Saints corners......
 

Saints corners get job done

Despite no stars, unit among best



By SHELDON MICKLES
smickles@theadvocate.com
Advocate sportswriter



METAIRIE -- After years of being picked on by opposing quarterbacks and ridiculed by media and fans, the New Orleans Saints' cornerbacks are carrying a large chip on their shoulders this summer.
All they heard during the offseason was how the Saints were in need of a shutdown cornerback to insert into the lineup. But most of the top-notch free agents were not available or extremely pricey, and the best collegians were long gone by the time the Saints made the 18th pick in the first round.

Through it all, Fred Thomas, Ashley Ambrose, Fakhir Brown and Jason Craft had to be wondering what the fuss was about. But instead of worrying about what was being said and written, they worked at becoming a cohesive and productive part of the defense.

Collectively, they're turning heads as the Saints wrap up their second week of training camp and prepare for Friday night's exhibition opener with the New York Jets in the Superdome.

"We're just a group of guys out there," said Thomas, a nine-year veteran who is considered the team's top cover corner. "We don't have a lot of big names and we're not the kind of cornerbacks the fans come to see. But we go out and work hard and do what it takes to win."

Yet, anonymity seems to suit this bunch just fine. Thomas, Ambrose and Brown were all part of a defense that ranked eighth out of 32 teams against the pass a year ago. Craft, whom the Saints tried to sign as a restricted free agent three years ago, came to the team from the Jacksonville Jaguars this spring in a trade for a fifth-round draft choice.

"I feel like we have to go out and make a point every day," said Thomas. "That's my chip. It doesn't bother me at all. I'm not complaining because I'm just a guy who wants to come in and help get us over the hump."

Which is just what secondary coach Greg Brown, who is in charge of the cornerbacks, wants to hear after all the talk about going out and getting a cornerback this spring.

"To their credit, these guys have all taken a professional attitude about it," Brown said. "They know that kind of talk is always going to be part of the game. They hear that we're going to go out and get this guy or that guy, but they deal with it."

And, according to coach Jim Haslett, they're dealing with it nicely after 16 training camp practices.

"All four of them are doing a nice job," he said. "If you had to sit down and rate them one through four, the coaches would come up with a different order every time.

"Fred and Ashley are starting now, but Fakhir is pushing the envelope to start and Jason is doing a good job. They're all putting their hands on the ball and making plays."

The cornerbacks believe their play this summer is a carryover from last season when they allowed just 187.1 yards per game. Thomas, who had a career-high five interceptions in 2002, led the team again last season with four while Ambrose came up with three.

But it never seems to be enough.

"Nobody is ever satisfied," Ambrose said. "For us to finish eighth in the league against the pass, that's a tremendous feat. But we're not worried about the criticism because we know what we're capable of."

"I know everybody is on us about our corners, but I like our cornerbacks," Haslett said. "Everyone says you don't have a Champ Bailey. (But) we've got four quality corners, and the good thing is they all play all positions."

Thomas and Ambrose, who have a combined 20 years in the league, are clearly the leaders of the group although Brown, who could have become a free agent this spring, has come on strong the past couple of years.

"Ashley is like a master technician," said Brown. "He's extremely smart and he reads the receiver's body language. Those are the kinds of things that put him in position to make plays.

"Fred is a lot like Ashley, they're survivors," he said. "He's one of the top tacklers in the league at the position and guys don't usually get away from him. It was great to seem him play at a high level last year."

But how they play as a group is what matters most to Brown. The two who don't start will be heavily involved in the nickel and dime alignments, which means he's counting on all of them.

"Those corners are a special breed, they're out there on an island play in and play out," Brown said. "It takes a special kind of person to play there and we like the ones we've got. They all bring something to the table."

Saints corners......
 

We were 8th out of 32 and banged up at the same time. Damn these guys are going to be good this year.

I\'ve got an itch that only Saint\'s Football can scratch.

Saints corners......
 

I think our corners are ready to shut the critics up !

As a unit they will play extremely well !

