Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Sources on Thursday said the Saints have re-entered trade talks with Green Bay about cornerback Mike McKenzie. The sources also said another NFL team is involved.

The Saints have discussed the trade with the Packers for the six-year veteran since the spring, but Green Bay has asked for a first-round draft pick in return, a price the Saints aren't willing to meet.

An NFL source said the Saints have offered a second-round draft pick and a lower-round pick or a player.

The NFL trade deadline is Oct. 19.

http://www.nola.com/saints/t-p/index...9001232350.xml

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

:puke: Wait a minute...
I thought that Craft was supposed to solve all our problems at CB?

This so typically Haslett--pass on every free agent CB this offseason because they are too expensive and we don\'t need them anyway. But now Haslett is fixated beyond all reason on McKenzie like Ahab was his whale. McKenzie is going to cost us minimum 3 million a year and 2 picks. The picks don\'t worry me much because Haslett can\'t pick worth a used Kleenex anyway.

:bandhead: What is infuriating is; now it\'s a crisis and we can\'t wait one more day to address the CB position. And our solution just HAS to be McKenzie. I smell a whole new line of lame excuses from Haslett--\"We added Mike mid-season and it took him several weeks to get up to speed with our scheme, blah, blah, blah.\"

I\'m pretty sure I\'ve seen this movie and I wanted my money back the first time.

:kerry:

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

BMG, I know that Haz isn\'t the ONLY guy who gets to make picks, but are you saying that Haz is terrible in the draft, because I have to disagree. I may be mistaken, but weren\'t these guys \"Haz\'s\" picks:

McAllister
Stallworth
Grant
Houser
Bentley
Sullivan
Holland
O\'Sullivan
W. Smith
Hodge
Karney
Watson

Now not all these guys are super stars, but some are and all are solid NFLers. Perhaps Sully has been a disappointment, but from what I\'ve seen so far W.Smith is a man-beast and Karney is going to be a fine lead blocker. Stallworth and McAllister - yeah, those guys blow.

While I certainly agree that not selecting a freakin\' corner is a major brain cramp, I certainly don\'t think the guys he\'s picked sucked. I am also certain that our draft record is NO WORSE than most if not all other teams.

Wouldn\'t you say?

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Hell, look at the value we get in the later rounds. Some players from the 6th and 7th rounds may or may not make their teams rosters and 5th rounders usually spend a year or two on the practice squad. Kelly was our 6th from the 2003 draft and he was cut, but Gardner, a 7th rounder, is now on the 53 man roster. Leslie and Karney, both our 5th rounders, as well as our 7th round choice, Bockwoldt, were good enough to skip being assigned to the practice squad, and are on the roster. With the exception of drafting Sullivan over Trufant, I\'ve never had any problems with the way this team drafts.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

IMHO:
TALENT isn\'t the problem with this team, although I will admit a couple upgrades would help.

This team drafts well
This team does not develop players very well.

But, BTTT:

I\'ve read several other boards and the rumor seems to imply we\'re offering a 2nd and a 4th for MM.

I\'d be inclined to jump on that.

What do ya\'ll think? Too costly still?

Personally I\'d rather get a SLB somehow but MM is an upgrade.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

the normally loquacious Horn has tempered the trash talk. On Thursday he refused to be coaxed into providing any bulletin-board material for the St. Louis Rams, the Saints\' opponent Sunday at the Edward Jones Dome.



Thanks Saintfan for this info. I made a comment about this same thing the other day and BandB jumped all over it. Well this proves what I was saying. Horn is famous for his trash talk and it HAS hurt this team.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

No, I\'m not. After reviewing my statement, I left the wrong impression. My frustration with Haslett is that he\'s spent 3 years saying we don\'t need to draft a CB and don\'t need to pay big money for a free agent CB. But now all the sudden, it is imperative that we give up quite a bit and spend quite a bit to go get a guy midseason.

My frustration is that if McKenzie is such a critical need, make the big trade for him last month. My frustration is if we have a urgent need for a CB, why not make a good faith effort to have gotten one in free agency? I cannot grasp the decision making of this organization most of the time.

As an aside, I think we rate about a C on drafting. The Sullivan/Stinchcomb series is looking worse all the time, even though some of our drafts have been quite good.

:kerry:

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

I\'m inclined to agree with you now BMG.

I think this team has done VERY poorly in free agency. However, I think it has done exceptionally well in the draft under Haz.

Your argument makes some sense to me, if we needed a CB so badly, why didn\'t we get one earlier. I think there are two responses here, so tell me what you think:
1. We got Craft and at the time, we still thought we had something in Craver, and who would have thought that Ambrose would have gotten THAT slow.
And,
2. The asking prices were very high for mid-grade CBs. If we wait we can get a mid-grade CB for less. As I recall GB was asking for a first rounder for McKenzie (who is probably a high mid-grade corner). That sounds too high to me.

