Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent

K Major · 02-27-2013, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by papz

As an in the box SS, he does not suck at his position... in fact, he's above average at it. Now if you make him into a coverage safety and take away his position of strength, well then you have an average player.

It's like making a zone corner play bump and run. Asking a run stuffing NT to rush the passer. A scat back to run inbetween tackles. A pocket quarterback to start running. I'm sure you can get the picture.

While Harper may not fit the scheme anymore, he does not suck. There's a difference.

Wait, let me expound on why Harper 'sucks'.

You can't seriously sit here and say he is above average, can you? Mainly plays on blitzes and big hits within 7 yards of the LOS, which kind of makes his range a joke. There are 3-5 plays every week in which he's a total liability to the D and gets exposed. How many 7 million dollar players fit that bill? His best season came next to Sharper for a reason. We are paying him pro-bowl money to be a run stopper and blitzer, which he is better then average at, but not great. We all know he is one of the worst coverage safeties in the league. He's like the JERRY JONES of the Saints ...Horrible play = "I think I played pretty well today".

Are you ok with that?

FinSaint · 02-27-2013, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

We all know he is one of the worst coverage safeties in the league.

Would you care to back that up with actual evidence, because someone here posted stats a year ago - maybe Danno - according to which Harper had performed pretty well in situations where he had to drop back.

The stats were from a site that requires a membership, so I can't look them up for you unfortunately.

Danno · 02-27-2013, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

Would you care to back that up with actual evidence, because someone here posted stats a year ago - maybe Danno - according to which Harper had performed pretty well in situations where he had to drop back.

The stats were from a site that requires a membership, so I can't look them up for you unfortunately.

It was two years ago and I think Papz posted it. He was rated 3rd best DB in the NFL at covering TE's. Not 3rd best safety, but 3rd best DB.

He and Jenkins graded out very badly this past year, along with every member of our defense. Lofton, Vilma, Hawthorne, Robinson, and Greer ALL finished near dead last at their respective positions.

The only respectable grades were Bunkley (our best grade), Jordan and Galette. Everyone else was horrible.

blackangold · 02-27-2013, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

Would you care to back that up with actual evidence, because someone here posted stats a year ago - maybe Danno - according to which Harper had performed pretty well in situations where he had to drop back.

The stats were from a site that requires a membership, so I can't look them up for you unfortunately.

Pay attention to the second paragraph and keep in mind this was in GW schemed defense which apparently some of the posters claim he was the 3rd best cover safety. We all saw the results this year and can agree he sucked in 2012, but read bellow to examine just how 'good' he was in GWs defense.

"Roman Harper will be highly ranked as an IDP going into the 2012 season, and upon first glance that may seem legitimate considering he led his team in both tackles and sacks in 2011. However, you may want to think twice before drafting him early. Remember, Spagnuolo isn’t going to use him like Williams did. Before 2009 when Gregg Williams joined New Orleans and started using Harper like a linebacker, his stats were less impressive. In the two years Harper started pre-Greg Williams, he averaged 89.5 tackles, 2 sacks, and 1.5 interceptions per season. In his three years starting under Williams, he averaged 98.3 tackles, 3.67 sacks (7.5 last year) and 0.33 interceptions per season. Moreover, Harper went without a single interception in three of his five years as a starting safety (last year included) and has recorded only one interception over the past four seasons.

Pass coverage is by no means Harper’s strong point, as rushing the QB clearly is. In fact, Harper achieved the lowest pass coverage rating among all Saint’s defensive backs (-8.4) , according to PFF’s defensive ratings, and was just 0.3 points away from being worse than all their linebackers too. Additionally, he received the 3rd worst pass coverage rating among all starting safeties in the league, complementing his overall rating that was also good for 3rd worst among all starters (-14.9). For comparison’s sake, Harper had an inferior pass coverage rating to three of the four patriots starting defensive backs, beating James Ihedigbo by just 0.2. Considering how terrible the Patriot’s pass defense was all season, that’s an accomplishment."

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-isnt-sharper/

Pretty tough evaluation of his cover abilities. Not only was he the worst coverage DB for the saints, he was worse than all but one of our LBs... lol

Ranked by PFF to be the 75th best safety... not worth a dime in my book.

Danno · 02-27-2013, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by papz

As an in the box SS, he does not suck at his position... in fact, he's above average at it. Now if you make him into a coverage safety and take away his position of strength, well then you have an average player.

It's like making a zone corner play bump and run. Asking a run stuffing NT to rush the passer. A scat back to run inbetween tackles. A pocket quarterback to start running. I'm sure you can get the picture.

While Harper may not fit the scheme anymore, he does not suck. There's a difference.

Perfectly said.

triman · 02-27-2013, 11:25 AM

We lack star power on our defense.We need the equivalent of a Rickey Jackson type player. Hopefully we get one in this years draft

triman · 02-27-2013, 11:56 AM

IMHO it is very hard to argue that Harper is not horrible in coverage. His play doesn't merit his pay.Yes he does agreat job blitzing and is good in run support.I believe that at his number there are better options at his current price.

