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Hey gang,

Finally registered with B&G.net after being a devout reader the past 2 years. I just wanted to let you know that this is has been my first stop for Saints info since the day I stumbled onto it. I've always found these forums to be the best source for all things Saints despite the occasional over-opinonated pessimistic views that come from the years of strife associated with being a dedicated fan of a team that has perenially disappointed.

Myself, I moved to New Orleans in 2000 from Houston, TX. I was a lifelong Oiler fan until the Oilers ended their life in 97. I may not know all of the heartache associated with being a Saint's fan, but I do know heartache, nonetheless (e.g. 1/03/93 in Buffalo). When I moved to NO, the Oilers had been gone for 3 years, and my support of the team had been gone even longer when they officially made the agreement but were forced to play out their contract with the Astrodome. It was an easy transition for me without a team and the buzz that was created after the 2000 season. I was officially hooked.

I don't know how much I will post, as I try to stay rational and non-confrontational, but damn if the excitement of the year coming hasn't put a bee in my bonnet the likes of which I've never felt in all my years as a hometown fan. Not only have the Saint's done just about everything I could have asked of them after last year, but I cannot remember the NFL ever being this popular and competitive, and this year looks to be an unbelievably exciting time for all fans of the game of football in general, and hopefully for us Saint's fans as well.

As you may have noticed, I am more likely a member of your fabled Sunshine Bunch, and why not...I believe. You don't have to believe to be a fan, but I certainly don't envy the amount of anxiety and stress you must go through during the course of a season in doubt while secretly hoping to be proven wrong once and for all. With a little luck this can be that season, and I for one can't wait for the ride to start.

-Sars

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I believe. Welcome aboard. You don\'t have to be born a Saint to be a Saint. It\'s all about belief, love, alligator sausage and bad hangovers. Or something like that.

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Bless you boys! This may be the year.

True fans remember that and smile.

One double cheeseburger, CHING.
Two kids meals and two medium sodas, CHA-CHING.

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As an official spokeman for the sunshine club. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Kick off you shoes and enjoy the ride. :P

One word of advice, though. Don\'t accept any drinks from strangers. There\'s some bad brew floating around here. ;)

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aw man - lost another one. That\'s OK, you\'ll all come crawlin\' back later! MMMWAAAA-HAA-HAA-HA!

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\"Don\'t accept any drinks...\" I LOVE IT.

WhoDat, you know that most budding sunshiners get easily discouraged once the season starts... BUT this year we plan to protect our own!

Mmmmwwwaaaaa... cough cough... oh well I was never very good at manical laughing.

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Sarsipius,

Beware of Gatorman, if he\'s still on this forum. He\'s there in the darkness, ready to pounce on any well-meaning, optimistic fan. Just when you think you\'re days going great, BOOM, the Gatorman will snap you with a \"the glass is half empty\", AB sucks, Has-been post that will dreaden the rest of your day.

You\'ve been warned. GO SAINTS.

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Uh-OH sounds like my kind of guy.... I am a pessimist...but only because that way I am never let down...if they suck then I expected it and I don\'t have a stroke...if they are good then I am always pleased to be wrong....lol

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You talkin\' smack about Gator? He maybe a staunch member of the pesimist club, but he knows his shiznit - and I think deep down, he\'s a good bloke... ;)

I wouldn\'t worry about him too much, unless you say somethin\' dumb...

BTW welcome new kids. I hope you enjoy our little... er, huge, I guess... forum.

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Man, I do love when he comes out from the shadows. You called 08 the x factor - I say it\'s Gator! You can expect to see 08 - but with Gator, you never know when and from where the Blitzkreig will come.

By the way, the Sunshiners fearless leader admitted two of these three already:
They\'ll change their tune about the last one too and then tell us how they predicted it all along! ;)

Cozz - welcome to the WhoTang Clan. Grab a seat, grab some Tang, and start talking trash to Billy. Aaahh, a new pledge class. How I love having pledges.

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I have no problem with that. Its when y\'all call it like it AIN\'T and try to pass off negative agenda driven drivel as realism that irritates me.

But who\'s to say it isn\'t the individual poster but the scheme of the post that determine optimism/pessimism.
I say its the individual poster, not the posting scheme.

[Edited on 24/6/2004 by Danno]

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You mean like when Gator says that the Saints are going to be 9-7, and then I say 8-8 or 9-7 and then they end up 8-8??? Is that the type of \"negative agenda driven drivel\" you\'re talking about? As compared to the realistic and unbiased 13-3 predictions certain members of this board made?? Just want to clarify. :)

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Oh, that was classic, Danno. It\'s not the posting scheme that\'s responsible.It\'s the guy posting that trash. Although we do have a lot of \"schemers\" on this board.

