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Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
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(Mike Triplett)
BATON ROUGE, La. -- New Orleans Saints general manager Mickey Loomis shot down the notion Wednesday that the Saints and tight end Jimmy Graham will aim to strike a new deal by the middle of this month. A report by Pro Football Talk last month cited a source as saying the two sides would try to reach a long-term contract agreement before the April 22 deadline for Graham to file a grievance over his franchise-tag designation. Graham was officially designated as a tight end, though it’s expected that Graham and agent Jimmy Sexton will file the grievance to argue that he should be considered a wide receiver based on where he lined up most often last season. “Look, I’m always optimistic. But there’s no deadline here,” Loomis said when asked if that April 22 date was being used as a target. Loomis, who spoke to the media while attending LSU’s pro day, declined to give any specific updates on how talks are developing with Graham. But he seemed to indicate that the pace hasn’t picked up much since the Saints first placed the franchise tag on Graham more than a month ago. When asked for the most rational way for fans to look at the situation, Loomis cracked, “Well, when does training camp begin?” “I don’t have an answer for that,” Loomis continued. “That’s a two-way street. You know, you guys [in the media] have been through this lots of times. I think all of us would rather have things done sooner rather than later, but it doesn’t always happen that way. So we’ll keep going, well keep at it in the process. Obviously we want to have Jimmy Graham on our team when training camp begins, and I am sure he wants to be with us. “So we’ll just keep plugging away at the process. He’s got a great agent. And all his people, they know what they’re doing, and so do we. Hopefully we’ll come to a conclusion at some point.” Saints owner Tom Benson gave a similar response during the NFL meetings last month when asked about the timetable for a new Graham deal, suggesting that he wouldn’t be surprised to see talks drag out like they did with franchised quarterback Drew Brees until July two years ago. However, the potential grievance could throw a wrinkle into things. If Graham does file a grievance, then his case would eventually be heard by a third-party arbitrator, who would be agreed upon by the NFL Management Council and the NFL Players Association. If that arbitrator agrees that Graham should be considered a wide receiver, his franchise-tag salary would soar from $7.05 million to $12.3 million. That decision would give one side tremendous leverage in its long-term contract negotiations. So it remains possible that both the Saints and Graham’s camp would ultimately prefer to work out a deal on their own terms before it reaches the point of an arbitrator’s decision. One way or another, Graham will almost certainly become the highest-paid tight end in NFL history, surpassing Rob Gronkowski’s $9 million average with the New England Patriots. The biggest question is whether Graham’s deal will be closer to $10 million per year or $12 million. New Orleans Saints' Mickey Loomis: No deadline for Jimmy Graham deal - ESPN |
Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
Im a little confused and down right bored with this thought process that Jimmy played in the slot so is a WR rather than a TE.
What does Slot Receiver Mean? A type of receiver in football who lines up between the split end ("X receiver") and flanker ("Z receiver") and the center and is eligible to receive the ball. This type of receiver is also known as a "slot receiver" or "tight end". Wes Welker, Percy Harvin, Danny Amendola, and Victor Cruz are all examples of top notch slot receivers. Slot Receiver Definition Sporting Charts explains Slot Receiver A Y receiver will be lined up between the split end or the flanker and the linemen. The position on the field is determined by which of the other receivers the Y receiver is paired up with. If paired with a flanker, the Y receiver will be on the scrimmage line. If paired with a split end, the Y receiver will be off the line of scrimmage. Y receivers specialize in either catching the ball and being an outlet receiver or blocking and being part of the running game. As an outlet receiver, the Y receiver will catch the ball should the quarterback not have the time to find a receiver. For a Y receiver in the running game, the priority will be to block and open a path to the runner with the ball. Slot receiver (Y or SL): A less-formal name given to receivers in addition to split ends and flankers (for example, tight-ends who line up wide). These receivers line up between the split end/flanker and the linemen. If aligned with a flanker, the slot receiver is usually on the line of scrimmage, and if with a split end, off the line of scrimmage. As with the flanker position, a featured receiver often takes a slot position with a split end to avoid jamming. Considering the era he played in the stats of Graham and a HOF TE Kellen Winslow are similar.At his peak in a more physical NFL he was a 85-90 Reception,1100 yards,8-11 TD receiving TE. Playing today he would be putting up numbers that shame every TE in the league. Since when did a man that only played 22% of his snaps outside the traditional Inline TE and the Slot actually become a WR.By that logic im guessing that Tony Gonzalez will not be entering the HOF as a TE or Winslow was put in on the wrong position? |
Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
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Brandon Gibson Randell Cobb Eddie Royal Wes Welker Tavon Austin Jericho Cotchery all lined up at the wide out position LESS than Graham did. Jason Avant Danny Amendola Santana Moss lined up wide about the same percentage of the time as Graham. Wouldn't they all have be designated as Tight Ends? |
Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
It will get done.
