Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Okay, we beat the Chiefs yet we still give up almost 200 yards to a back-up running back and over 300 to Trent Green. But we win. Cool. How many people wanna bet the Saints get the ever familiar big head now and get it handed to them in the next game by Denver? Are the problems fixed? No. We just played a defense as terrible as ours and we came out on top. Brooks fumbled again and Boo fumbled, but we recovered them both. Glad to see McKenzie get an INT. Hope he wasn't covering Kennison all day. I almost found myself being glad we won, until I realized this wasn't the Superbowl and we have more games to be either Jeckyll or Hyde. Please oh please oh please Saints don't tease me. If you are gonna be winners and outscore people, DO IT!!! Don't dig your heads in the sand again next week or just go ahead and lose out. NO more schizophrenia. Be consistently one way or the other. Please.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Hey, we\'ll have plenty more oppertunities to lament our mistakes ;) . Let\'s enjoy this one for a few days.

[Edited on 14/11/2004 by G504]

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Whodi,

I\'m with G504 on this one.

Just enjoy it for a few days. Denver is next. When that sinks in, I\'m sure I\'ll start worrying again; until then, don\'t worry, be happy now.

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I understand what you guys are saying, but i\'m not gonna do this to myself again. Not after we gave up over 500 yards to a team without their best offensive weapon. I won\'t. Call me a pessimist, but this win made me more uneasy than a loss. Biggest fears: Haslett stays cause of some fluke wins, we somehow end up 9-7 or 8-8 and make the playoffs to get blown out in the 1st week, we beat Denver, get our hopes up, and lose to teams like Carolina and Tampa to sink into 7-9 and picking 18th in the draft, again. I won\'t do it.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Whodi,

Do you really think a loss hurts more because of your hopes? I\'m not convinced that it does. The pessimist argument is always that the optimists get their hearts broken more often. Don\'t all our of our hearts break when our boys lose? I don\'t think it has much or anything to do with your stance prior to the game (i.e. deep down, I believe, the pessimists are secretly hoping for a win, even when they predict a loss).

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

I\'m starting the embrace the frustration. Every time I figure the casket has been lowered and dirt thrown on it, the ZOMBIE LIVES!

Yesterday we lost power about 15 minutes before game start. Decided to run some errands because the house was going to get cold and the Saints corpse isn\'t moving... But THE ZOMBIE LIVES!!

So then what happens? You start to think about the fact that other than Atlanta and Philly, everyone one else in the NFC is 5-4 and 4-5, including Team Inconsistent. Then the hope starts to creep in... Outshoot Denver next week (because we know we\'re going to give up 400+ yards and 20+ points already on Monday) coupled with a Falcons loss to the Giants (wouldn\'t that be sweet?!) would (I can\'t even imagine writing this) setup Team Inconsistent for a post Thanksgiving showdown for getting within a game of the NFC South division lead, with a second late December game lined up against the hated Falcons.
Or with the way that the Giants, Minnesota, and Seattle are tanking, that the last wildcard spot may still be open at 9-7...

NO! NO!!! Don\'t think such hopeful thoughts! The Madness! THE MADNESS!!!

Like I said a couple of week ago. At this point all we can do is shoot it out every game and hope the other team shoots itself in the foot enough for us to eek out a win.

Thanks KC. Let\'s see if Denver will do the same.

SFIAH

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A win is a win. Whether we give up 1,000 yds. on the ground or air in one game, the only stat that counts is the score. We must not forget that. So enjoy the win guys.

I think the Saints are played better in this game than many others I have seen. They were playing like a 4-12 team. But in this game they looke like an 8-8 team. So although that is much better, let\'s break out the grains of salt.

The commentator during the game mentioned how the Saints and Haz were looking for any momentum, and their stop of the Chiefs (six plays inside the ten) sparked the team. Well, momentum can change things. So who knows?

I honestly thought our season was over, and I could actually get things done on Sundays, rather than watching the Saints and then any team that may have a chance of taking our playoff spot (translated all NFC teams). I totally understand the frustration about this team. I share it, but I was deep down so glad they won this game.