Anyone want to talk about how Brooks doesn\'t fit in our west coast offense? :o

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Sunshiner or not, I will say this - I have never completely warmed up to Haslett. His coaching technique the first couple years were a lot like watching Horn pull out the cell phone - sure it\'s entertaining for a bit, but doesn\'t really belong on the field. Last year\'s kinder, gentler Haslett was painful to watch during those games when we couldn\'t get anything going and nothing was being done about it. I wouldn\'t have been upset if they pulled the plug on his contract, and if with all the talent ammassed this year we still dont make a playoff run, I will help lead the charge calling for it.

Delhomme was a solid backup and a great pickup for Carolina, though I believe you are fooling yourself if you think even today after the Super Bowl run that Carolina would choose him over Brooks if both were available and not under contract. He is a great person with a square head on his shoulders who will do well in this league much like a Jim Kelly, who I bet never had a day in his career go by he didn\'t wish he had the talent and abilities of Marino, Elway, or Montana. I will give it to Delhomme for his playoff performances, and had Davis and the defense stepped up as they did during the regular season, they would all have rings.

Fumbles are like dropped passes. They are mental and contagious. Once you get it in your head that the first thing you have to worry about is not dropping the ball, it happens even more often. Despite the numbers that Brook\'s put up last year, his fumbles did indeed cost us games, though I have no doubt those will be missing from he repetoire this year. Had he thrown interceptions, there might be cause for concern as they show misjudgment or the inability to read coverage whereas fumbles can be fixed - just ask Beerman.

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No thats not what I\'m talking about. Who said 13-3 and did they clarify it with a statement like \"if we can stay healthy\"?

Its when someone says Haslett and Loomis can\'t bring talent into this organization, and then 2 topics later state that there\'s too much talent on this team for Haz to be 8-8.

Its looking at the negative of every issue and ramming down everyone\'s throat.

Its taking an article about Haz getting tougher on some players and it being posted as \"Hopeless Haz Searches for Clues, Again and Again\"

Some of us see the glass half full, some see it half empty, the wrong color, the wrong size, the wrong shape, the wrong temperature and the wrong liquid.

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I think that this whole \"sides\" thing is a bit wacky (though, generally, it is obvious which side I fall one).

The thing is, as usual, we all want to understand the game better - it is true that some people seem to see rainbows more often than other and others see webs and bugs more often. At the end of the day, both sides say ridiculous things - that is mostly to get a rise out of the other side (cough cough... Brooks is the best QB to ever where B&G) ;) .

I\'m excited about the new class too though. Hopefully new light will be shed on old debates.

PS - I know some people who\'ve said things like this: \"Haz can\'t win in December and never will\", then retracted that for a much more reasonable position. I don\'t see how refining your view is bad? :D

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HALF FULL, YOU MEAN... :P :P :P :P :P :P

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Why is he still unemployed ma man?
I can\'t help it that I\'m a truth addict.
Laughable. You think Haz had no input? How about Connell? That was very Jim Finks-ish eh?

WOW, \"might might not is open minded? I\'m amazed at your philisophycal accumen ma man... well maybe not.


What pattern do they continue to follow. last year they made wholesale changes, this year there aren\'t. Is this part of that openminded maybe/maybe not mentality.

Wow, I said 10-6 with the Seattle game being probably the swing game that decides if we make the playoffs. Man was I way off! You can\'t tell me this team wasn\'t closer to 10-6 than 6-10, unless of course you\'re a close minded individual.


I have no idea what you\'re trying to say.
I said there are some posters here that complain about not winning with all this talent, and then saying how bad Loomis and Haz are at building talent.
And you are not quoting me, ma man. I didn\'t say that. I asked if the person WhoDat was referring to said that. Lets try to keep up.
If someone predicts 10-6 and after game one we lose Deuce, Brooks, Horn, Howard and Thomas for the year and we finish 8-8, are you gonna say I told you we\'d finish 8-8.
I wasn\'t referring to you in my post, but the pessimism I detest in general.
If you thought I was directing that at you, you need to lighten up and be a little more open-minded ma man.
;)

[Edited on 25/6/2004 by Danno]

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One thing about it, the WhoTang clan was formed long before the sunshine club.