Saints corners......
 

only if Fred and Jason or the starters... Ambrose has got to go...

Saints corners......
 

8 out of 32 teams against the pass only because they couldnt stop the run at all. These guys all have flaws and are the scariest thought on this team. Anytime Ambrose is on the field he is a big play waiting to happen.

Saints corners......
 

I\'m rooting for these guys to come together, but don\'t let last year\'s stats confuse you about how good they are.

Last year the secondary was not as good as the \"187.1 yards per game\" might suggest. This is because when a team cannot stop the run, the opponent has no need to throw. Thus, the passing defense stats appear better.

All season long when the Saints D needed to make a stop on 3rd down the secondary failed to deliver that stop. If you really want to look at the passing D then compare their yards per passing attempt to the other teams. I would wager they\'re not in the top 10.

Saints corners......
 

But when the opposing QB has 7 seconds to throw the ball it doesn\'t matter if you have 5 Champ Baileys back there they are gonna give it up. I saw more of that on 3rd down than anything else. NO PASS RUSH.

Saints corners......
 

Saint\'s also got Booker back and let Crowell go. Craft and Thomas will be the starters and I think our CB situation continues to improve. Only Bellamy and Craver are nicked up and I won\'t say anything else because it might bring the bad vodoo luck.

Saints corners......
 

How could you possibly say the position is improved. What have they done besides signing craft that has improved the position. Ambrose is garbage. Thomas is average and nothing to back that up. The DB\'s will kill us all year long.

Saints corners......
 

You know, you guys are REALLY making me question your football knowledge.

1. If the secodary was so bad last year because teams didn\'t throw the ball at them enough, then how do you know they were bad. Afterall they were ranked 8th in passing defense and allowed only 56% of passes to be completed.

2. As Danno said, we had no pass rush last year. Think that might of had something to do with it. The Panthers secondary got them to the Super Bowl. How did that happen?

3. We have Jason Craft now. Do you know anything about him? Didn\'t think so. Could Fakir Brown of actually improved? You don\'t know do ya?

Talk about the secondary if you must, but you really have nothing to suggest they were bad last year.

Saints corners......
 

I guess we will see if the DB\'s suck all year long. I really don\'t think so, Craft has been added to a group that has been together for 2 or three years.

The fact that we were 8 out of 32 teams against the pass and even though some people may suggest that was because we could not stop the run says something about our DB\'s play at the end of last season.

Let\'s not forget that other teams were running down our throats the first 8 games of the season when we were almost dead last against the pass. How did that happen? Come on, with Brown and Craver giving the appearance already that they are ready to step up, a healthy Thomas, Craft, Mitchell, Harper Bellamy(minor injury) and yes even Ambrose I think the DB\'s are going to surprise alot of people. I guess when they start and finish in the top 10 this year against the pass you will credit the offenses position on the field.

Saints corners......
 

If they start and finish in the top 10 this season against the pass it will be because they cant stop the run. If they stop the run and finish in the top 10 I will be the first one apologizing for dogging them all season. They are short on talent. The only way they will hold up is with a huge pass rush. Thats my opinion and right or wrong I hope they can hold up, just dont expect it.

Saints corners......
 

Craft seems to be damn good corner... looks great in camp.

Saints corners......
 

Ok lets say Craft is the next coming. Whos after that. Thomas, Ambrose, Brown, or Craver. Is there anything there that excites you? Not me

Saints corners......
 

What\'s up fella\'s? o.k. Let me get this straight. When an opposing team passes the ball, is every reception the cornerback\'s fault? I didn\'t think so. That\'s why they call it the secondary. Our safeties played excellent againt the pass last year. They might not have had a lot of int\'s to show for it, but they cut the deep pass down big time. The Redskins did had Champ Bailey last year and I don\'t see anyone raving about how great their secondary was. Joe Horn done pretty well against Champ as far as I am concerned.

You know why they sucked? No pass rush. Their D-line was worse than our\'s. Look at the Bucs, Panthers, Patriots, and Eagles to name a few. What do they all have in common? Good D-lines. If you don\'t get a good pass rush, your secondary is in trouble.

