New Orleans Saints Forums - blackandgold.com

New Orleans Saints Forums - blackandgold.com (https://blackandgold.com/community/)

- Saints (https://blackandgold.com/saints/)

- - Saints to a 3-4??? (https://blackandgold.com/saints/54936-saints-3-4-a.html)

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Singletary ftw

Or Romeo, either one would be spectacular

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Why not? Frankly based on our D last year we didn't have the personnel to run the 4-3 either. The league is moving to a slightly smaller and faster defense scheme trend. I am concerned we don't have the right players and depth at OLB though. I think Bunkley and Hicks can be a good NT rotation. We need a DE or two and we need an impact OLB. Maybe Anthony Spencer? Safety would be my next big concern. But I like the idea of the move. Keep Harper with a pay cut a run him as a hybrid OLB/S on pass downs.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boutte (Post 474780)

So why is everyone assuming that Smith will be gone because of the switch. His strong point is against the run. Wouldn't that make him ideal for a 3-4 DE?

Most 3-4 DE's are much taller than Smith with longer arms. He was even a tad short for a 4-3 DE.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Bring in Bill Cowher as DC!

Hey I can dream :)

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 474685)

NT-Bunkley
.

NT-Bunkley ? he will never hold up as NT. he got pushed all over the feild last year.

34 does not make a happy camper. I am not solid on this move at all

Wasnt expecting to wake up to this news. Seems a little harsh too me,like he is being made the scapegoat.
Unless them rumours from the unknown player about Spags being unpopular ate true.

Wonder who is coming in to replace him?

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

I think SP is thinking " Well theres no way to make it worse, so might as well change things now" 3-4 is a proper D for the passing happy offenses of the NFL.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

I was saying a couple weeks back that we should change to a 3-4, and it was not generally received well in the forum. I thought with the current group of linebackers and adding wilson as that hybrid DE/LB type player, we could be successful. Or at least improve. I always thought of Martez as a perfect fit in a 3-4, and with Lofton and Hawthorne both natural inside linebackers, it just seemed like the right roster to make this move.

I honestly thought Spagnuolo would get one more year, though.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by burningmetal (Post 474874)

I was wanting it during the Gary Gibbs years, more so a Cover 2 defense.

Gregg Williams came along, the defense never really did improve but it got turnovers, when they never got turnovers, you see disasters like the San Fran and Seattle game. form 2010 and 2011.

Most people say we dont have the LBs for it or a good Defensive line, but you know...........we dont even have a good defensive line for a damn 4-3.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

I think Sean realized we would probably have more opportunities to pressure the QB with the 3-4 or even the 3-3-5 than with the 4-3, because we don't have good talent for it like the Vikings or the previous year's Giants do.

But we must be careful and need to be able to hold up okay against the run. We saw what Adrian Peterson and Colin K. did to Dom Capers 3-4 D in some recent weeks.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by neugey (Post 474879)

Dont Atlanta run the 3-4?

Kaepernick almost looked like Brees at times vs that defense.

Its been proven to some extent that the 3-4 is much better than the 4-3, I think the Ravens, Patriots, 49ers, many of the better defenses in the NFL is running the 3-4.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Cantlanta runs a 4-3, but stays in their nickle as the base defense, see what that did this year? Run defense sucks in the nickle

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

I think Payton was spending a lot of time reading this forum during the season and realizes we got some smart mofo's around here, so he is making a switch to the 3-4. :jester:

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

I agree ... He sure had the extra time lol

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

As for 3-4 coaches, Saints should take a look at Ed Donatell. He's the 49ers secondary coach now but has experience as defensive coordinator with Packers and Falcons. They say he's sort after in Philly but come on Sean, at least meet with him

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by papz (Post 474709)

Bring Franklin back from San Diego!

I was thinking the exact same thing. Wouldn't be tying to force a square peg into a round hole the second time around.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by neugey (Post 474879)

3-3-5 really only is a poor mans version of the 3-4 that you use if you have too small LBs. I have played it myself but I hate that scheme.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by papz (Post 474709)

Bring Franklin back from San Diego!

His total cap hit was 890k last season,would be a good cost effective move

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagan714 (Post 474864)

NT-Bunkley ? he will never hold up as NT. he got pushed all over the feild last year.