The sunshine club was formed to defeat such exisisting popular logic as:

1. Randy Meuller was the one responsilbe for the Saints success.
But, Haslett was responsible for getting rid of Roaf, Le Roi Glover, and Joe Johson. Yeah, and I got got some ocean front property in Arizona. ;)

2. Az-Zahir Hakim was the one that won the playoff game for the Saints.
Even though Brooks and the offense built a 24-point lead and scored 31-points. I\'m thinking the defense let the Rams back in the game. Hey, but that\'s just my crazy logic.

3. Brooks shouldn\'t be our QB because he\'s not right for McCarthy\'s West Coast Offense.
Even though we\'ve never run the West Coast Offense. McCarthy himself even said so. But, hey, they\'ve read some article on the West Coast offense and it\'s hard to argue with that. ;)

4. Brooks shouldn\'t be our QB because he get\'s paid like a top 5 QB and he\'s not proven to be one.
Yeah, you checked out any of these rookie\'s contracts. At least with Brooks he\'s proven more than some rookie. Other teams can pay based on potential but not our Saints. I suppose we shouldn\'t use our franchise tag every year since no player but Deuce has proven to be a top 5 player and we all know what the frachise tag means. Has anyone heard anyone in the WhoTang clan complaining about Darren Howard\'s contract? No you haven\'t but his name isn\'t Aaron Brooks.

Oh, there\'s plenty more of these \"realist\" FACTS out there. They\'re not being negative. They\'re just \"realists\". :P

So, there you have it folks. The reason a few of us are labeled as \"sunshiners\". Hey, I can stand l little rain. Just not 365 days a year... :P :P


[Edited on 25/6/2004 by GumboBC]

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OK - I\'ll clarify for you:

There is a lot of talent on this team. To date, much of that talent has not developed as we hoped, and the coaching staff promised. Some people want to blame that on the players and say that their big boys and it\'s up to them. Others think if it were a few isolated incidents that might be the case, but when it\'s team wide it\'s different.

Next, there is a lot of talent on this team. For some time the problem has been on the defensive side of the ball. There are a few issues here. First, it was Has and Co. shipped out good players and moved others from positions where they were successful to positions where they were not. Finally, and maybe most importantly, the same major needs have been clear for about three years and those are the only positions that have not been adequately addressed. For the record, THIS IS MY OPINION.

I understand that you disagree with that Danno, but then why do we continue to need LBs and CBs every offseason? And Gator makes a good point - I\'ll concede, this team has great talent and continues to find and develop even more talente. SO WHY ARE THEY .500 EVERY YEAR? If it\'s not the fault of these very talented players, then whose fault is it? Sorry, I don\'t believe the bad luck excuse - got any others?

C\'mon, tell me again about how each season is different and it was something new and unexpected each year. Yeah, then why hasn\'t Haslett planned for the unexpected yet? It seems other coaches do.

Say what you will - the Saints are one of five teams (i think) that haven\'t made the playoffs in 3 years. This is the most talented team we\'ve ever had - being in that poor company is not acceptible.

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I don\'t disagree with anything you just said. I have always held that the weak link is coaching. Why did you say you understand that I disagree with that?

There\'s only one thing I kinda disagree with. The most glaring need on this team for 3 years has been D-line, LB, and CB, in that order. I don\'t think anyone but the Brooks Haters would debate that.

Over that span we\'ve drafted 4 LB\'s, 5 DL and 1 CB. It appears to me we are addressing all but 1 position, CB. In 2004 our front 7 will probably consist of 7 guys brought in under this coach. They may not be developing the players properly, but they are addressing it.

And By the way, thats twice you\'ve said I blamed it (8-8) all on bad luck.
For the record... I NEVER SAID THAT! :mad:
When did I even remotely suggest that?

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It wasn\'t you Danno, it was me. I have said in the past that the ball just didn\'t bounce the Saints way last year...and I have included this as PART of the reason our record was what it was. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn\'t. There are those that don\'t think injuries have anything to do with a team\'s record. I disagree. There are those that don\'t think a team needs to be fortunate to win the superbowl. I disagree with this also. I am not saying talent, or coaching, or schemes aren\'t also a part of the big picture. I\'m suggesting that fortune, good and bad, is also a part of the big picture. I would submit the Carolina Panthers as the team that was last year\'s most fortunate team. Anyone argue that statement?