Here\'s an example. Peyton Manning whipped our butt bad last year along with every other team he played with except the Patriots. Why? It\'s very hard to get to Manning, but the Pats seemed to figure out how. I believe they sacked him 5 times (at least) and had a few picks. It\'s all about pressuring the q.b.


Sorry for being away so long, I just hope the guys in the Sunshine Club let me back in :D

Saints corners......
 

You boys play nice!

Saints corners......
 

Joe, didn\'t call any names here, but I\'ll admit I was a little too testy with my responses to this thread. I apolojize.


whodatsaintsfan26 -- Let me first say, you may very well be right about our secondary. God knows I\'m not convinced they can handle the elite passing teams. I\'m going to take a wait and see approach. I believe with an improved pass rush, they will play much better.

Saints corners......
 

I think most of you who are defending the CBs are over stating the \"no pass rush\" argument. IMO, part of the problem against the run is that the d-line was so insistent about getting to the QB. No, they weren\'t as good at getting to him in past years, but that doesn\'t mean that wasn\'t their main focus.

The point of the article that started this seemed to be that our CBs are really good even though most people percieve them as being ok at best (one of the points, anyway). The writer backed that up by giving the 187.1 yards yielded per game in the passing D and proclaiming that was good evidence for the Cbs actually being really good. I simply disagree that the yards per game stat is a valid stat by which to judge their effectiveness - especially when the run D was so poor last year.

I also think Thomas doesn\'t always get his due respect. I see him as a really good CB - obviously not a \"shutdown\" CB but really good. Craft is a complete unknown to me as well as most everyone here, but we\'ll find out more about him against the Jets.

Ambrose is my biggest concern. I was not thrilled with his play last year and even more worried since the league is going to focus more on the grabbing. Ambrose did a lot of that last year and, if it\'s because he\'s lost more than a step, he\'s going to have to continue to do it. We all know what that means.

Saints corners......
 

You heard the man, play nice! Ok, sorry for getting the heated discussion going, NOT!
Just joshing Joe. I think our secondary is alot more stable than most people think and can\'t wait until they have a chance to prove it.

I like these debates, gets alot more people interested in OUR BOARD!

Saints corners......
 

I personally believe our CB\'s are adequate.
Some argue they are doo-doo. (yes I said doo-doo)
Some argue they are really good.

I don\'t think our success on defense this year will depend primarily on how good or bad our CD\'s are. Our defense will ABSOLUTELY depend on how well our D-Line plays.

If our D-line plays up to their 2004 expectations our CB\'s will look great.

If the D-line disappoints, its gonna be a long season all around.

Saints corners......
 

Unless something was edited out, I didn\'t see anything that wasn\'t in the \"play nice\" theme. There weren\'t any personal attacks or cursing. There\'s nothing wrong with a heated debate except that for some people it leads naturally to breaking the posting rules. I say keep it going, but be respectful and mindful of others.

Saints corners......
 

I agree I think these spicy New Orleans debates are just like the food, grrrrrrrrrreat.

Saints corners......
 

I\'ve been saying that\'s the game plan all offseason. Stop the run. Hella pass rush on passing downs. You have to scheme to the personnel that you have. We don\'t have Woodson (when healthy) or Champ Bailey. Personally I don\'t think we can afford McKenzie\'s price or his drama even though he\'s probably close to shutdown corner talent. Unless you thought that Gamble would eventually reach elite corner status, there simply wasn\'t any corners available in this years draft. In hindsight Trufant probably was the pick we should have made in 2003. Whether Sully comes around or not, we had (and have) need of a 1st round talent cover corner.

When you play cover two and underneath coverage schemes, QB\'s have to have time and precision in order to exploit it. If you have a superior pass rush, and I believe that this Saints D-line + fast LBs can accomplish that, QBs won\'t get the time necessary to get the ball into the seams.