I think many of us thought MM would worth a 2nd rounder and potentially a 5-7th too. Thus, I am interested in how people would answer Danno\'s question. I guess, it is my view that a second and a fourth is a bit high, but not unreasonable having seen our secondary play this year. I am certainly a big Ambrose fan, but I don\'t think he\'s a corner anymore - he\'s probably a NB or SS.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Danno, as for your point regarding the development of talent (which I\'m sure deserves its own thread), what do you say about these guys:
McAllister, Stallworth, Lewis, Glover (maybe he doesn\'t really count since he was good from the moment he arrived), S. Knight, Horn, B. Williams, and Holland? Perhaps, we\'re just not very good at developing Defensive talent? It is not clear to me that we are THAT bad at working our new guys into shape even relative to other teams.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

All I know is this if Mitch can\'t go and the last resort is Bouman I think where screwed. A backup qb punting this is wacked. Why not just throw it 70 yards instead lmao. Of course they did say Carney may punt thats not too bad.

[Editat el 24/9/2004 per blackroses]

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Is Berger hurt? I hadn\'t heard that. That would be troubling.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Yeah atleast from the article in on the link it says He pulled his groin if you scroll down to etc. Right before high praise.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

I don\'t know I think Mckenzie would be a cancer on defense if you know what I mean. Who is too say he won\'t pull the same stuff come
contract talks again. Than again he probably has leadership skills who knows.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

At the time, I thought Craft was more of a stopgap measure. I found myself wondering whether Craft would have even made the roster in Jax. As for Craver, that\'s a good point, I thought he would have been much better than he proved to be, at the same time, the staff had to know that he wasn\'t developing beyond a nickel or dime back.

At any rate, having them run drills against Stallworth or Horn should have let us know what exactly we had in the secondary. I can see where you\'re coming from on draft day and it makes some sense. During mini camp and certainly not later than camp, we should have known exactly where we stood in the secondary. If McKenzie really is who we need, it seems like we should have known before preseason.

I agree, the sticking point doesn\'t seem to just be what GB wants, but what McKenzie thinks he\'s worth. I am left with the impression that MM thinks he\'s worth elite CB kind of money. I\'m not sure that a guy who is marginally better than what we\'ve got is going to merit a big cap hit.

Mostly I\'m irate at a front office and coaching staff that has been claiming our secondary is fine for several years and now that the season is underway identify MM as a critical need for us. It\'s like pulling a cooked steak off the grill and then saying, \"hey let\'s bake some potatos while we have the grill fired up. Do we have any potatos?\"

:kerry:

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

We keep saying McKenzie would be a cancer to our team, well if we get cancer and win I don\'t care, he will still be the best DB we have when we get him this weekend for a second and 6 round pick.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Props to BMG here. Can I hear again about how we don\'t need a CB, how drafting ANOTHER D-linemen will make this team so much better? They\'ll be able to stop the run and the pass rush will help the secondary. How many sacks do our exaulted front 4 have so far this year again?

It amazes me how everyone forgets that two months ago many many people were talking about a corner like he wasn\'t worth much more than a punter. Man, all I can do is shake my head.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Might I ask you which CB you think we should have taken when our turn came up. Instead of Will Smith, who would you have drafted?

How many games have they been on the field together? What number leads the league?

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

McCalister, Stallworth, Grant, Houser, LeCharles Bently, Sedrick Hodge, & O sullivan are Randy Mueller picks

*Sullivan could of been Trufant
*Holland could of been Bradie James
*Will Smith could of been Kenech Udeze and a extra pick in the draft if they trade down w/Miami
*Karney could of been pick w/the extra pick if we would\'ve traded down in the 1st rd.
*Watson the only pick i give :thumbup: to

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Be careful bayouking, Saintfan\'s aneurysm might rupture with too many posts like that. :biggrin:

You make a valid point, our best picks did seem to be the one\'s Randy was in charge of.

:kerry:

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

BK, if Meuller was making those picks in a vaccuum, I agree. The reason, it seems to me, people keep blaming Haz for bad picks when Loomis is technically in charge of that is that Haz has some say (just like he did in the Meuller picks). It is unfair to blame Haz in one case and not praise him in the other - unless I\'m missing something?

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

BMG,

Well said here:
I couldn\'t agree more. Many of us, as WhoDat will recall, have been claiming that our secondary is in sore shape since mid-offseason (myself and Danno included).

We need new coaching and soon! And, as my standard rant goes, we need a good GM even sooner.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

I\'ve been fighting the moonshiners on this for years.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

WeLL Charameill I guess you proved a valid point again. As I said before Mckenzie has leadership qualities also. I\'m just concerned come contract talks he is gonna pull the same stuff.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

With the sixth pick of the 2003 NFL Draft the New Orleans Saints pick Marcus Trufant... er... Some fat guy.

