Had enough? (Participation Requested)
 

There are plenty enough threads discussing details and assumptions on the Bounty/Pay for Performance topic. The overall climate I believe is that nearly everyone wants this to be over with. Maybe one way or another.

I will ask the hard question that most will have to think about, as Saints fans we are very familiar with struggle, maybe even more so that most teams due to our history with ups and down, poor records, being brow beat and called 'aints".... Hell, even "Who Dat" has been challenged.

Some factors to mull before you vote. We all know that Bounties go back at least 30 years as admitted by some retired players. We all know that other teams have done it, as admitted by multiple players on multiple teams. That being said do you honestly think we are 100% innocent or do you believe we have some culpability? Don't say "yes, but"... we all know the NFL has handled this poorly, we all know the NFLPA played its part in creating the power vacuum, all parties are guilty of going public with slanderous statements that they have yet to use face to face with each other....

How badly do you want this to go away? What are you willing to accept to make it go away?

Dam.. cant edit the Poll now. Difference between 3 and 4 is that 3 includes coaches. 4 is just players.

IMO, the worst offense the Saints are guilty of is aggravated stupidity for keeping records of whatever it is the league is saying the Saints did.

Well... can we agree that a kept record, is a kept record of "something".. No?

In my honest opinion, saying the Saints are 100% innocent... knowing this is a League systemic issue is a little too far for me to reach. Sh1t happened, the NFLPA gave Goodell his power and we are paying the price for 30 years of ignored culture. We do not deserve the punishment that we have received but nothing can be done about that. Goodell has legal power granted by the CBA with no checks in place.

The coaches are cooked, they already admitted that they were warned in 2009 and Greg Williams admitted the warning was ignored. What do we gain from a victory? A line backer near the end of his career who's productivity has fallen for two years, and a Defensive End for four games that has averaged 6 sacks for the last two seasons? If we could get coaching back then i would say it is worth it.. but we cant.

Sorry guys, Im as sick as anyone of hearing about this, but I have to pick for us to fight to the bitter end, even if we lose.

My reasoning is this.
1. Someone has to stand up to the NFL, and Goodell, and show them that you can't just make stuff up. Win or lose they need a solid punch in the nose for the good of the NFL. You have to fight the bully at some point or he never learns. Who better than the Saints to teach the NFL this historic lesson.
I would be proud of the Saints if they can make future commissioners and the NFL think twice before trying to pull of this kind of BS again.

2. I think the possibility of a ego driven, corporate moron, and mindless CEO like Goodell ever capitulating, admitting he's wrong, reducing fines, is Zero. Ive work with to many of them.

3. The more we fight, the more unity I see on the team. They are pissed, and the more unity I see with the fans. Goodell picked the wrong city to start a fight with. The NFL and Goodell are the weakest things we have had to face in our history.

4. I really don't care much how other teams fans see us in the end. But we are a great family fan base, sportsman, and worked very hard for our reputation. IT might mean nothing to Philly, but it means a lot to me. The more we fight the better we look. backing down is for wimps. At least we can always say we fought the best we could, and didn't wimp out, like other teams.

5. The tiny impossibility that the Saints would be responsible for getting Goodell fired ROCKS !!! It would make us a legion around the NFL,lol .
and set the tone for the future..Dont Mess with NO!

6. No matter how painful, its the right thing to do. Seeking the truth and fighting injustice is never bad. It isn't fun, but someone has to do it.

We can fight to the bitter end but it won't do any good.

I voted #3 because the Saints do have some culpability here in pay-for-performance, but no more then any other NFL team ... I think suspending coaches/players 2-4 games would have been enough for Goodell to get his message across ... for crissake, send a warning shot over the bow to the league before you try sinking the whole fricken' ship, Rog.

The injustice to me is the length of the suspensions, not the actual suspensions ... I don't see why Goodell couldn't modify the punishments (with the exception of Greg Williams) and still come off looking as a 'no-nonsense' commissioner.

I agree with SloMo, and I also voted 3. A 4 game suspension with a hefty fine for Sean and 4 games for the other coaches, besides GW, would have been enough, aong with 4 games for Vilma and the other players. And this would've been laid to rest. No court challenges etc. but no, Roger had to be heavy handed and now hes reaping what he has sown.