34 does not make a happy camper. I am not solid on this move at all

I was reading about the difference between a one-gap 3-4 and a two-gap 3-4.

You are right that Bunkley wouldn't be suited for a two-gap 3-4 but would be a really good fit in a one-gap 3-4.

I won't pretend I knew the difference before watching this and reading about it on another site. Here's a link that explains it.

Coach Grantham Explains One-Gap vs. Two-Gap in the 3-4 - YouTube

The Texans run a one-gap 3-4 if anyone is interested. Apparently our current personnel are nicely suited for a one-gap 3-4.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Another good explanation of the one-gap 3-4...

Quote:

The Bum Phillips 3-4 Defense
By Scott Carasik

Teams that use this defense: Houston Texans

Overview

The 3-4 defense is one of the most complex defenses in the NFL. There are muliple teams that use the Phillips 3-4 in the NFL, but we'll just go over the basic scheme that the Dallas defense uses. The Bum Phillips 3-4 is a one gap 3-4 defense and relies on quickness more than other 3-4 defenses. We'll start off with the basic alignment:

The Defensive line lines up in a natural one gap alignment. The Nose Tackle is in the strongside "A"-gap. The strongside DE is in a 6-tech on the strongside "C"-gap. The weakside DE is in a 5-tech role lined up across from the Tackle. The Middle Linebackers are shaded to the strong side a bit with the WILB or "Mike" lined up in the weakside "A"-gap and the SILB or "Ted" lined up in the strongside "B"-gap.

The secondary is in a traditional alignment with the corners lined up across from the WR's and the FS in a traditional spot at around 10 yards back from the LOS across from the weakside Tackle. The SS is at a traditional spot as well around 8 yards back from the strongside Tackle.

Defensive Line Responsibilities
In a close up you can see how the lineman are aligned better. The Nose Tackle's job is a 1-tech role. The 1-tech role is one of the most misunderstood roles in the draftnik community. Many believe that because Wade Phillips used Jamal Williams as a traditional 0-tech (lined up over the center) NT in San Diego, that it is his preferred style. But even with Jason Ferguson in Dallas, he was using the 1-tech NT. The 1-tech role is designed to be a penetrator as well as a clogger. His job is to tie up the Center and the strong-side OG so that the Linebackers can have more time to roam free and make the plays.

The basic idea behind the 1-gap Defensive Line is to control the entire offensive line. The DE's roles are to control the OT on their side of the ball. The weakside DE is supposed to be so disruptive that the weakside OG has to help the LT out in both the run and pass game. This would cause the WOLB the ability to roam free. The weakside DE is also responsible for the "B"-gap on his side in the run game. The strongside DE's job, while a more traditional 6-tech stance you would find in the 4-3, is to be a penetrator on the end. He should be able to tie up the OT and TE in the run game if blocked and provide enough push to help the blitzing OLB in the pass game come in clean. The Ideal players for this scheme based on the roles in the 2011 draft:

Phillips Strongside DE - J.J. Watt, played 4-3 DE at the University of Wisconsin

Phillips Nose Tackle - Stephen Paea, played 4-3 DT at Oregon State University

Phillips Weakside DE - Cameron Jordan, played 3-4 DE at the University of California

Linebacker Responsibilities
The responsibilities of the Linebackers in this scheme is the most complicated part of the scheme. Not only will they stunt and blitz in the pass game, but they will also be asked to cover in zone as well as man.
The SOLB will be in charge of the outside of the TE on running plays and will normally either blitz or be manned up on the TE in pass plays.
The SILB will blitz around 20-25% of the time on pass plays but normally cover an underneath zone, while in the run game is only responsible for the strong-side "B"-gap.
The WILB is covering the middle of the field in a zone on pass plays usually and will be blitzing only about 5-10% of the time. His job in the run game is to be the only guy covering 2 gaps. He is responsible for both the "A" gap in the run game, as well as cleaning up the "B"-gap if the DE decides to go to the outside shoulder of the OT in the run game.
The WOLB's job is to take care of the weak-outside, and is normally the best pass rusher on the team. He will normally be the guy who will be making the most sacks, and blitzes over 50% of the time in the passing game. The Ideal players for this scheme based on the roles in the 2011 draft:

Phillips Strongside OLB "Sam" - Justin Houston, played 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB at the University of Georgia

Phillips Strongside ILB "Ted" - Martez Wilson, played 4-3 MLB at the University of Illinois

Phillips Weakside ILB "Mike" - Quan Sturdivant, played 4-3 MLB at the University of North Carolina

Phillips Weakside OLB "Will" - Von Miller, played 4-3 OLB at Texas A&M University

Secondary Responsibilities
The secondary is lined up in a very traditional role. The scheme calls for man cover corners, whose role is to not press and bump, but rather just stick with their man. They are also expected to be ready for underneath routes and make plays on the ball. The Safeties also run in a traditional role.
The Free Safety covers the deep third, while the Strong Safety will normally cover the underneath routes in either man or zone and come up to the box quite a bit if they are expecting a run. There is not too much blitzing out of the secondary in this scheme either. The Ideal players for this scheme based on the roles in the 2011 draft:

Phillips #1 CB - Patrick Peterson, played CB at Louisiana State University

Phillips #2 CB - Prince Amukamura, played CB at the University of Wisconsin

Phillips Free Safety - Aaron Williams, played CB at the University of Texas

Phillips Strong Safety - Rahim Moore, played FS at the University of California-Los Angeles

The Bum Phillips 3-4

Our current personell looks better suited for this 3-4 than a 4-3.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

A little whacky, but it's Friday:

Jordan-Bunkley-Wilson
Jenkins/Chamberlin-Lofton-Harper-Hawthorne/Chamberlin
Greer-Quddus-Bush-Robinson/Jenkins

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papa Voodoo (Post 475099)

A little whacky, but it's Friday:

Jordan-Bunkley-Wilson
Jenkins/Chamberlin-Lofton-Harper-Hawthorne/Chamberlin
Greer-Quddus-Bush-Robinson/Jenkins

Wilson doesn't have the strength to fight off double team as a 3-4 DE, I'm thinking Jordan on one side and Hicks on the other

3-4 brilliant, but selfish!!!!

So Shawn wants to move to the 3-4 first I think it's a tremendously brilliant move......but also an extremely selfish one. If I don't explain I'm sure somebody here will get two blackandgold members to hold me whilst all members of b&g have at kicking me in the nads.......

The long and short of it is it's selfish because we already have plenty of pieces for a viable 3-4 defense here. You would really only have to draft a nt, and corners....making a defensive first round pick a long shot at best. Would you be surprised if that big ol Johnson ends up our first round selection...... He's basically giving every player on the Saints team a pass........and saying in a different scheme you guys would have been better.

Re: 3-4 brilliant, but selfish!!!!

Why CB's? Our CB's are better suited for man coverage anyway. Even Johnny Patrick may surprise some people. OK, maybe thats a stretch.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Depends on how we play the secondary... The 49ers run the 3-4 staying in man coverage most of the time. The Steelers run more of a zone 3-4, I think...

Re: 3-4 brilliant, but selfish!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by alleycat_126 (Post 475109)

But you said it yourself about having to draft a NT. Jonathan Hankins from Ohio State and John Jenkins from Georgia are two guys that could be there when we draft to fill NT.

Re: 3-4 brilliant, but selfish!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 475113)

Why CB's? Our CB's are better suited for man coverage anyway. Even Johnny Patrick may surprise some people. OK, maybe thats a stretch.

I think Marquis Johnson will surprise people.

Re: 3-4 brilliant, but selfish!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsutigerfan (Post 475117)

I think Marquis Johnson will surprise people.

Is he still on the roster.....I coulda sworn he went to IR then they gave him an injury settlement. Which would make him a FA....same thing with Greg Romeus.....I might be wrong but I for some reason I remember that being the case for both. Unless both resigned during or after the season.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Can Ingram play linebacker?

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Would also be a nice side effect, if practicing against a 3-4 every week could make Drew better against a 3-4. He struggles with that type of defense a lot. This might even help him crack that nut.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmashMouth (Post 475136)

Can Ingram play linebacker?