FinSaint · 02-27-2013, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by triman

IMHO it is very hard to argue that Harper is not horrible in coverage. His play doesn't merit his pay.Yes he does agreat job blitzing and is good in run support.I believe that at his number there are better options at his current price.

Yes, but is he really that bad or is it just a subjective thing caused by everybody saying that based on a few plays like the Seattle playoff game?

papz · 02-27-2013, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Wait, let me expound on why Harper 'sucks'.

You can't seriously sit here and say he is above average, can you? Mainly plays on blitzes and big hits within 7 yards of the LOS, which kind of makes his range a joke. There are 3-5 plays every week in which he's a total liability to the D and gets exposed. How many 7 million dollar players fit that bill? His best season came next to Sharper for a reason. We are paying him pro-bowl money to be a run stopper and blitzer, which he is better then average at, but not great. We all know he is one of the worst coverage safeties in the league. He's like the JERRY JONES of the Saints ...Horrible play = "I think I played pretty well today".

Are you ok with that?

You clearly missed the boat regarding my comment. It was laid out pretty simple already.

You don't need my approval to have an opinion. Whether or not I'm okay with it is irrelevant.

It was two years ago and I think Papz posted it. He was rated 3rd best DB in the NFL at covering TE's. Not 3rd best safety, but 3rd best DB.

I think it was within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage or something like that... and the stat came from Profooball Focus. Which then lead us to this.

-He's a pretty good blitzer.
-He plays the run well.
-He's was solid in coverage in the box.

Well what do you know... in a scheme where he's being put in position to be what he is, he doesn't suck. Now if he's being put in position to cover downfield, he's average to below average.

Now this just sounds like a broken record.

Now let me get this clear, if we move on from Harper, I'd have no issues about it. Harper didn't fit Spag's scheme... he might not fit Ryan's either. But to say he flat out sucks, that just shows clear bias.

K Major · 02-27-2013, 01:12 PM

Easy there fellow, no bias here. I just need to start watching him play through your glasses from here on out.

02-27-2013, 11:40 AM	#1
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,831 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent Originally Posted by papz As an in the box SS, he does not suck at his position... in fact, he's above average at it. Now if you make him into a coverage safety and take away his position of strength, well then you have an average player. It's like making a zone corner play bump and run. Asking a run stuffing NT to rush the passer. A scat back to run inbetween tackles. A pocket quarterback to start running. I'm sure you can get the picture. While Harper may not fit the scheme anymore, he does not suck. There's a difference. Wait, let me expound on why Harper 'sucks'. You can't seriously sit here and say he is above average, can you? Mainly plays on blitzes and big hits within 7 yards of the LOS, which kind of makes his range a joke. There are 3-5 plays every week in which he's a total liability to the D and gets exposed. How many 7 million dollar players fit that bill? His best season came next to Sharper for a reason. We are paying him pro-bowl money to be a run stopper and blitzer, which he is better then average at, but not great. We all know he is one of the worst coverage safeties in the league. He's like the JERRY JONES of the Saints ...Horrible play = "I think I played pretty well today". Are you ok with that?

02-27-2013, 11:45 AM	#2
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent Originally Posted by K Major We all know he is one of the worst coverage safeties in the league. Would you care to back that up with actual evidence, because someone here posted stats a year ago - maybe Danno - according to which Harper had performed pretty well in situations where he had to drop back. The stats were from a site that requires a membership, so I can't look them up for you unfortunately.

02-27-2013, 11:52 AM	#3
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,757	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent Originally Posted by FinSaint Would you care to back that up with actual evidence, because someone here posted stats a year ago - maybe Danno - according to which Harper had performed pretty well in situations where he had to drop back. The stats were from a site that requires a membership, so I can't look them up for you unfortunately. It was two years ago and I think Papz posted it. He was rated 3rd best DB in the NFL at covering TE's. Not 3rd best safety, but 3rd best DB. He and Jenkins graded out very badly this past year, along with every member of our defense. Lofton, Vilma, Hawthorne, Robinson, and Greer ALL finished near dead last at their respective positions. The only respectable grades were Bunkley (our best grade), Jordan and Galette. Everyone else was horrible.