I hope Benson has set a high goal for Haz to stay, like having to win in the playoffs. I hope we don\'t keep Venturi and McCarthy at least. Benson may have to keep Haz, but there HAS to be a change at DC. Has to be.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

JKool,

I think the optimist heart does get broken more. I loved the analogy someone used of the Saints being a crazy girlfriend. The pessimist loves her, but knows she is crazy, and prone to do something crazy at any moment and therefore when the time comes, they had been expecting it. The optimist on the other hand loves the crazy girl, but every time she does something crazy it tears him down cause he is always expecting her NOT to be crazy. He has yet to come to terms with the fact that the girl is indeed crazy, and will continue to be so until she gets help.

That\'s our Saints. They are inconsistent heartbreakers and will continue to be so until there are major changes. So now everyone is on the \"a win is a win\" bandwagon when a win is the worst thing for this team. Haslett should have been fired before this season started and definitely after the San Diego game but every garbage win gives new life to him sticking around and that is the most heartbreaking thing of all. I accepted the team losing this season cause it was a means to an end. You gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelette type deal. Now with every NFC team being mediocre or worse, each win will allow Haz to say we had a better record than team A, B, C, D, E, and F and possibly keep his job. That almost makes me wanna cry.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Alright Whodi, I\'m with you.
The win makes me feel good, but it\'s a shallow victory, and I see how fragile that good feeling is. It\'s like trying to walk across a pond the first day after a hard freeze. I might be able to walk out on the ice a bit, but I can feel it cracking under my feet.
The ice is: special teams coverage of Dante Hall, with the exception of the opening kickoff. Jason Craft making some heads up plays. Two interceptions by our defense. Joe Horn and Deuce McAllister. Aaron Brooks unleashing his cannon of an arm. Mike Karney\'s catch and rumble, Defense in the red zone.
Then the water under the ice is : No pressure on Trent Green, and rarely blitzing in order to get pressure, Nearly 500 yards total offense allowed, Zone coverages that are so soft receivers don\'t have defenders within 3 steps of them consistantly, A game ball awarded to Victor Riler although he had a false start, and Aaron was harrassed all day, not just from his side but from everywhere.
By the way, that was my analogy of the psycho girlfiend. I\'m glad others can relate.

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FOB,

It was definitely a good analogy, one that I can relate to as I had a pyscho girlfriend who I loved, and am a lifelong Saints fan. It hit me on two levels. I just want consistency from this team. Either consistently lose or consistently win(in this season. For the coming years consistently win only). And I definitely don\'t want to count on the other team helping us to a win every week. I would feel so much better if we just hadn\'t given up so much yardage to Blaylock and Kennison. That killed me.

[Edited on 15/11/2004 by saintswhodi]

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Whodi and FOB,

I agree that the \"a win is a win\" line is not sufficiently nuanced. Certainly, there are good and bad wins. However, wins are good and loses are bad - I\'m not one for this losing will make us better stuff. Having a losing attitude will cause players to want to jump ship, make it harder to sign free agents, and all in all get a team a bad rep. These are things that I don\'t want for our boys. I don\'t understand why people are willing to suffer these consequences and loss after loss just to get a higher draft pick. I think we\'re getting a new coach either way, so I don\'t put a lot of stock in that argument.

As for the crazy girlfriend analogy, are you saying that pesimists are suited for dating crazy girls? I think the pesimist who continues to date the crazy girl secretly thinks that she won\'t be crazy the next time (otherwise, why would he stick with her).

I like the thin ice analogy, but I don\'t think it captures the difference between optimists and pessimists. Half empty or half full - the difference between the two positions is NOT factual, it is merely in how one veiws the situation. Thus, I argue that there is no interesting distinction between the two positions, except in how they describe THE SAME FACTS.

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seems like someone was reading pro weekly of 2003

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OK I\'ve had enough.
1. Yea, we beat KC when no one thought we could.
2. Yea, we still look bad.

Now, can we talk about what/who looked good Sunday instead of harping on every negative everyone already knows about?

Nobody is claiming we\'re superbowl bound so we don\'t need \"reality checks\" from anyone.