Probably not.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

this will interesting to watch as it unfolds and can not be as painful as last year. i hope

Re: 3-4 brilliant, but selfish!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 475113)

Why CB's? Our CB's are better suited for man coverage anyway. Even Johnny Patrick may surprise some people. OK, maybe thats a stretch.

IDK, I've seen flashes of really good play from him from time to time, although they've been far and few between, and with the right secondary coaching he could become a good nickel CB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsutigerfan (Post 475117)

I think Marquis Johnson will surprise people.

Why? I think he might follow Spags and/or Flajole to where ever they land, since if you recall, the Saints paid him off after he was injured and went on the IR, so the Saints don't have a contract with him.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

We had a great 3 - 4 once. We don't have anyone close to Jackson, Swilling,Mills and Johnson. Next year will be interesting.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

cb will be an issue. to play a 34 defense you need cb that hit. well i would not call the group we got now a bunch of hitters. white is the only one that jumps out at me that fits the mold

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Stating we are going to the 3-4 does not mean anything. It is a lot like stating and we will have a pounding ground game. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Wait, this is the internet and we all know you can't say it unless it's true, Bonjour!!!!

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagan714 (Post 475181)

cb will be an issue. to play a 34 defense you need cb that hit. well i would not call the group we got now a bunch of hitters. white is the only one that jumps out at me that fits the mold

Where did you hear that? I don't think it requires our CB's to hit any more so than a 4-3.

I've read 3-4 defenses typically use man CB's who's main responsibility is to shadow receivers.

From the 3-4 article I posted earlier...

Quote:

Secondary Responsibilities
The secondary is lined up in a very traditional role. The scheme calls for man cover corners, whose role is to not press and bump, but rather just stick with their man. They are also expected to be ready for underneath routes and make plays on the ball.

The Safeties also run in a traditional role.
The Free Safety covers the deep third, while the Strong Safety will normally cover the underneath routes in either man or zone and come up to the box quite a bit if they are expecting a run.

There is not too much blitzing out of the secondary in this scheme either. The Ideal players for this scheme based on the roles in the 2011 draft:

Phillips #1 CB - Patrick Peterson, played CB at Louisiana State University

Phillips #2 CB - Prince Amukamura, played CB at the University of Wisconsin

Phillips Free Safety - Aaron Williams, played CB at the University of Texas

Phillips Strong Safety - Rahim Moore, played FS at the University of California-Los Angeles

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

3-4 will be the wave of the future (not that it is unpopular now, per se) with the new trend of mobile QBs. You need more guys on the field that can spy the QB and move to the ball without getting lost in the back field on over pursuits.

The 3-4 puts more players on the field with speed and flexibility. You can even have a speedy LB drop into coverage and have CBs blitz without it being a huge risk.

I was raised a Steelers fan and the best days were with Lloyd, Greene, and Woodson. Those guys could rush the QB but also confuse the heck out of an offense because they were so versatile you didn't know where they were coming from.

With our current Defensive staff, a draft heavy at LB (from what I hear...I'm not an expert by any means), and Cam and Kaepernick on our schedule next year this could be a great, GREAT move for us.

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno (Post 475188)

Thanks for sharing Danno! Two Thumbs up. :bng:

Re: Saints to a 3-4???

yes i understand that point on the cb danno and i agree with the basic point it made. But I have to watch 34 here in new england and listen the bill and all the sports commentators tackling is a major key that the saints will need to address with secondary. NE has been trying to address this issue year in and year out over the past few years

In pass defense they are as the article pointed out "just stick with their man", which has been an issue its self, will require read and react skills that i have seen little of against the run. If a runner gets pass the corner containment he will ripe of a nice run. Safeties are not playing to support the CB as they do in 43. Run support is a bigger issue due to the fact the 34 olb are almost always crashing the corners in containment

While tackling is not pointed out in the basic idea of the 34 when it comes to the finer points of the 34 it is right there at top. the secondary players are on there own most of the time and when they screw up it hurts big time.

seattle has the type of CB play we need out of our CB. To be honest the secondary hitting does not scare anyone

White is the best hitting corner on the team. that is the type of play you need out of your corners in 34. He reacts quickly and goes in for the tackle. He sticks the runner and tackles. Thats what you need out of CB