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The old TE of just sitting down on the line and blocking doesnt exists. Maybe there is a case for the TE position to not exists anymore and for receivers are just put into one group but while the position exists a player drafted as a TE,listed as a TE,played Probowls as a TE makes,all Pro as a TE he is a TE |
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The quickest way to change is if someone challanges the old system. Teams won't, they don't want to pay more for receiving tight ends. Wide receivers won't because they don't want to risk falling down into the "slot" receiver if that means they'd make less than a wide receiver. The league might but they're pretty busy re evalutating the point after. There's no good way to define receivers anymore. Sean Payton refers to the franchise tag system as "antiquated." Says it was only a matter of time before a guy like Jimmy Graham battled it. |
Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
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What you are missing about lee's post is that "slot receiver" is not a Wide Receiver position, it is not a position of any sort, it is a role that multiple positions line up in TE, RB, WR. Similar to holder for the place kicker... Scat back is not a position either. Graham didnt line up as a tackle which is a position, he lined up in a role. The CBA outlines the positions, if a guard plays tackle then that is a position, not a role. |
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Graham lined up as a wide out more than any of those players. Why would they be any more of a wideout than Graham. |
Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Colston doesn't line up in Jimmy's TE position, does he? Jimmy is a TE who lines up frequently in the WR's position.
You're welcome. Contact me for my mailing address and write the check directly to me. :-) |
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Just because traditionally a Wide Receiver lines up in the slot doesn't make it a Wide Receiver position... Just line a kick returner is not a Wide Receiver even though that role is normally played by Wide Receivers. 2013 NFL Player Returning Stats - National Football League - ESPN In the strict language of the CBA there is no such position as a "wide out" or a "slot receiver". BTW Jimmy Graham has the right to challenge and has chosen not to. |
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Try not to think about the time at slot receiver. Why would player A that only lines up wide 20% of the time be a wide receiver and player B that lines up at the wide receiver spot 25% not be a wide receiver? Yes, I realize Graham hasn't filed a grievance. I don't think he will. Losing the appeal would cost him more in the negotiations than winning it could gain him. This is purely theoretical. |
Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
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Correct me if I an wrong but the % are not in favor of Graham being a WR based on him lining up at the Z/X/WR, they are only for the Y/Slot Receiver. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/11/nu3e6asy.jpg Slot is between the Tackle and Wide Receiver. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slotback So is TE http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tight_end Most of the talking heads are lumping Slot and WR snap counts together. Jimmy's true WR snap count is lower than 50%. Look at how it is framed in the header.. "Slot is *traditionally* a WR, but they do make the distinction of the two. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/11/yqe7a9uj.jpg http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/b...43&src=desktop This may be clearer.... Lance Moore and Jimmy Graham both play a lot of slot; one is a WR, the other is a TE. The difference between Tight End and Slot is only whether he is on or off the line.... The difference between WR and Slot is 5-8 yards is say. If Jimmy line up in the slot/Y more than 50% he is a TE, if he was an X/Z/WR more than 50% then he has an argument. |
Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
What the hell happened to this thread. Lets get excited about resigning THE GINGER GIANT!
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Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
:bang2:
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Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
Graham hasn't challenged it. I respect that.
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Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
The Saints never like to show their hand. There will be a deal done before training camp, but just because Mickey isn't coming straight out and saying exactly where they're at there will always be speculation.
