O Line and disappearing protection
 

I know this is really picking the flies out of the garbage... The first 3 years of Brees donning the black and gold his sack numbers were significantly low:

2006 - 18
2007 - 16
2008 - 13

The following 3 years those numbers grew:

2009 - 20
2010 - 25
2011 - 24.

In 06/07 the starting line was:
Jammal Brown
Jamar Nesbit
Jeff Faine
Jahri Evans
Jon Stinchcomb

In 08
Jammal Brown
Carl Nicks
Jonathan Goodwin
Jahri Evans
Jon Stinchcomb

In 09/10
Jermon Bushrod
Carl Nicks
Jonathan Goodwin
Jahri Evans
Jon Stinchcomb

In 11
Jermon Bushrod
Carl Nicks
Brian De La Puente
Jahri Evans
Zach Strief


I understand that the sack numbers are low regardless of being mid 20's. Is there a way with the addition of Grubbs to bring back those Mid 2000 type numbers?

I'll attribute this to being spoiled.

Just remember there was some instability and injuries along the line. Stinchcomb played hurt, Bushrod was developing, center turnover, and Charles Brown sucked donkey balls. We also go significantly younger at two G spots and at LT.

It's not an issue.

That '08 O-line was stacked!

Also, you have to remember that other teams learn to play better against certain O-line schemes with time and practice, so this is something that might've happened with Kromer's O-line schemes.

Still, the fact that the sack numbers are so low clearly points out that while teams have certainly studied the Saints' O-line closely, they haven't been able to dominate against it. That's just great coaching, good players, and it doesn't hurt that your QB has one of the quickest releases in the league.

That 08 line was amazing at pass protection, but never managed to get a run game going

I remember about 4 losses in that year due to our inability to run the ball and convert 3rd and short situations, very painful losses

The very next year we put an emphasis on the run game and win the superbowl

I'd rather have the line we have now, sure the 08 line was great but drew just broke the single season passing yardage record, our current line isn't shabby

Intact this current group have won the madden protectors award 2 timeS

Yet every year our offense becomes more potent, breaks more records, and is more prolific as the year before.

I know you prefaced your post as nitpicking, and thats exactly what it is.

After QB, O-line is probably the position group I'm worried least about. Well, probably tied with RB, but you get my point.

At worst, we have an A-minus O-line.

The group we have now is awesome. No worries on my side at all. I guess I just think they are the best line and should be able to produce those numbers all the time, especially with the running/screen game and #9's quick trigger...

You also have to realize that when we start complaining about this kind of stuff, it means there is something really special about to hit the dome... The league is probably going to think that we got trampled by another hurricane after this...

Yes! I was just telling a friend, I think the atmosphere and the team at home is going to be like 8 straight "after-Katrina" Falcons games in the Dome...

As to the sacks, I'm interested in all the theories about it. Mine is that maybe Drew has been holding onto the ball a tiny bit longer, looking for that completion because he is so confident in the line as he has developed under Payton. Obviously that is not the MAIN reason but it could be a factor too. I don't have any stats on it, but he seems to me like when he gets sacked, he doesn't really "scramble" as much as use footwork to evade guys, looking, looking, looking, and then he gets clapped and dragged down in a bear hug. Or he gets sacked on plays where he sorta doesn't have a chance, like when Fujita ran in there against the Browns and clobbers him, etc.

Interesting to think about why.

The group we have now has a new face in it and the only thing I would have of concern is the gelling and synchronization.

"also nit picking".

Last seasons rams game still bugs me. Brees was useless without OL protection. I hate signing veteran OL and DL. You never know what quality of play you are gonna get out of them. I don't see much from lofton or grubbs.

Really? Lofton is just hitting his prime. Grubbs has been in front of Ray Rice (One of the most productive backs in the league) and you don't see a plus side to them?

Placing the "sacks" in context as a % increase/decrease in total passing attempts might also provide a better analysis. IMHO

Not really...

Year - Attempt - Complete - Yards

2006 - 580 - 372 - 4503
2007 - 652 - 440 - 4314
2008 - 636 - 413 - 4977
2009 - 544 - 378 - 4355
2010 - 661 - 450 - 4441
2011 - 662 - 472 - 5347

They were playing well to get paid because they knew a new contract was coming - but as always with the linesmen they get a fat contract and mail it in. Remember how good Big Boi Shaun Rogers and abrayu Franklin were - i don't. They got paid and mailed it in.

Shaun Rogers wasn't playing well and was well past his prime. Franklin was playing really well and didn't fit our 4-3. They weren't mailing it in because they got paid... one just wasn't any good and they other didn't fit.

As far as Lofton is concerned, he's 26 and has been playing well since he was a rookie. He isn't some scrub who just exploded onto the scene on a contract year. Grubbs has been one of the best guards in the NFL for quite some time and still just 28. Neither of these guys have any character issues nor have they been associated with the word fat or lazy in their career.