02-27-2013, 03:45 PM	#4
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent Originally Posted by FinSaint Would you care to back that up with actual evidence, because someone here posted stats a year ago - maybe Danno - according to which Harper had performed pretty well in situations where he had to drop back. The stats were from a site that requires a membership, so I can't look them up for you unfortunately. Pay attention to the second paragraph and keep in mind this was in GW schemed defense which apparently some of the posters claim he was the 3rd best cover safety. We all saw the results this year and can agree he sucked in 2012, but read bellow to examine just how 'good' he was in GWs defense. "Roman Harper will be highly ranked as an IDP going into the 2012 season, and upon first glance that may seem legitimate considering he led his team in both tackles and sacks in 2011. However, you may want to think twice before drafting him early. Remember, Spagnuolo isn’t going to use him like Williams did. Before 2009 when Gregg Williams joined New Orleans and started using Harper like a linebacker, his stats were less impressive. In the two years Harper started pre-Greg Williams, he averaged 89.5 tackles, 2 sacks, and 1.5 interceptions per season. In his three years starting under Williams, he averaged 98.3 tackles, 3.67 sacks (7.5 last year) and 0.33 interceptions per season. Moreover, Harper went without a single interception in three of his five years as a starting safety (last year included) and has recorded only one interception over the past four seasons. Pass coverage is by no means Harper’s strong point, as rushing the QB clearly is. In fact, Harper achieved the lowest pass coverage rating among all Saint’s defensive backs (-8.4) , according to PFF’s defensive ratings, and was just 0.3 points away from being worse than all their linebackers too. Additionally, he received the 3rd worst pass coverage rating among all starting safeties in the league, complementing his overall rating that was also good for 3rd worst among all starters (-14.9). For comparison’s sake, Harper had an inferior pass coverage rating to three of the four patriots starting defensive backs, beating James Ihedigbo by just 0.2. Considering how terrible the Patriot’s pass defense was all season, that’s an accomplishment." https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-isnt-sharper/ Pretty tough evaluation of his cover abilities. Not only was he the worst coverage DB for the saints, he was worse than all but one of our LBs... lol Ranked by PFF to be the 75th best safety... not worth a dime in my book. K Major likes this.

02-27-2013, 11:53 AM	#5
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,757	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent Originally Posted by papz As an in the box SS, he does not suck at his position... in fact, he's above average at it. Now if you make him into a coverage safety and take away his position of strength, well then you have an average player. It's like making a zone corner play bump and run. Asking a run stuffing NT to rush the passer. A scat back to run inbetween tackles. A pocket quarterback to start running. I'm sure you can get the picture. While Harper may not fit the scheme anymore, he does not suck. There's a difference. Perfectly said.

02-27-2013, 11:25 AM	#6
triman 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 783	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent We lack star power on our defense.We need the equivalent of a Rickey Jackson type player. Hopefully we get one in this years draft
triman 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 783

02-27-2013, 11:56 AM	#7
triman 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 783	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent IMHO it is very hard to argue that Harper is not horrible in coverage. His play doesn't merit his pay.Yes he does agreat job blitzing and is good in run support.I believe that at his number there are better options at his current price. K Major likes this.
triman 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 783

02-27-2013, 12:08 PM	#8
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,963	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent Originally Posted by triman IMHO it is very hard to argue that Harper is not horrible in coverage. His play doesn't merit his pay.Yes he does agreat job blitzing and is good in run support.I believe that at his number there are better options at his current price. Yes, but is he really that bad or is it just a subjective thing caused by everybody saying that based on a few plays like the Seattle playoff game?

02-27-2013, 01:01 PM	#9
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,793	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent Originally Posted by K Major Wait, let me expound on why Harper 'sucks'. You can't seriously sit here and say he is above average, can you? Mainly plays on blitzes and big hits within 7 yards of the LOS, which kind of makes his range a joke. There are 3-5 plays every week in which he's a total liability to the D and gets exposed. How many 7 million dollar players fit that bill? His best season came next to Sharper for a reason. We are paying him pro-bowl money to be a run stopper and blitzer, which he is better then average at, but not great. We all know he is one of the worst coverage safeties in the league. He's like the JERRY JONES of the Saints ...Horrible play = "I think I played pretty well today". Are you ok with that? You clearly missed the boat regarding my comment. It was laid out pretty simple already. You don't need my approval to have an opinion. Whether or not I'm okay with it is irrelevant. It was two years ago and I think Papz posted it. He was rated 3rd best DB in the NFL at covering TE's. Not 3rd best safety, but 3rd best DB. I think it was within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage or something like that... and the stat came from Profooball Focus. Which then lead us to this. -He's a pretty good blitzer. -He plays the run well. -He's was solid in coverage in the box. Well what do you know... in a scheme where he's being put in position to be what he is, he doesn't suck. Now if he's being put in position to cover downfield, he's average to below average. Now this just sounds like a broken record. Now let me get this clear, if we move on from Harper, I'd have no issues about it. Harper didn't fit Spag's scheme... he might not fit Ryan's either. But to say he flat out sucks, that just shows clear bias. Danno and FinSaint like this.
	Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege. All little common sense goes a long way. Last edited by papz; 02-27-2013 at 01:05 PM..

02-27-2013, 01:12 PM	#10
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,831 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Breaking Down Saints Defensive Talent Easy there fellow, no bias here. I just need to start watching him play through your glasses from here on out.

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