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Somewhat ironic is the Saints continue to collect draft picks (2005) when as an organization they fail to use them properly(2004). What is the sense in this!
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they had a good draft in 2004... got great value with the picks.
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By all accounts of individuals who study the draft for a living...the Saints were graded at best a C. That would be \"average\". Management not drafting for need and using the excuse \"best player available\" is a cop out. IMO.
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well there is your first problem... you shouldn\'t think inside the box and draft just on needs. The players the Saints wanted were simply not there so you go best available or trade back... Will Smith can play LB and is a great person all-around. 18th pick he was a steal. The second problem you have is listening to all the people who study the draft... hell I studied the draft also... I would have done somethings different but I don\'t let that interfere with me grading the Saints draft picks. What the Saints have done was grab 3 studs in the first 2 rounds and another second rounder for next year. You can get studs in the first 2 rounds to come in and play day one. Usually harder to find players who can contribute day one in the later rounds. Best FB in the draft HELLO...
The only position they didn\'t draft that everyone wanted them to draft was CB and you can argue all you like but the saints are loaded at CB. They are fine... they need to stop the run and put pressure on the QB first and formost. You can have the best CB in the league but give the qb a day and a half and he will connect. I also do feel the Saints will be bringing in a cb including resigning Carter is still an option. [Edited on 27/4/2004 by Euphoria] |
Draft picks..........
Being on a Saints site I would judge that you are not by any stretch of the imigination impartial. Those individuals who do this for a living have nothing to gain to pronounce one teams draft over another better. Heck, I am a Saints fan, and I am NOT impartial when it comes to evaluating the Saints. However, I do have an opinion.
Please spare me with the \"studs\" reference as they have yet to play a down in the NFL. As you are accutely aware, what faces these draft choices will not be like college. A stud in college can often be referred to as a \"project\" in the NFL. I am not saying anything you already do not realize. The FB you refer to has not picked up a blitizing LB in the NFL...forget the best of the best! He does appear to have good hands, but is not the swiftest in the lot. |
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This is the classic arguement , value of a pick or need for the team .
Here is the breakdown : Value of the pick : If you are drafting for the New England Patriots and a player falls to you , the value of the pick is a great reason to pick him . A talented core of players all ready in tact with no exposed needs . A GM can take a player and work with him and have the luxury to say he was great value and we could not pass him up even if the position is talent loaded . Need for the team : If you are drafting for the New Orleans Saints and have just come off an 8-8 season , with holes the size of the Hindenberg in your defense , the value of the pick scenario should not apply here because back loading a position means you still have these huge holes . It really does not matter how much depth you have at a certain position if the offense has the ability to work around it .The example of this is if the defensive line is getting in too fast and a team has a weak secondary or clueless linebacker core , the offense just runs a no huddle or shifts into shot gun formation and works around the defensive pressure . Saints play the Falcons twice , if Vick is healthy and the Saints are able to shut down a run game initially , Vick will shot gun formation and throw all day long . Are the Saints current secondary ready to stop Vick on a Pass Fest ???? If the answer turns out to be no , how much value was that pick ???.... ;) |
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I am not giving the Saints an A for the draft... but they did the best they could do with what was happening. Everyone you had an eye on is gone, would you take 3-4 rated player at there position at 18? (players who need developing maybe) Trade down, get extra picks but that isn\'t fixing holes... Ahhhh, but here is a stud and a steal at 18 who we could use at LB or rotate in on DE for breathers and injuries, special teams. So you give the Saints C or D for not getting a need fixed... but you also have to give them an a or b for getting a top 10 at 18. And it hasn\'t come full circle yet... its still being played out, trades are possible its not a done deal yet. Nor have they won or lost a game yet. The Patriots had all kinds of needs at the beginning of the year all of a sudden they don\'t have a one? because they won a SB... sure. They have needs and things to address just as well as other teams... they want another SB and they have to counter what other teams or doing... they also get max use out of there players though coaching.
Sure give the Saints a C for the draft but if this plays out like it could they end up in the playoffs or better and the draft looks like an A... with 3 picks in the first 2 rounds in 2005 [Edited on 27/4/2004 by Euphoria] |
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2004 draft class > 2003 draft class.