Now, the luck thing is sarcastically tossed into the mix by those that generally think Haz is clueless or those that think Brooks isn\'t a quality QB, but it\'s people being just that...sarcastic. Show me one person who doesn\'t think luck plays a role and I\'ll show you someone who isn\'t really paying attention. ;)

[Edited on 25/6/2004 by saintfan]

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There is a difference to me Danno, between properly addressing and addressing. Show me any three other positions on this roster that haven\'t seen the same amount of change since Haslett got here. Problem is, when they need a safety they go get Tebucky Jones. He didn\'t work out real well last season, but it was a decent move - I can\'t fault them for going after a guy who was touted by many. When they need a TE - Sloan and Conwell - they draft Boo and Hilton. Conwell and Sloan didn\'t work out great either, but again, I can\'t and don\'t blame them.

However, when we need a MLB more than anything else and they go sign Orlando Ruff - well, when he doesn\'t work out I feel that I can be upset with that. Some people on this board wishfully thought he could be OK, but it was no surprise to a lot of us when he had problems cracking the starting lineup let alone excelling. That\'s my point. You want to think it\'s unfair, fine, go right ahead. Doesn\'t hurt my feelings.

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ORLANDO RUFF????
A guy brought in and touted as a 2 down MLB???
Darren Smith I believe was the starter and by season\'s end Ruff was the starter. I think he even led the team in tackles for several games down the stretch.
I don\'t think anyone thought this guy was Takeo Spikes. You make it seem like all the sunshiners wanted this guy instead of Spikes.
Thats my point. Gross mis-representation of the actual facts to suit an agenda.
Just like Ambrose. Most of us knew he\'d be a nickle back and a spot starter when he signed with us. But the moonshiners have to come out and act like everyone but them thought he was the 2nd coming of Deion Sanders.
And just like Craft this year. Most of us think he\'ll be a good compliment to Thomas. Challenge for the 2nd CB spot and probably see a lot of action as the nickle at worst.
But I\'m sure if he only sees nickle action the moonies will say I told you he wasn\'t Charles Woodson you clueless boobs!!!.
Putting words into peoples\' mouths is not being open-minded. I know YOU don\'t agree with that but I do.

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Actually, I wasn\'t talking about you at all. I was talking about Jim Haslett. I gave Haslett credit for certain moves but was illustrating how he continues to make the wrong (or INADEQUATE, whatever you want to call it) moves at key positions of need. Maybe your problem is simply that you take things personally. I was criticizing Haslett for personnel decisions - I made no reference to A) you personally, and B) I said that SOME PEOPLE thought he would be OK. I didn\'t suggest that you said he would be the next coming of Spikes. READ the post before you attack based on its comments. How about that?

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This is some FUNNY stuff.

Hey, B&B hates everybody, but I love all all of ya!! :P

I don\'t agree with all of ya. But, I love ya just the same...LMAO.... :D

Come on, Gator. I\'m ready. ;)

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I think when I referred to myself as a realist.......someone on this board blasted me saying something to the effect of a realist is a pessimist in sheeps clothing.....just wondering.......do I straddle the fence or which side am I on?????

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Good question Subguy.

I suppose I don\'t know which side you are on (and that is probably a credit to you).

Realist is a word we need to do away with. Realist is what everyone thinks they are - there is no point arguing over that. What we need to do is cut through the \"agendas\" and get to the truth. This happens when pessimists and optimists finally come to agreement - that is when we are allowed to be realists, NOT before that.

I once saw a study that the people who see the world most clearly are depressives. To be psychologically healthy, apparently we have to delude ourselves into thinking things are better than they are. You can take this anyway you want, but I\'d rather be healthy than dead on accurate. I think the goal is to see that you (fill in your name here) see the world through a lens and try to make due with what you can get by filtering out the cr*p (by discussing with others).

As another respected poster might put it:
.02

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Realist: Someone who looks at the situation with an open mind and tells it like they see it.

Pessimist: Someone who searches for the down side of every statement, every pesonnel decision, and every coaching move and rams that negativity down the throat of everyone who feels even the most remote hint of optimism.

Put me down as a realist ma man.

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WRONG.

Optimist: Someone who searches for the up side of every statement, every pesonnel decision, and every coaching move and rams wishful expectations down the throat of everyone who feels even thinks about questioning a team that is 226-338 all time.

Put Danno down in the optimist category.

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Hry Subguy

If it is a wrought iron fence with the fleur de lis on the tops , straddling could be painfull........ :P

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Sometimes the matter just sucks .

It does not matter wether it is sucking a lollipop or a rat turd , it still sucks .

8-8 sucks ....... ;)