LMAO. And we\'re the fanatics? Haslett can\'t be wrong in some situations and right in others? Brooks can\'t play well one week and not the next? One thing is for sure, it is all or nothing with some of you. LOL

Likewise, you all completely discount comments when some us make favorable ones about Haslett or Brooks as simply a ploy, a setup, or a momentary lapse of reason. I call it like I see it. That\'s why I\'m all over Brooks when he fumbles 3 times in a game, and in here patting him on the back after a week like last week. That\'s why I\'m all over Haslett when his poor planning or adjustments kill us and I\'m in here giving him props when... wait... he never has outcoached anybody, but when it happens I\'ll give him props. Fair? ;)

[Edited on 25/9/2004 by WhoDat]

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Not what I meant. You know this, but feel the need to save face...again. ;)

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

My point was that without additional evidence, there is no reason to say that Haz doesn\'t get credit when Mueller made the picks and gets blame when Loomis made them.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

You\'re right JKool - Haslett deserves some credit for the Mueller moves if he gets flak for the moves since then. This team has made some great moves over the last four plus years. Some moves that have loaded this team with more talent than, IMO, any other Saints team has ever had. Why then can this team not make the playoffs? Why can it not improve?

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

This is just part of a article that will let everyone know who evaluate & drafted player(s) in 2000-02


I\'m more of a hands-on owner,\" Benson said. \"In some cases, decisions were made without me.\"

He said he was not told that running back Ricky Williams was going to be traded to the Miami Dolphins in March.

Mueller inherited a team with little talent and few draft picks. But he rebuilt the roster with productive free agents and shrewd trades, including acquiring quarterback Aaron Brooks from Green Bay.

Mueller came to the Saints from the Seattle Seahawks, where he built a reputation as a savvy evaluator of talent after becoming the team\'s vice president of football operations in 1995.

http://www.ottawalynx.com/Slam020509/nfl_mue-ap.html

Mueller joined New Orleans in January 2000, when the team revamped its staff after going 3-13 in 1999, and he soon hired head coach Jim Haslett.

Mueller inherited a team with few high draft picks, thanks in large part to the deal for Ricky Williams. But Mueller rebuilt the roster with productive free agents and shrewd trades, including acquiring quarterback Aaron Brooks from Green Bay.

HMMM it didn\'t say anything bout Haslett rebuilding the roster,if so he will be fired to.. If I continue to research I am sure to find Haslet rebuilding the roster but I believe it will start from 2003-04

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

no that doesnt have anything to do with haslett. but i would agree that most of our best draft choices were becuase of mueller. thats the problem. we need him back.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

I am sorry to tell you but Mueller had a BIG ego and he didn\'t relinquish the rights for anyone to tell him who to release, sign or draft. That is the main reason he was fired, however the guy had a eye for evaluating players.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

BK,

I recognize your argument as much better now. I remain unconvinced, but that is only due to my ignorance of how much say each individual got/gets on draft day. I guess, as of now, I don\'t have enough evidence to blame/praise Haz, Loomis, or anyone else for our recent picks.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

Listen guys, there is no doubt that Haslett has much more say in personnel nowthen he did with Mueller at the helm. It\'s common sense. Mueller is a football guy - a scout. He was the guy in charge of making all of the personnel decisions, and like it or not he did that mostly on his own and mostly right.

Loomis is a finance guy - a businessman. In the current setup, Loomis isn\'t going out and scouting talent like Mueller did. He\'s making sure that we have one of the best cap situations in the league.

I\'m not commenting here one way or the other as to which situation is better or worse. I am saying, however, that the reality of the situation is that Haslett has more say and more control now then he did when Mueller was here.

As for Mueller being a control freak - that\'s a tough one. Think about it. Sure, the owner is the owner - you work for him you have to listen to him. But when the owner is keeping you from doing your job as best you can, do you blame a guy for saying - Tom, as a professional scout I think I know football a little better than a car dealer. Just sit back and let me get you the best players I can... ???? There\'s nothing wrong with that either, and basically two egos got in the way. Unfortunately for the Saints IMO, the wrong one won.

Saints back in hunt for CB McKenzie
 

I don\'t believe I ever said that. I made two points:

1) That the two impact corners in the draft (Robinson and Hall) were long gone.
2) The Saints couldn\'t afford a top tier free agent upgrade.

[/quote:aebf825f22] They\'ll be able to stop the run and the pass rush will help the secondary. How many sacks do our exaulted front 4 have so far this year again?
I said that MM would cost too much and be too disruptive. I still believe both of those things.

And the defense\'s problem is the run game. 174 YPG average! Yipes!!!

SFIAH