1. The O-line played better
2. WR\'s caught the ball
3. When they stacked the line we passed
4. When the played base, we ran
5. Deuce looks almost 100%
6. When the D needed a stop, they got one.
7. Karney looks awesome
8. McKenzie plays with a passion I haven\'t seen here in years.
9. The whole team didn\'t quit like I predicted they would.
10. Haz was getting in some faces, and they responded.
11. Haz/Venturi will still be fired regardless.

See? Eleven positives! No sunshine blowing!
And no brilliant \"yea you guys are clueless, we still suck\" replies.

ITS OK TO ENJOY A WIN!!!

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

As for positives, I gotta admit I was pleasantly surprised at the crowd Sunday. Not that the game was a sellout (it clearly wasn\'t), and not that I didn\'t see some paper sacks (I did). But after the initial system-shock of Dante Hall\'s opening kick return, and when Deuce started moving the ball, the fans started to warm back up. By the end of the game, all bags had disappeared and I\'m pretty sure the crowd noise was getting to Green.

It\'s a win ... I\'m happy ...

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Not from what I heard Danno. As I understand it Brooks was under pressure EVERY pass.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

JKool,

I think you are looking too deep into the analogy. It is very surface. Both are dating a crazy chic and both are looking at it differently. Not that a pessimist is better suited to date a crazy chic. The reason he won\'t leave her is the same reason noone here will ever stop being a Saints fan, cause we love them. All of us. A pessimist can love the crazy chic but understand she is crazy. He stays cause he loves her, not cause he is expecting anything different. Hello Saints. We still root for them cause we love them, and we all KNOW we aren\'t getting anything different than what we have gotten the last 3 years.

And the whole point of optimist/pessimist was things are being seen two different ways. It fits exactly. There is the optimistic a win is a win what about the playoffs bunch and there is the Hello haven\'t we seen this movie already crowd. The optimists are just expecting a different outcome of the same movie they have watched 3 years straight. Trust me, Neo still takes the red pill and gets out of the Matrix. It\'s not gonna change until the people making the movie change or it is remade, which I am hoping the Saints get remade.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Whodi,

I like your points, but it always sounds like this to me: optimists are stupid and pessimists aren\'t. Recall the glass example - the glass is half full/empty. Neither person is smarter than the other here (they just talk about it differently), and that is a paradigm case of the distinction.

Here is another way to take the girl friend example. The pessimist is expecting it, but still loves her - so he is less shocked, but he is just expecting the crazy and unhappy that goes with sticking with her. The optimist is also expecting it, but still loves her - however, he continues to think there is something cute or sweet or impossibly endearing about the crazy - now he is better equiped to deal with it.

Again, I just don\'t see that this pessimism/optimism thing is all that important to one\'s enjoyment of football (or even as important to one\'s discussion of football). It is helpful to remember people communicate differently about the facts, certainly, but one just isn\'t better than the other. I think one could have either stance and enjoy our team just as much - just in different ways, as it should be.

The optimists are NOT expecting a (radically) different outcome, they just take the day by day differently.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Okay Kool. I won\'t disagree with you. Possibly it shouldn\'t be looked at as optimist/pessimist, but that is the example that was used. I am not sayign anyone is stupid for how they look at anything, and never would, unless it was true. I applaud you guys who can keep getting kicked in the gut, and smile when you are occasionally handed a treat. My gut, pudgy as it is, can\'t take any more. As I said, I would love it if we won out and stormed into the playoffs, but we all know that\'s not gonna happen. All of us. What is gonna be the stance if we end up 8-8 and Haslett is back next year? And we pick 17th, 18th, orr 19th in the draft and forced into the best player available line again cause all the impact guys are gone again. Look at Carolina. Not only will they get a top 5 draft pick a year after going to the Superbowl, their key players will be healthy next year. I hate this scenario more than anything cause we are playing ourselves out of an impact player to hope to compete without drastic changes.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Whodi,

As usual, you and I more or less agree when it comes down to it.

I don\'t think Haz will be back either way (especially if we miss the playoffs, which I suspect we will).

