Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

When you give up the most yards in NFL history in a season, you can expect terrible grades. But who was most to blame? This will help us examine which areas the Saints are more deficient in. Get ready, these are as ugly as you might expect. If you're interested for comparison's sake in how the team did last year, here was my 2011 write up.
Saints Nation: Pro Football Focus Scores for Saints Players in 2011 (Defense & Special Teams)

Here's how the Saints players graded out in 2012:

4-3 DE: Junior Galette graded best of the team, grading out as the 19th best 4-3 DE out of 62 graded players. He had a positive grade mostly thanks to his exceptional pass rushing scores, which were good enough for 14th best. After that, Cam Jordan graded a middle of the road 37th, and Will Smith graded 61st out of 62 players. So PFF clearly felt Will Smith was by for the most disappointing of the three. Also notable is that Cam Jordan was rated as 3rd in run defense of the 62 graded players, so that's a real positive. Even better he was second in total tackles, and first in "stops". Unfortunately his grade was hurt by poor pass rushing. Overall I think the Saints' DE play was passable with the exception of Will Smith, who could almost not have graded out worse.

DT: Out of 85 graded interior defenders, Akiem Hicks and Brodrick Bunkley ended up tied at 27th. So not bad for either. Tom Johnson wasn't far behind at 39th, and most disappointing was Sedrick Ellis who was 61st. Their best pass rusher was Johnson who ranked 19th in that category, and their best run stopper was Bunkley who ranked 12 of all 85 graded linemen. Despite never getting a sack, Ellis did get 12th of all graded players in QB Hurries. Overall the production from this position was ok for the Saints. Definitely not great, but adequate.

4-3 OLB: Of 43 linebackers that qualified to make final grading, the Saints only had two in David Hawthorne and Jonathan Vilma. Vilma ended 32nd and Hawthorne ended 36th, so needless to say both were near the bottom and the OLB play for the Saints was largely atrocious.

MLB: Curtis Lofton was the only qualifier and he came in 45th out of 53, which is shockingly low. He was the 2nd worst blitzing and the 5th worst in coverage, so those were the main reasons why he graded so poorly. He was also 5th in most missed tackles. I think most of us felt like he was the bright spot on the defense this year, but PFF does not agree.

CB: As you could have guessed, the Saints' corners didn't do well this season in the grading. Of 113 graded corners, Jabari Greer graded best at 60th overall. Patrick Robinson was a bad 89th overall, which is higher than I would have expected. Corey White was 100th, and I am floored there were 13 corners that actually did worse. Corey White did grade second best in blitzing, but was also 2nd worst (112th) at defending the run. Quarterbacks completed 77.8% of their passes when throwing to Corey White, 3rd worst of 113 players. Patrick Robinson gave up 17.6 yards per completion, 2nd worst of 113 players. P-Rob also gave up 9 touchdown passes, more than anyone. Horrible.

S: Of 88 graded safeties, Roman Harper came in 87th and Malcom Jenkins came in 88th. No joke. Isa Abdul-Quddus came in a middle of the pack 40th. In coverage, Harper was dead last and Jenkins was 4th worst. Against the run, IAQ was 5th worst and Jenkins was 6th worst. Roman Harper gave up 46 receptions, no other safety gave up for than 41. Basically the play on the back end was possibly the worst ever.

My conclusions here is the only play the Saints got that was even passable was from the defensive line with the exception of Will Smith. After that, the linebacker play and the defensive backfield (basically the back 7) was the worst ever. The safety play in particular was could not possibly be more abysmal.

K: Thomas Morstead was rated as the 7th best kickoff man this year and Garrett Hartley graded as 45th out of 56. Which is kind of whatever, his conversion percentage remains fine.

P: Morstead was rated the #2 punter in the NFL only behind LSU Tiger Donnie Jones of the Houston Texans.

ST: Courtney Roby rated as the 15th best special teamer out of over 1,000 people graded. Awesome for him, and totally deserved. The Saints are crazy if they don't re-sign him. Isa Abdul-Quddus graded poorly and was tied for 3rd in missed tackles. Seems like tackling is IAQ's issue at the moment.

KR: Out of 225 graded return men, Travaris Cadet came in 216th! Wow! Darren Sproles came in 38th. Not a good year in the return game.

Saints Nation: Pro Football Focus Scores For Saints Players in 2012 (Defense & Special Teams)


The scheme was a huge issue last year, but Smith, Harper, Jenkins and Ellis played a bigger role in our D's poor play.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Well after that postitve endorsement, only way to go is up

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

How do our coaches grade them?

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

The article is over two months old and thar Defense in its entirety does not exist anymore.