If you can't see any upside with either of these two players, then bless your soul. You might need some happy pills for the upcoming season.

As far as Lofton goes, he has been a great player since he was in college. He has always been a leader on the field from his time at Oklahoma, Atlanta, and Saints camp.

Grubbs has been one of the "bigger" reasons Rice has been soooo productive. Glad we have them both!!

I can see upside but I don't see why they would have any incentive. No position is easier to fake effort than the Line. We shall see.

So once a player gets paid, they don't have any incentive to play well?

How about pride? Longevity? Winning?

We should just quit now and call it a year. We just paid Drew 100 million dollars... we're screwed.

Just because one signs a contract, doesn't mean it can't be terminated. If collecting a pay check isn't enough incentive, I don't know what is.

Jahri Evans and Carl Nicks have been dominating players. Grubbs is not much, if any at all, of a dropoff in replacing Nicks. But other than that, our offensive line isn't that great in my opinion. Drew Brees doesn't just sit back there all day and throw when he feels like it. He moves around a lot and makes things happen, which aside from pure statistics is where I separate him from the other QB's like Brady, Manning and Rodgers.

I'm not saying the O-line is bad, but it hasn't been top notch other than the two players I mentioned. It speaks for how much talent we have that teams just can't predict what's coming or who's getting the ball... Our line is good enough, but it would never hurt for it to improve, and I think it will be at least a little bit better with the two tackles having another year of experience under them.

And before anyone says what I know they'll be thinking, yes, I know how we ran the ball last year. There is the fact that teams could never key in on the RB's, or any of our players, as I mentioned above, but also remember WHEN we ran the ball... The Saints play backwards. Normally when you think about wearing teams down, you're talkin' about running the ball down their throats and setting up the play action. But the Saints always come out throwing, and they're so hard to stop that they don't even need to run. When the second half came along and we were usually well ahead, the opposing defense was so tired from being on the field all day we just started running all over them. Also our stable of running backs is quite dynamic.

So my point is don't drool all over the O-line when we rush for 150 or more yards. But they are pretty decent and that's good. Just gotta hope they stay healthy, because we all saw what happened when Charlie Brown stepped in last year.

seems like the more sacks we take the more wins we have...

06 10 wins
07 7 wins
08 8wins
We had one good season

09 13 wins
10 11wins
11 13wins

I see a correlation to more sacks leading to a higher win ratio. ;)

Jahri Evans has been the constant on the Oline. He's strong and smart. Every one else has actually surprised me when they stepped up........I'm still not a Bushrod fan. But he gets the job done. de la Puenta was our diamond last year I believe. Overall I would give them an A-
That's something to be proud of. :bng:

Brian De La Puenta was an undrafted free agent.
Jahri Evans was a 4th round draft pick.
Carl Nicks was a 5th round draft pick.
Zack Strief was a 7th round draft pick.
Jermon Bushrod was a 4th round draft pick.

I think Arron Kromer is an unsung hero on the Saints sidelines. It seems since he's been with the Saints, the line is always greater than the sum of it's parts. And when you look at how supposed studs did after they left the Saints, like Jamaal Brown and Jeff Faine, it's just more evidence that the line is very well coached.

The Green Bay game last season sticks out in my mind...

The San Fran and Seattle playoff losses also showed they have trouble against younger, more athletic talent; thought the San Fran loss was mostly caused by turnovers, the Offensive line had its part in contributing to that as well; the Seattle loss Drew was harrassed and well their Tight End looked all world against a certain safety...

The Offensive Line has got some transition and had a nice surprise at Center last year; would like to see someone emerge as the clear cut Right Tackle; I believe (hope) that Grubbs will ably replace Nicks and provide a different hit in the running game as well...

The weakness of the Saints' O-line is, in my opinion, both of the tackles.


Bushrod is OK, but he is not even close to the level of Evans as a guard, and that is why he should go after this coming season if he wants more money than he is currently getting.

Strief and Brown are in reality both subs and depth guys at best, but I hope that this year's 7th round pick from Nebraska, Marcel Jones, will emerge as a starting RT in 2013 with a year spent under Kromer's tutelage.

The Saints should try and draft a LT in next year's draft to replace Bushrod and become the starter for years to come, and I'd even be for using the 1st rounder to do that if they can have the right guy at the 32nd pick. ;-)

Bottom line is that with the contract Brees got and the importance of him staying healthy if the Saints want to stay as an upper level team, O-line should be a focus in the coming seasons, especially improving the tackles.

I think our OT's are OK, because Drew needs the middle protected more than the outsides. With the short drops, quick hitters and the fact that Drew must have back-up cameras in the back of his helmet, our OG's are the new OT's.