I think the team needs to be much more agressive druing FA - the draft will once again give us a bunch of projects as opposed to an impact player, but high draft picks have as much risk as payoff (see Sully as a prime example).

I think that the best way to build our team is FA, given that we currently have youth (and, yes, some of it is talented). We need at least one proven LB and and either a proven CB or DT (we can draft for the other).

Thus, I think our position in the draft is much less important than (1) a coaching change, (2) an aggressive FA strategy, and (3) team morale and pride.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

PS - Thanks for the intelligent discussion. I have been enjoying it very much.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

No problem Kool but as you and I both know, if Loomis is here, free agency will be a frugal experience once again, leaving drafting an impact player our only option. Now if Loomis is gone, I think we can be very active in free agency and will have to be dependent on draft position. And with Haz\'s contract, I am not sure anything will get him fired except losing out.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Hmmm, I\'ll have to think about that one.

However, this year, Loomis tried to distance himself from Haz after the start of the season started to look bad. The only reason to do this is that he felt his job might be on the line with Haz\'s. So, perhaps he realizes that he must do his job better too - of course, that may be wishful thinking. It would be good to hear evidence one way or the other, if anyone has some?

Will Loomis stay unless we lose out? What say you B&G?

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I am very interested to see if that would be the case also.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

Well, Loomis did play some role in Benson\'s recent wedding. Dunno if that means he\'ll keep the job, but Benson\'s probably not above a little brown-nosing. The brief snippets of news I read regarding Loomis vs. Haslett (on nola.com I think, but I can\'t find them now) didn\'t leave me with the impression that Haz was even invited to said wedding.

If that\'s the case, how funny would it be if Haz did turn this thing around? Benson might\'ve married him, instead!

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I didn\'t say they were the GB Packers O-line, I said they played better.
I watched the game and it looked to me like they played much better, especially versus the run. Maybe not so much versus the pass, but I did see some holes opening up for Deuce. Its something I hadn\'t seen in 8 games. Compared to the 1st 8 games I belive they played better.
Brooks was under pressure, but mostly from blitzing. Its up to the RB, FB, and the QB to handle that.

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

GOD!! I hope not. I blame LoomBoom for the faults of the Saints. With his \"guidance\" we have such notables as \"two firsts\" Sullivan, Jon Stinchcomb, and Cie Grant. But, we are \"fast\" and we have tons of \"cap room.\" We can\'t play football, and we don\'t know how to run a Professional Football Franchise, but we\'re \"Fast.\" We need someone like Scott Pioli(sp) from New England that will put a noose around the neck of any head coach hired. Also, he needs to hire the Coordinators, not Benson. From Benson we got Mike(Carl Smith in Disguise) McCarthy, and Rick (Rant and Rave down the sideline) Venturi.

I pine for the days of Jim Finks and Jim Mora. We coulda been something had Finks stayed alive. :weepy:

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

1. The O-line played better
2. WR\'s caught the ball
3. When they stacked the line we passed
4. When the played base, we ran
5. Deuce looks almost 100%
6. When the D needed a stop, they got one.
7. Karney looks awesome
8. McKenzie plays with a passion I haven\'t seen here in years.
9. The whole team didn\'t quit like I predicted they would.
10. Haz was getting in some faces, and they responded.
11. Haz/Venturi will still be fired regardless.
Danno, I agree with you on 2-9.
I didn\'t see 10, but that\'s great if he got fired up.
I pray for 11.
And I\'ll give you 1. Instead of a D, they get a D+

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I\'m still learning to use quotes.
JKool, it seems as if you and Whodi hashed this out pretty well, I don\'t want to open another can, but I just want to say that the analogies weren\'t supposed to be cut and dry opptimist/pessimist comparisons or outlooks at all. They are simply used to identify emotions and feelings about the precarious business of being a Saints fan. Neither optimistcally or pessimistically but rather realistically.

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FOB,

I like it. I was pretty sure that was what everyone was getting at, but sometimes it is hard to tell.

Cheers. :D

Why do we do this to ourselves??????
 

PS - The optimism/pessimism thing was just something I had some pent up rage about, so I want to thank you (FOB) and Whodi for engaging in an intelligent discussion of it.