Smith will be starting at end by mid season. He\'s the best defensive end coming out of college we\'ve ever had. EDIT: and no, I don\'t mean best defensive end on the team, that goes to Howard...for now. I think that Smith is good enough to take over for grant no later than midseason. [Edited on 27/4/2004 by BlackandBlue] |
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ok, ok i have to get involved....
i was at work when this all went down, but i still saw everything... now i know the guys we were lookin for got grabbed before we got there... but, we still could have traded up to get them, or traded down to get more picks.... we still passed good cb\'s in round 2.... i know smith is a good value pick, but how much of a value do you get if he plays 10 downs every game...... now we are in the same situation for next years draft as this years draft..... 3 picks in 2 rounds, but hey, what did we do with it this year????? mods note: sentences help!! [Edited on 4/27/2004 by pakowitz] |
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Sure I\'ll give ya... we could have traded down, that was my first thinking going into the draft thinking all the players we were keeping an eye on would be gone. But then Smith was there... a top 10 bonifide prospect looking at us in the face and you have to take it... trading down is the wrong move at that point. Smith is an every down backer... you don\'t play a guy with his athletisim 10 plays... you play him every chance you get. You look for ways to get him in on the play. We got a play-maker WR and a top 3 LB in the draft at 60 which is great value and a need... If you can fill a need and get great value ok... but if not then look at value... if that isn\'t there you trade back. We got a 2nd rounder for next year for it.
2nd round cbs were projects in the making... we needed to draft a shut down cb... it wasn\'t there plain and simple... we do not need a back up cb so why draft one. [Edited on 27/4/2004 by Euphoria] |
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Agreed. But it\'s the Henderson pick that makes me question them. We have quite a few WR. We have a top notch return man. I would have thought this was great had we dealt Stallworth, Horn or Pathon shortly after for picks/players, but we now have a plethora of WR\'s and I\'ll be pleasantly surprised if this turns out to be a good move. The local fan base will drool for him to get his shot. I just see this one as a back to back luxury pick. Smith I can live with, but this one disturbs me.
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Is it really considered value if someone buys something they already have alot of just because they could get it at a lower price on sale and add it to the collection they already have . Or is value based upon getting an item you need at the time at a lower price ??? If Haslett traded Howard for a shut down corner and started Smith , then he got great value from the pick . He got a top 10 player at the 18th pick , which allowed him to address a glaring need in the secondary . |
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The Will Smith pick in the first round was certainly acceptable, with the other four options off the board. The Henderson pick will certainly add a weapon on the offense. I hope Courtney Watson will be as good as some people say, because I still think MLB was the position we needed most.
However, Will Poole was still on the board in the 3rd round. That would have been what you call a \"value\" pick. Poole was projected as a late first or second round guy. I watched him play several times last year and he was always around the ball. Sure he wasn\'t the fastest, but to fill a need in the 3rd round with a second round player would have been true \"value\". I\'m still trying to recover from reading your \"the Saints are loaded at CB\" post. Who are you, Haslett\'s son? |
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The saints should have traded back IMO and took Gamble you have two good DE already that are still young. Trade back ....take Gamble then use your two 2nd\'s on what ever...when they traded that 2nd rd pick I turned the draft off Hasslett is an idiot and so is Micky \"The Mouse\" Dumba**. How can anyone other than the saints just totally screw up a draft that was that deep in talent at the positions they needed. And what alot of you don\'t remember i guess is the fact that they could have got a corner in FA but Haslett is stupid.....Now this is why in my \"First Post\" I said Tom Benson was nothing more than a used car sales man. The reason they did what they did in the draft is plain and simple MONEY.. Tom is Cheap and in the words of Forrest Gump \"Thats all I have to say about that\" :mad:
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Saints value chart
GRADE VALUE RATING B -3.2 PICK RANK POS PLAYER COLLEGE 18 12 DE Will Smith Ohio St 50 43 WR Devery Henderson LSU 60 70 LB Courtney Watson Notre Dame 139 128 DT Rodney Leisle UCLA 156 194 FB Mike Karney Arizona St 240 301 LB Colby Bockwoldt BYU Bockwoldt was the reach of the day ..... :o |