Let it go
Attachment 6511

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Unfortunately these players do exists still and 2 of them at this point will be starting which concerns me. I only bring this article up to show we really should be looking into Safety for a draft pick. Hell, Woodson is still out there and would be a good band-aid much like Sharper was.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

I'm kind of feeling the same way. Blame it on Spagnuolo's scheme or lack of pass-rush... But a blind squirrel still finds a nut every now and then. There really isn't any excuse for such horrible performances.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

No money for Woodson and I discount any article or grade that doesn't account for the Spagnuolo factor, which is huge.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

If you want to make that excuse ill post the previous years excerpt regarding Saftey.

Woodson hasn't seen much interest this FA so it is highly likely he will come cheap.

"S: I had a real bad feeling about this before I even looked it up. Roman Harper and Malcolm Jenkins were two of the worst graded starters on my player grades. Sure enough, Harper graded 82nd out of 86 graded players. Just horrible. Jenkins graded 42nd overall, or totally middle of the road, with a negative grade. There's 64 starting safeties in the NFL, so for one to grade as 42nd and another 82nd is horrifying. Basically top to bottom as you look through all the graded players, only our defensive ends (Smith and Jordan) came out as marginal, and one cornerback (Robinson) came out as pretty good. Everyone else graded as mediocre to horrible. Yuck. Our defense sucked even harder than I thought. I hate you Gregg Williams."

I really find the last two sentences funny considering how bad 2012 was.

Saints Nation: Pro Football Focus Scores for Saints Players in 2011 (Defense & Special Teams)

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Why worry about it when as fans, there is nothing we can do to change it? Just hope Harper and Jenkins improve under Ryan, nothing more we can do...

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Keep picking at the scab.....

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Old news. When your front 7 grades out the worst in the NFL your safeties are gonna struggle.

So if you're gonna bash Harper and Jenkins, you have to bash Lofton, Vilma, Greer, Robinson, White, Wilson, Smith, Ellis, and Hawthorne too

Pretty much every player that got significant PT last year was turribul, just turribul.

Here are all the PFF grades recapped (its a PPV site so no linky and only a recap)
PFF rank by position of our defenders.

Defensive Ends out of 109
Jordan 66
Smith 108
Galette 19
Wilson 33

DT out of 148
Bunkley 29
Ellis 118
Akiem Hicks 29
Johnson 42

Outside Linebackers Out of 109
Vilma 100
Hawthorne 102
Casillas 59
Wilson 81
Herring 87
Shanle 95

Inside linebackers out of 112
Lofton 104
Wilson (1 snap) 43

CB's out of 217
Greer 113
Robinson 193
Mack 72
White 203
Patrick 205
Murphy 70

Safeties out of 168
Harper 167
Jenkins 168
Bush 22
Abdul- Quddus 57

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Oh I'm still p****d at Loomis for keeping Smith around, I don't care how cheap this year

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

I wonder if PFF has ever graded out two starters at any one position, from the same team, as the worst in the NFL before Jenkins and Harper.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

I doubt it. There never been a defense this bad from front to back in recent years.

And in order for a unit to be that awful, the rest of the defense has to pitch in.

When I see so many players grading near dead last who were good players in previous years it just confirms to me that it was 90% Spags and his square peg round hole schemes.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

The first person remembered is the last one that failed.

Safety's are the last ones to miss a tackle, but no where near the first.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Well said.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

I'm not really out to insult anyone, but I'm really curious as to the criterion used in this "grading" process. As OAK has already pointed out, there are some glaring deficiencies in this rating system.

It's easy to find sports hacks out there that write something a posters agree with. It's easy to accept something as fact if that opinion is the same as the poster's. As I look at the credentials of the authors of the referenced articles, I see very little in the way of actual upper level coaching and playing experience. "Fan" seems to be at the top of the resumes and as such, that makes OAK and me equal to the authors of the referenced articles in our level of expertise.

So again I ask, how do Jenkins and Harper grade out with the real experts -our current coaches?

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Apparently better than our CB's.

And as others have pointed out, in a zone heavy scheme how does a grader know who's fault a completion is when its between the LB and Safety or the CB and Safety?

Does Bush get credit for a pick that was a horrible throw when he was 10 yards away from the intended WR? Or does that count against him as it should?

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Our defense will go way up this season. I predict we will finish somewhere in the 13th to 19th range, which isn't bad considering if we had that type of defense last year, we could have easily gone 10-6 or even 11-5 or better. The main difference could be that players simply love working with Rob Ryan and they obviously didn't enjoy working for Steve Spagnuolo. Keenan Lewis will immediately make the secondary better but we still need more help in the secondary.

Personally I hope Charles Casserly is correct when he says that Nnamdi Asomugha "can't run anymore." I hope that's right. I wish we could grab Antoine Winfield but only for the right price and if he still has some gas left in the tank after playing in the league for what seems like a thousand years.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

HARPER WILL NOT START!! Roman Harper's days as a starter are over, he if still on the team will be a situational blitzer at best that's his only attribute that isn't flawed and it wasn't there last yr even when Spgs blitzed him!
NOW FOR JENKINS, He had to cover two spots making up for Harper's lack of mobility or because Patrick Robinson blows an assignment! There was chaos in that secondary all Spotlighted by the SAFETY ROMAN HARPER!