When Drew gets pressured up the gut, he looks very mediocre.

I think our focus in upcoming seasons should be D-line and LB. We threw some bodies at OLB and we have some young potential at DE and DT, but we just don't know if they will develop into good NFL players.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I fully agree that the Saints do have a guard-driven O-line, which does suit the playing style of Brees. But the Saints don't really have any real depth behind their OTs and I still think that Strief should not be a starter and having such a strong pair of guards have helped the O-line to get away with shotty OT play - yes I'm looking at you Bushrod - but upgrading those positions would pay dividends with running plays and screen game as well as pass protection.

Sure there are other parts of the team that need upgrading as well, but as far as this O-line thread goes, it's clear to me that they need some upgrades on their OTs if they want the performance level to remain about the same.

IMO, the Saints became incerasingly pass happy under Payton.
When Duece was pounding the rock there was much better balance.
Payton spoke often of 30/30, and then would have Brees sling 40+ times.
Brees has avoided enough sacks to have had 40 in any given season.
Many of the sacks he ended up with were 3rd and long, and without conversion,
we were punting anyway. Very few of those were blind side miscues. Thank you Lord!
Our O-line is fine.
I would love to see a more consistent 30/30 so Brees doesn't start to think that he has to
make everything happen or bare the full load for our success, and ends up with his pickle in a pickle.

Would like to get a road grader at Right Tackle, but that would be a luxury as this offense has very few weaknesses...

The Left Tackle could be improved - but where do you find the money for such a player?

Keep drafting OL in rounds 3-5 and develop to replace those who want to break the bank as Nicks (don't blame him) would have done...

Offensive Linemen are important, but they don't pass or score touchdowns...

It's really kind of hard to be a good tackle if you are lined up next to a poor guard, and vice versa.
Last year, week for or five, the O-line found it's groove, started getting some push,
and everything else started to work beautifully.
I think they will find that groove again this year with Grubbs and have another good season.
Our versatility makes it much easier for our guys to keep defenders on their heels.

Yep, that was about the time they gave Kreutz the boot, and he was replaced by De La Puenta, which led to more consistent play from the interior of the O-line, which is why the only pressure Brees felt the rest of the season was coming from the edge.

I truly feel that Nicks' superior play has made Bushrod seem a lot better than he is in reality, and the same has happened with Evans and Strief, and to some extent DLP has been the beneficiary of both of those great players.

I'm not worried about Nicks leaving since he was replaced by Grubbs who should be as close to Nicks' level as you could get a replacement, and who knows - he might even surpass Nicks in Kromer's schemes? Anyway, I think Evans was/is the better of the two guards, and that is why I don't see Nicks' departure as such a big blow when it comes to O-line productivity.


And I do get your point JP about the cost of a great LT, but with the track-record of the Saints' scouting department in finding great O-linemen, I wouldn't hesitate in using next year's 1st rounder on the best available OT or trading down to the 2nd if there was better value to be had in that move. The great thing about the new CBA is that rookie contracts are no longer "bank breakers" and late 1st rounders can be signed relatively cheap - at least relative to what they would've signed for couple of years ago. That relative cheapness of the late 1st and early 2nd rounders is why there were so many trade ups and downs in this year's draft when compared to the previous drafts.

Carl Nicks failed his first physical. See my point now? What kind of play can the Bucs expect out of him?

Seriously I am very concerned about our offensive line this year. We are going to find out how the old pre-payout nicks was integral to Brees' success.

Link? Physical or conditioning test?

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LOL

A lineman failed a conditioning by 3.3 seconds.

You know what Schiano's conditioning test consisted of?

16 110 yard dashes in a row.

Let me say that again...

16 110 yard dashes in a row.

I'm not worried about the O-line as long as they don't blow their assignment and get Brees beheaded. Grubbs I feel will give the run game a edge but the team he came from was not pass happy like us, so until I get to see him in action in the pass happy O we have it will be hard to tell, but I think he will be great , it might take a little while for the O to gel.

Well, hopefully they'll use that Grubbs' superior run blocking to call some more off the guard run plays to the left side of the line.

Wow! Thats 1 mile, sprinting.

I'm shocked that some O-linemen actually passed.

On top of joining an offensive line that is already pretty good at protecting the quarterback, I expect that Grubbs pass protection will be considered significantly better just because of the change in quarterbacks that he's blocking for.

It's common knowledge that Flacco holds on to the ball way too long and he's only slightly more mobile than the new Gleason statue in front of the Dome. That, in and of itsel,f has to make an offensive linemans life harder. By contrast, Drew has fantastic pocket presence. Sometimes he seems to have eyes in the back of his head



(if you happen to read this Roger Goodell, it was only a joke Drew Brees does NOT have eyes in the back of his head. There's no reason to suspend him)