I have never been one to subscribe to cutting off my nose to spite my face. Fight it yes... but to what cost? And inevitably what gain? Our Saints are football players and do not need any distractions during the season added onto the normal stress and strain.

You forgot 1 other addition to the poll:

"Fight until we as fans lose our collective minds"

I mean, this is killing us as fans because we're just football fans for cris-sakes, not Nazi activists or conspiracy theorists.

I know so many here are tired of the issue but we have an obligation as fans to push back to an extent otherwise Goodell would simply ROLL over us.

As a team, move on
 

As a team, I think it is time to move on. Goodell will not be reversing his decision and he will not be reducing penalties. He has to preserve a zero-tolerance policy in preparation of the legal disputes to come regarding head trauma.

For the individuals who were penalized, their integrity was challenged and I encourage them to continue the fight. Plus, they may be able to prolong the process long enough to play for this season.

All in all, this isn't something we should dwell on as the season approaches. The punishments have been handed down, they're probably final, so let's start focusing on football and what we can do to win a Superbowl.

The ONLY chance for the NFL to remain anything that resembles, well, the NFL, is for the NFLPA to DEMAND that Roger Goodell be removed from his position or accept some power checks as it relates to player fines and suspensions. He simply cannot remain all powerful, because we see where that has taken us.

I know these are unprecedented times for the NFL. I know it has to focus on player safety. What I also know is the NFL needs to ensure that an honest and forthright person is in charge. Right now that is not the case.

If I didn't do what was said, why would I have to pay. Goddell needs to admit his information is wrong and apologize and retract the penalties he put on the players ( and coaches) and have a board put under his dumb a$$ to make sure he has the goods he says he has. He sux!!

Fight for what.... The suspensions have been made n they is nothin we can do about it n the players r trying to do something about it... But it's too late... Vilma should have went to see Goodell when he had a chance to do so.... I no every says it's not fair n it's not but what's done is done Sean not coming bak Vilma won't be so jus deal with it....

Pardon me if I'm missing something obvious, I live in somewhat of an NFL black hole, but what is it that the Saints organization is still doing that they need to give up? Are they representing Vilma or Smith in some way? Are they still fighting anything?

Benson apologized and gave his word that the Saints would cooperate in the investigation in any way they could. Loomis, Payton, Williams and Vitt all apologized, appealed and accepted their punishments.

The NFLPA is contesting the suspensions of the players, and Vilma has a personal slander suit against Goodell.

Are the Saints actively involved anymore?

Would this be a poll option as well ...

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...62381315_n.jpg

The severity of punishments is not for the actions of a team but for the inaction of the coaches ie, lying

Like Vitt said, "We are being punished for the spoken word, not the action"

He's right.

I'm just ready for some football!

Like they say at guantanamo bay. After months of torture you begin to like ,and even miss it.
Water board please Mr. Goodell !!!

There is no way to answer that. If their were a movement by the Saints organization to support and provide the players with assistance it would never be publicly acknowledged .

Im not. I just want to fast forward to next year when this whole damn thing is behind us and we still have a chance.

I respectfully disagree!:bng:

I agree that the suspensions of Smith & Vilma are inconsequential to the Saints success; the Saints have proven that they can survive a period with out Smith.

If Payton hadn't been so quick to issure his apology, (I have to believe that Benson had a hand in that), then the players wouldn't look like they just dropped their pants and bent over in front of Goodell.

I haven't voted yet...I'm still undecided.

Which is the premise that the league knows very well. In one hand you have coaches apologizing and admitting and accepting responsibility (they couldn't have done it with out the players)... Then you have the players (under advice from the NFLPA) refusing to cooperate fully and go to New York to talk to Goodell.

We seem to only be looking at tangible evidence as the only thing that incriminates any players. Since the coaches issue has passed and seems like it was an eternity ago.... We seem to forget the big picture.

All of the players are fighting tooth and nail to prove their innocence and that nothing happened assuming the league has no hard evidence.