So average to above average secondary with a hella pass rush can work. Look to the 2002 Bucs for the blueprint.


SFIAH

Saints corners......
 

If we all agree that the strong point of our defense is the defensive line, and our greatest weakness is in the secondary, why are implementing a scheme that removes one lineman, one linebacker, and adds two more to the secondary?

Saints corners......
 

Well, even though the D-line is the strength of our defense, that doesn\'t mean we don\'t need to play some cover 2 or cover 3 schemes. We just need to play them when there\'s a high percentage they will be passing.

Having more rushers on the field means there is a higher likelyhood for getting pressure on the QB, but it leaves the secondary vulnerable if they don\'t get there.

There\'s always a risk/reward factor with any defense that is called. That\'s what seperates the good D-coaches from the GREAT D-coaches.

IMO, we are not the type of defense that is going to \"man up\" with the receivers and rush a bunch of guys. Not on a consistent basis anyway. What we need to do is mix it up and keep offenses off balance. You really can\'t do that without a talented front 4. We have that. But, we might need to protect or CB\'s at times.

If Craft or Fakir or Craver can step up, it would really allow us to pin our ears back and make life a living hell for opposing QB\'s. We\'ll see.....

Saints corners......
 

Thanks for the lesson in Defense 101, but it didn\'t really answer my question. Not a single team in any league, on any level, runs the same defense, they all mix it up. My question is, and I will try to make this a bit more clear, is, given our strengths, why would we add a scheme to our existing defensive playbook that would appear to leave us vulnerable because of our weaknesses? Look at this delta package and please point out what I am missing. I haven\'t been a fan of our linebackers in years, so in my mind, if you are wanting heavy coverage in the secondary, wouldn\'t it make more sense to just play a dime package, tweak or modify some of the plays that are currently associated with the dime and are in our playbook, rather than add another scheme?

Saints corners......
 

I am reminded of the comment...\"it\'s the SYSTEM stupid\"! No pass rush will only put additional pressure on our DB\'s, lack of LB coverage will only put additional pressure on DB\'s. The Saints do not have a PURE shut down corner...you guys can paint any picture you wish with WISHING and HOPING, but the fact remains we do not have such a corner.

How many PURE shut down corners can you name? Let us not use HYPE or MEDIA perspective...from your own eys, who is the best SHUT down corner? First, we have to define SHUT down corner. Only then can we agree on who...but you can rest assurred that it is not one of the our beloved Saints and on the current roster.

I watched the game between the Broncos and Redskins and saw Champ have no-name players make significant catches in front of him...so please spare me his NAME. Law, has had the same...so again, spare me.

Saints corners......
 

The corners played pretty good tonite, with the exception of the one bonehead interference call from Ambrose. I know\'s it\'s only preseason, but come on say they did better than you thought they would.

Would\'nt everyone agree?

Saints corners......
 

For those of you that may not know, the play nice kids was meant to keep things from getting out of hand. As some of you might remember it HAS happened. And like a wise man once said, the best offense, is a good defense. So play nice kids and you\'ll have no problem from me.

Saints corners......
 

LMAO. Yeah, there\'s no doubt things can get out of control very quick. I think this thread had the \"potential\" to do just that. Joe has dealt with enough of \'em that he can smell one from a mile away.. :P

But, you don\'t have to worry about me getting out of control. I\'m an OAK.

Now that B&B fella, that\'s a different story. He annoys me with his wit. :P I saw where you called me \"defense 101.\" I got something for ya, big boy... :o

Saints corners......
 

Hey Blue, I think someone is calling you out. I think the heated debates are great for the board. It keep\'s us all pumped between games and thanks job for the work Joe. You have a job someone of us would\'nt want and you do a damn fine one at that.

Saints corners......
 

Nobody is calling anyone out here, Billy and I have been down that road too many times in the past.
And I wasn\'t calling you Defense 101, just your broad generalizations on football. Thought that would be better than calling you the John Madden of B&G.net. :P

Saints corners......
 

Generalizations can be good from time to time, seems to get the debate going really fast.