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I\'m a man of my word... Gandy-Big contract, some say we overpaid Brooks-Big contract, some say we overpaid Horn-Big contract extension, some say we overpaid Sullivan-Big contract, Huge signing bonus, some say we overpaid Tebucky Jones-Big contract, Big Bonus, all say we overpaid Conwell-Big contract Sloan-Big contract, in hindsight, we overpaid Thomas-Big contract (actually a bargain compared to other FA CB’s) Haslet-Big contract extension, along with his assistants. Howard-Big contract inevitable due to franchising Pathon-Big contract, some say we overpaid for a #2WR Lawyer Milloy-We wanted to match Buffalo’s Big contract Kyle Turley-Offered Big contract, signed w/ St Louis for about the same. 2003-Highest salary team in the NFL 2002-Upper 1/3 2001-middle of pack If I hear Benson is cheap one more time I’m gonna vomit my spleen. |
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Off season is a little slow ...... ;) |
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Hahahahah Danno look at the list of players you listed and Im glad that you put Haslett there. That was part of my argument. Are any of the players there, are were they ever worth the money that they were paid... I think not. So when I say TOM BENSON IS CHEAP do you think that it really pertains to just players ? FO has alot to do with player slaries no? You can take a Great coach \"Parcels\" and make a terrible team into a playoff team. So why not spend money on proven staff and stop trying to pay has been players. Look at our coaches they suck and it is a reflection on Tom Benson. No one would like to see him dance about ten times this season.... more than me, but you don\'t go get players past thier prime just because they were cheap
Gandy-Big contract, some say we overpaid - We did over pay Brooks-Big contract, some say we overpaid - Should still be on the bench (He still has to prove himself) Horn-Big contract extension, some say we overpaid- He will be prductive this year Sullivan-Big contract, Huge signing bonus, some say we overpaid We will see this year what he is made of Tebucky Jones-Big contract, Big Bonus, all say we overpaid This will be his year Conwell-Big contract OLD any was to much on him Sloan-Big contract, in hindsight, we overpaid David who ? Thomas-Big contract (actually a bargain compared to other FA CB’s) Our best corner by far(and thats bad) Haslet-Big contract extension, along with his assistants. Should not even be allowed in New Orleans Howard-Big contract inevitable due to franchising Hope they keep him, but wouldn\'t be mad If the traded for 1st round pick or a young SD CB Pathon-Big contract, some say we overpaid for a #2WR He was ok last year for #2 Lawyer Milloy-We wanted to match Buffalo’s Big contract Wish we would have Kyle Turley-Offered Big contract, signed w/ St Louis for about the same. Not as good as everyone makes him out to be (bull rush and he\'s done) I Like you Danno I really....really ..... Do Your very insightfu.......l makes this forum fun |
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I\'m SURE that the Saints entertained trading up, and I\'m also sure that teams wanted an arm and a leg for their pick. Saints stayed put and did the best thing for the organization Yeah woulda coulda shoulda....well we could\'ve traded up to get DeAngelo Hall at 7, and all it would\'ve cost us(besides our first) would be probably both of our seconds or one of the seconds and a second or lower next year. Not smart strategy when there are free agents like McKenzie and Woodson to be had. I think the Saints know something that they aren\'t telling us(like a trade scenario between a FA corner). But I may be giving the Saints FO too much credit here. |
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So why not spend money on proven staff and stop trying to pay hasbeen players. Benson\'s greatest fault lies in his trusting nature of his staff , not his wallet ..... Hasbeen hired the current staff that surrounds him . Hasbeen selects the players to sign and the players to draft . Hasbeen is a copy cat coach , that hopes to one day strike gold . Hasbeen\'s current off season plan of attack is another in a long line of copy cat manuevers emulating great teams of the past . What did he learn while watching the Super Bowl this year ? Smart players play smarter and keep your current players or they might just end up in the Super Bowl playing for your division rival ... ;) |
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You can just look at who the Saints took away from this draft, and say hmmmm, they still didn\'t fill all their needs, C.
But then you wouldn\'t be taking into account the big picture. The draft is like poker. You have to play the cards you\'re dealt. Considering how things fell for the Saints, I think they did a very good job. And they did try to move up, there was some contact with the Steelers about the 11th pick. When Roethlisberger was still there though, they weren\'t moving anywhere. To move up any higher would of cost more than an arm and a leg, it would of cost an arm, a leg, and another arm in 2005. So considering the circumstances, I think they did just fine. |
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Guys I\'m not saying we should have moved up I\'m saying we should have moved back
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Oh yeah, let\'s draft gamble, the biggest gamble at corner in the whole draft as far as value goes. He wouldn\'t have played a down this year. Ahmad Carroll would have been the best option as far as trading down goes.