If this were to go to trial and I was the Leagues attorney I would never put a player on the stand, I wouldn't have to. The first person I would put on the stand is Greg Williams, who has already admitted to basically anything that Goodell wants him to admit to. Then I would put the following people on the stand and ask the following questions:

Sean Payton: What did you take responsibility of?
Sean Payton releases statement on Bounty-Gate | KETK

Greg Williams: What are you apologizing for the involvement in?
Bountygate bombshell: Williams, Payton suspended

Mickey Loomis: What violations, and what are you taking responsibility of?
Saints release joint statement from Mickey Loomis and Sean Payton on BountyGate Charges

And while the argument can be made that Greg Williams statements could have been motivated by his desire to be reinstated.... How do you argue that two very well respected people like Payton and Loomis are clueless and nothing happened regardless of what the players claim?

For all those who think this should be fought in a court room:
If you are a member of the jury how to do you find the players innocent after their coaches publicly admit to wrong doing going on????


Payton and Loomis did what they did to "try" and keep all of this from falling on the players.... It didnt work.

Accept nothing! Go down firing & when you run outta bullets, beat 'em with the gun butt!

Heck, it ain't MY money!

If I'm a member of the jury I need to know the difference between a performance pool and a bounty. I need to know what the rules are - is a performance pool legal only if players involved and illegal if coaches participate or flat out against the rules regardless? What constitutes a bounty - and not ROGER's definition, but the true definition.

Once I know those things then I want to know what the Saints were doing, and I want proof of it. Based on what I've seen, there is pretty decent evidence that a pool of some sort was in place. Based on what I've seen there is precisely zero evidence of a bounty taking place. Not he said she said, but proof. There is none - at least none that any of the accused has seen or shared so far.

Now, if there's no bounty and if that's fairly clear (as to me it is fairly clear) then what of Roger broadcasting to the world that there IS a bounty - what damage is he doing to the target team and the target players?

And if the Saints are guilty of a performance pool they should be punished. Fairly. There is precedent of teams having been found with performance pools in operation, and so the draconian measures Roger has taken are clearly too harsh across the board.

Now I know I'm a simpleton when it comes to things like this - I'm no lawyer and I don't play one on TV, but I am most frustrated with the fact that, so far, Roger has been able to hide behind the CBA, and I along with anybody else can clearly see this is exactly what's he doing.

I want to punch Roger in the face.

What what I gather the NFL is playing a two faced card... The term Bounty resonates with the public, and performance is actually what they have all the evidence on... One is a conduct violation and detrimental to the safety of the NFL and the other is circumvention of the salary cap. Neither more legal than the other. You can get if this goes to court it will be framed as salary cap violations and conduct detrimental to the league.

They title everything Bounty to keep the ignorant public on their side, but push pay for performance (salary cap) because that is "off the field" and keeps it all in Goodells hands.

Having the coaches accept responsibility with out defining weather it was bounty or performance does not help the players at all.

We all want the evidence to come out... and stop with the he said...she said... However you do not need the actual murder weapon to get a conviction in a court of law.. Only a first hand eye witness to give testimony... Enter Greg (I will do anything to get my job back) Williams.

Which I would then argue the man has an agenda and would certainly lie to get his job back therefore his testimony is worthless. I suspect this is also true for Roger's other 'sources' which is why he is so adamant about keeping them hidden.

The "agenda card" can be iffy and has to be carefully played. In the case of Big Tobacco, it could have been said that the class action lawsuits were not intended to make cigarettes safer but to put big tobacco out of business. pretty much the SAME EXACT argument is being played now... Goodells actions are not to make the game safer but to put players out of business...

The problem with all of this is that neither you nor I will be on the jury, I dare say 75% of the jury pool will not truly understand how football is actually played. They will be females and elderly that think it is a violent game that needs to be safer and they do understand safety... Its a crap shoot. Screw around and get an Atlanta Falcons fan (I am sure there is 1 in all of New Orleans) on the jury and good luck with anything.

In Vilma vs Goodell for defamation and slander it makes a good case as slanderous comments in the public media hav no positive intent... problem is that Vilma lawsuit is against Goodell personally and if won will reap a monetary award for Vilma, but will not address suspensions etc...

Keep in mind something else, Vilma is risking never playing football again if he loses. The CBA does not have verbiage allowing him to sue Goodell in open court. In fact his suit is in violation of that contract as he is not going through arbitration.

The NFL is not alone in policy like this... Large corporations like Halliburton and Schulmberger have all of their employees sign a paper stating they will not take problems to court or outside council, they will handle them through that companies "dispute resolution program"...

It's over and I don't think that anything will ever change except for the days that we talk about the story.