Reminds me of SP's contract crap-up last year...when all the talking heads said he would sign with Cowboys. |
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Geaux Saints!! |
Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
Back to the OP
it seems the longer JG is 'unsigned' the more players we get. Jimmy's patience is helping us redefine our secondary |
Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
It's all a media creation, as evidenced by the fact that Jimmy doesn't seem to give a crap. Everyone knows a long-term deal will get done without any issues but it's Mike Florio over at TMZ, oops I mean PFT and his peers who insist that this is all so dramatic.
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Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
He wrote today that Jimmy has 3 years to file grievance.
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Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
For someone who was a little thuggish as a boy he's handling this really well.
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" For injury grievances, the player has 25 days from termination of his contract. For non-injury grievances, the player has fifty days. For system arbitrations, the player has a whopping three years" "Certain specific provisions of the CBA fall under system arbitration. One of them is Article 10, which sets forth the rules regarding the franchise tag. Thus, if/when a player disagrees with the specific type of franchise tag applied to him, he has not 50 days but a whopping three years to do something about it" This just can't be right. Way too many potential problems. |
Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
So he's speculating that JG has 3 years?
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Re: Loomis: No deadline for Graham deal
In the strict language of the CBA the time frame for filing a grievance for "system arbitration" is 3 years which is what a Tag grievance is with literal interpretation. <-- Flourio is correct on this portion.
As outlined Page 113 Atricle 15, Section 2 Scope of Authority, Sub (f) Statute of limitations. Unless otherwise specified in this Agreement, a three year statute of limitations shall apply to the initiation of proceedings before the System Arbitrator, which statute begins to apply on the date upon which the facts giving rise to the proceeding are known or reasonably should have been known to the party bringing the proceeding. He missed the part that is bold about "Unless otherwise specified". On page 49 of the CBA (c) under the Franchise and transition players section, it states "Any dispute concerning the identity and Salaries of players included within each player position category, or any other matter regarding these figures, shall be submitted to and resolved by the Impartial Arbitrator during the period from February 1 to February 15, or within twenty-five days after the last day of the Restricted Free Agent Signing Period, respectively. The Impartial Arbitrator shall make an independent deter-mination in writing. In arriving at his determination, the Impartial Arbitrator shall consider any relevant information furnished to him, and shall be provided access to all relevant Player Contracts. The Impartial Arbitrator’s determination shall be final and binding upon all parties." Restricted Free Agency ends 2nd of May 2014, so add 25 days to that and the 27th of may is the last day Jimmy Graham can file a grievance. In Flourios scenario which is incorrect he epically fails to point out, or intentionally omits to have something to write about, is that the only way Jimmy graham can exercise that 3 year window is to sign nothing and stay home for 3 years. Once Jimmy Graham signs that 7m Franchise Tag contract he is agreeing with its terms and conditions and there is nothing left to file a grievance over. On a different note.. See the bold part about "concerning identity within each category", the categories are clearly defined by the CBA also. On page 48 the categories are defined: "Prior Year Salaries of players at the positions of Fran-chise Players and Transition Players: Quarterback, Running Back, Wide Receiver, Tight End, Offensive Line, Defensive End, Interior Defensive Line, Linebacker, Cornerback, Safety, and Kicker/Punter. Notice there is no category titled "slot receiver"? Now go to PFF and in the Signature Stats for Tight Ends you can view "Slot Performance". (paid stats) Jimmy Graham: Ran 538 routes total 134 targets as a Tight End 268 routes run as a Slot Tight End 67 targets as a "Slot Tight End" (And yes they do identify it as "Targets as a SLOT TIGHT END". Slot % 49.8 Read this with me: Slot performance is a category for both Tight Ends AND Wide Receivers. Lining up in the slot is not solely specific to Wide Receivers If you go to Wide Receivers there is also "Slot performance" Colston 56.1% and Lance Moore 51.8% Jimmy Graham is a Tight End Both Colston and Moore have a higher percentage lined up in the slot than Graham. All the hubbub about where Jimmy Graham is because talking heads are combining "Slot tight end" line ups with "Wide Receiver" line ups. Need More? Slot Performance is both TE and WR. https://www.profootballfocus.com/abo...lotPerformance |
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