda like a FB. Even good ones slip to the middle rounds. It was reported that Mitchell may not be healed enough to play at 100% this year (or maybe ever). Bellamy is getting older. A late round safety would need a year to develop (like Mitchell did) so why not get one now.

I like Schweigert or Sanders in the 3rd. What happens if Bellamy goes down? Little Victor Green? He\'s a little FS isn\'t he?

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Well I think we need a saftey...The old and cripple that we have at the position is a concern....I will agree with Danno about waiting till the 3rd

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How can you justify this statement, you\'ve only seen him start in one game, and he did fairly well, all things considered.
Safety will need to be addressed at some point, whether it be in the draft or June 1st cuts. You don\'t lose Green, not have your projected starter, and only a backup remaining, going into the season. I disagree with WhoDat for once- amazing it took this long...too bad he might change his tune knowing that Green is not on the roster.

[Edited on 9/4/2004 by BlackandBlue]

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Brown would be on the practice squad of alot of team would you disagree with that ?

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I don\'t know. I haven\'t seen enough of him. What I did see in that one game was a guy that tried to make plays, and I respect that. I\'m sure there are a few teams that might designate him to the ps, but the Saints are far from being one of them.

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Yeah your right....But does that help us or hurt us to have a team where a PS player is on the gameday roster and we don\'t try to better that position more a aggressively ?

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That would be a ridiculous question, you always try to better your team, at every position, if the ability to do so is there. But with our current situation, he is the 3rd-4th best CB on this team.

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Well we are debating apples to apples here..how can you better your team by allowing young free agent corners to go in the first two weeks of Fa without even an offer? That makes no sense to me, maybe to the rest of you but not to me..I know that you are gonna come back with the whole \"why pay A money for a B or C corner\". Well there were corners that went at reasonable prices

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You won\'t get an argument from me on that one, I agree 100%. I was very sad to see us not even interview some of the FA CB\'s that were available.