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

I always said we should've just started Wilson and Gallette. Hopefully they both start at OLB.

Hicks and Jordan at DE. Bunkley at NT. I kept telling yall we don't need to replace him.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

this...

I didn't make this post to be pessimistic. However, the truth is our D sucked last year. Our D is going to be much better with the improvements made and the switch to the 34, which many of us have wanted for years. I am actually more optimistic about our D this upcoming year then I ever have been. I just want some new ball-hawk safety.

Rob Ryan will not only bring the 34 but he will bring the attitude that GW had... just without the bounty lol

remember this attitude!


it was something we did not have with spags... RR will get that swagger back!!

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

[QUOTE=TheOak;492166]The article is over two months old and thar Defense in its entirety does not exist anymore.



God I hope not! :(

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Harper is not restructured and there is some reason for it. I just don't know what it is.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

If they only graded 88 I would of given them 90 and 91....

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

I think Harper might be a June 1st cut. Just a gut feeling...

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

grading is cute and well kinda stupid when you have a defense like we did last year. grading out a top 16 makes sense but after that it is totally stupid in my book. when a team get desperate they do things that are well stupid. who is to blame? DC in my book takes 75% of the blame after 8 games.

All i can say is when push came to shove on key plays in the game the entire defense got pushed and shoved all over the field.

DT all spent more time pancaked on third downs and goal lines stands than tackling

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

I am really at a loss I cannot totally accept that Spags system was to blame for all this. Our worst players got exposed. Spags system worked well in the past. For that reason I am dumbfounded that we have not cut some of these guys outright. These are supposed to be pro football players and should perform at a certain level year in and year out so I am not buying it.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

I have to agree with some of the argument that scheme plays a huge role in how a player performs. I also agree with some of the questions on the rating system. One would have to know FOR EACH PLAY, what the individual player's responsibility was and compare it to the offensive call. I cannot believe that, as well as some review tapes, that they have that kind of insight into the play-by-play tactics. It takes 3 staffers breaking down the tapes 2 days to review the 80-odd snaps for each unit for each player on the field.

My bet is that there was an incredible amount of confusion and lack of off and on field communication. This was the culprit, not the athletic and recognition skills of the players.

I have to hope that the new staff's communication and organization skills will make getting on the same page more of a possibility for this same group of players. Just keep in mind that a 10% improvement will still make this unit one of history's 5 worst defenses. It's going to be a monumental effort to become simply below average.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Presently Harper is a known, ill give him a grade of 5 out of 10 for arguments sake. If he is cut now and you get into camp and what you brought in to replace him ends up being a 5 you made a move that did not make your defense any better but just cost your self 6.1M in dead money with no gain.

Its a balancing act with Harper, cutting Harper is a move the Saints will not make until they see a move worth making. Harpers Salary this year is 5.2M, ods are that someone will draft a Safety that is as good as that teams present 6 or 7 but cheaper, and cut their Safety or want to trade their Safety allowing us to pick up something better than Harper at the same price. This plays into the 49ers and Falcons being high on draft picks and low on cap, and them having to get rid of people.

Worst case scenario, we keep him and know what to expect.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

Watch the reruns of the games. There'd be ball carriers and receivers consistently running with no one within five yards of them. You can say the defense was out of position once in a while, but as often as it happened you've gotta say the players were assigned to be in the wrong position. Oh yeah, whose job was it to teach tackling? Even pros need to learn, to be taught and need to practice their skills. If they didn't then the teams wouldn't need to hire coaches in the first place. When coaches see something as being deficient, it's their job to work on it with their players. As far as Spags' system working, he was a DC for exactly two years inheriting a very well coached group of players including a stellar defensive line. He was the one that was exposed, inheriting an average group of defensive players that he couldn't coach to play average. And average was all we really needed.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

And thats also why I question any 3rd party grading system. If the players were unsure of who was supposed to do what, how can some grader not associated with our team know it?

There were also lots of passes completed just over our LB's. Did the LB not cover deep enough? Were the safetties playing too deep? Did the LB/CB not cover their zone correctly?

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

When players are under a bad coach they generally return to bad habits that good coaches broke them of long ago.

Re: Worst ever for Jenkins and Harper
 

At some point there is STILL some personal accountability.
Missed tackles (IMHO) are personal, or should be.
Dropped picks are also personal, but you kinda have to be in position to drop one.
Not being able to run a tightend down after he gets a step is just sad.
Being 5'11" across the back doesn't help either.
We were slow to react, slow at the top-end, and just slow.
3-4 requires even more sideline to sideline fleet-of-foot from the box.
I don't care how they stop the leaking. Our offense just deserves better help.