I\'ll even quote my good buddy rAge on something. After the first 2 corners were gone last year, the next 3 corners draft in the late first didn\'t to didley squat their rookie year. I look at Will Smith and compare him to one person, but bigger. And that is Dwight Freeny. If the Clarett ruling would have held, one of the players we were looking at could have fell to us with Mike Williams projected to go before us also. just a thought |
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At first, I think I would have agreed that we should have moved down and picked up Gamble (in fact, I think I said that elsewhere). However, I don\'t think that Gamble actually fills a need - he won\'t be ready to play until next season. He simply doesn\'t have enough time at CB to start right away (even at the nickle spot on this team). Craft, Thomas, and Ambrose will certainly be ahead of a guy with so few starts at CB. Not to mention Brown and Craver. Getting a guy who is a question mark is NOT better than getting a proven DE who gives us options at LB, trades, and injury insurance.
Maybe they should have traded down, but not for Gamble. Until someone says who they should have moved down for, I\'m not buying that argument. Perhaps they should have taken Wilfork, but I don\'t see that as filling a need either. |
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Alright , you talked me into it I will take Carroll ....
Dropped back and taken Carroll , that works for me . His scout combine report looks good and he played tough . Ahmad Carrol Arkansas This kid did very well and might have pushed himself into the 1st round. He ran his forty well and had a 1.52 sec in the 10 yds - the second best out of the players who worked out. He has a lot to learn, but on film, he is a fighter and does not back down. Also With CB Mike McKenzie being unhappy about his contract situation, the Packers needed to find a cornerback. Carroll beat Dunta Robinson in a high school track meet and was considered by some teams to be the fastest player in the draft. He\'s tough, physical and aggressive and surprisingly was drafted before Chris Gamble as the third cornerback off the board. He\'s a shade under 5-foot-10, but with a 41-inch vertical jump, he plays bigger than his size and is suited for the Packers\' aggressive defense. [Edited on 28/4/2004 by saintz08] |
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Good answer, as usual, 08.
I\'m going to suspend judgement on this now. Only time will tell which of Smith of Carroll would have been better for us (of course, we\'ll never really know, but if Carroll performs very well elsewhere, I\'ll take that as evidence that he would have been a better selection). I certainly agree that Caroll might have been a good option (if we traded down), but for now I\'m cautiously optimistic about Smith (especially if he is capable of starting while Grant and Howard are on the field). I guess we\'ll see. |
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[quote:691efa761e]Agreed. But it\'s the Henderson pick that makes me question them. We have quite a few WR. We have a top notch return man. I would have thought this was great had we dealt Stallworth, Horn or Pathon shortly after for picks/players, but we now have a plethora of WR\'s and I\'ll be pleasantly surprised if this turns out to be a good move.
We do have a great bunch of receivers...Horn is still well above average, but 32. Stallworth may be the biggest threat this franchise has ever seen, when he is on the field. Michael Lewis was one of the best returners in the league, two years ago. Jerome Pathon made the prettiest catch of the year against the Giants, but cant be consistent. Derrick Lewis could be good, but he should have been good already. Talman Gardner should have been a second round pick last year, but he was silly enough to get busted with dope and a gun two weeks before the draft. Germaine Crowell was a stud receiver with Detroit, in the 90\'s. Hasnt been on the field consistently in three years. I think the Saints did the right thing by taking Henderson who in any other year would have been a first round pick. Thank you, RUSH TKE. |
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Danno,
I\'ve got to say that I have been pretty drunk recently (actually). I retract the \"as usual\" part from my response. Also, in retrospect, I don\'t know what I was writing - perhaps I was feeling affable. ARRRGGGGHHHH!!! RRRRRAAAAR!!!! Oh, it seems that I was posessed. Now that I have rid that demon, I don\'t know what I drinking... er, thinking (maybe the whotang?). If only one of these new guys were here to post something with no sentences and a bunch of elpises, then I might know what to do. [Edited on 2/5/2004 by JKool] |
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