I am in shock.
 

\'Nuff talkin\'. Just win.

I am in shock.
 

:bananajoy:

I am in shock.
 

Did I just see an AB-Tom Brady comparison? :ALD:

I am in shock.
 

WhoDat --

I hope we get to the playoffs and make a run once we get there. If that happens, Haslett should stay. If we only make the playoffs, a case could be made that he stays. You might not like it or agree with it, but just the same, I believe that.

Let me ask you this: What\'s another coach going to do that Haslett hasn\'t?

What would Jon Gruden do? Or Shannanhan, Holmgren, or a number of other coaches? Hell, those coaches can\'t get it done with the players they\'ve handpicked.

Maybe we get a new coach and they do worse. Happens all the time.

You don\'t get rid of someone until you have someone better. Who do you want for our new head coach?

On a side note, I\'d like to say hello to some of the old guys on here: B&B, WhoDat, Danno, Lummox, gator, saintfan, 08, BMG, JoeSam, Halo...... and the rest... Merry Christmas ;)

I am in shock.
 

To answer the question from earlier in the thread. It is a legitimate question, and as a representative of the sunshiners camp, I will offer an opinion on why it might be different this year.
Something unique happened this year vis-a-vis the HC. Unlike in losing seasons past, where he relentlessly explained away the teams shortcomings, but went to bed with a good deal of job security.
There was a distinctly different tone to this years proceedings. The murmurs quickly turned to roars, the national press had him mentioned in the same breath as Wannstedt and Davis, he was all but thrown under a bus by his GM, the owner publicly belittled the team.
Believe me Haslett stared right into the abyss, he made right with himself, prepared the family for an offseason move, and in accepting the worst possible fate he found a reason to smile again, this release seems to have percolated into the team.

I am not saying that the Saints are gonna go all the way, their confidence is incredibly fragile. However I do believe that they are playing more in character, more in sync with the mindset that brought them success. They seem to enjoy coming out of nowhere, at least Hasletts Saints do, and this is their first real oppurtunity to come out of nowhere.

For the longest time the coaches and players have felt a weight of expectation that just didn\'t jive with how they were built. It is a shame that our guys can\'t have the workmanlike focus to overcome expectation, play like a patriots team etc.

However when they are loose and plucky, in the role of underdog, they seem to have a remarkable knack of pulling off late game heroics.

If the Saints can continue to get no love from the national press, as long as their expectations remain grounded there remains the distinct possibility that they can beat anybody on the day.
Jim Haslett has to recognize the character of this team, they need to respond to his lead, and stay relaxed thru these final 2 games, after all they have nothing to lose that they hadn\'t already \"lost\" two weeks ago.
Let the Deuce loose
Let Aaron be Aaron, and keep it close till the fourth quarter, and who knows how long we\'ll be watching the guys in Black&Gold

Geaux Saints !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am in shock.
 

Johnny, excellent post. I wish I\'d written that.

Haslett hasn\'t felt this kinda pressure here.

Major changes will happen, not just a position coach or two.

Saints enjoy the underdog role. That may explain why they seem to play better on the road than at home.

I\'ll temper my enthusiasm until they are officially in, but something looks different about this team now. They look like the classic sleeper. Of course one bad play and they may crawl right back into that pathetic shell.

I am in shock.
 

You do NOT give Haslett credit for \"getting us into the playoffs\"..

You give Haslett credit for the 8-8, 7-9, or 6-10 record the team is going to end up with...
... it just happens that this year a team finishing 7-9 has a shot at winning a division... any other year, the Saints would\'ve been out of it 4 weeks ago...

..in his 5th year has HC, Haslett should be able to field a better team than this, ESPECIALLY GIVEN HOW BAD THE OTHER TEAMS ARE!!!

... I don\'t care about the Holmgrens (who I would\'ve fired 2 years ago), I don\'t care about the Shanahans ( who hey, 2 Sb rings do give you some leash length)... I care about the Saints...

...with all of the teams with new systems because the coach has only been there a year or 2 ( Cowboys, Falcons, Redskins, Giants, Bears, Lions, Cardinals) with all of the injuries other teams (Panthers, Bucs) , with teams that just plain stink (whiners), with teams with some very shaky coaching and think their 1-2 \"superstarts\" are going to win games just by showing up ( Rams, Seahawks, Vikings, Packers) THIS SAINTS TEAM SHOULD BE MUCH BETTER THAN 8-8!!!!

I am in shock.
 

Wow Tobias. You just summed up ALL my feelings towards Gumbo\'s post. I am speechless. You did forget to mention all those coaches Gumbo listed have superbowl rings, but that can slide. Nice post.

I am in shock.
 

Listen the only streaks under Haslett was a 6 game winning streak in 2000 Jeff Blake was at the helm at quarteback. In 2002 there was 2, 3 game winning streaks. They won 3 games lost 1 won, won 3 again lost 1. Now since Brooks took the hel _m at qb he has 2 3 game winning streaks under his belt. Lately the Saints have only been able to muster a 2 game winning streak followed bye a loss. We will see though very soon. LMAO

I am in shock.
 

I wonder how many winning streaks (and how long they might be) he might have if he had a defense that could hold a team under 300 yards and 20 points.

hmmmmmmm ???

I am in shock.
 

I wonder who\'s fault it is the defense is so terrible. hhhhmmmmm... That La\'Roi Glover and Sammy Knight and Grady Jackson seem to be doing awfully bad elsewhere. And that Sullivan pick is paying off big time. Let\'s not even mention the great promotion of Venturi to D, coordinator. I wonder who could be responsible for such great decisions.

I am in shock.
 

Me too, but I bet I know you you\'re blaming. ;)

I am in shock.
 

Correct me if I am wrong Whodi, but you asked for something that would make this year different for Haslett. I believe I offered a plausible explanation. So my question to you is this.......

If we go on a tear and get into the playoffs, and subsequently acquit ourselves quite well. Who gets the credit? is it the team or the HC..... or both?

At what point are you willing to admit that the Saints could succeed under Haslett, or are you just hellbent on seeing change, for the sake of change ?

Honestly, ask yourself when you draw that line in the sand, at what point you endorse another year of Haslett. If it\'s never then don\'t waste my ****ing time trying to create a debate to which you have no intention of budging.

My position is clear, if he doesn\'t win out these last two games then I wish he would go (although he probably won\'t) If he does then he gets a wholehearted endorsement from yours truly. So where is your line in the sand?

[Edited on 23/12/2004 by johnnythesaint]

I am in shock.
 

johnny,

I think Haz should go either way, but I thought you made a pretty cogent case for thinking this year looks a little different. Well done.

I agree with the idea that Haz is an \"underdog coach\". His teams have thrived only when they are behind. That is reason to believe for this year, but not reason to keep him. Notice what happens when his teams are ahead, they fold to the Bengals. Haz is a young coach, and he doesn\'t seem to know how to coach winning teams - that is reason to get rid of him even if we make the playoffs this year (as a come from behind/underdog kind of team).

I am in shock.
 

First, I don\'t know what the cause is for the belligerent attitude johnny the \"saint,\" but I won\'t respond in kind. I\'ll just answer your question. I won\'t give Haslett any credit. Period. Do you somehow think 8-8 or 7-9 is good? Do you think the NFC will be this terrible every year so that a 6-8 team has a chance to get into the playoffs? Do you hold Haslett responsible for not making the playoffs the last 4 years? Is being 4-8 then beating two sub par teams in a row enough for you to forget the past four years? What about losing to two winless teams in a row earlier this year? Forgot that? So tell me why I should endorse another year of Haslett ever? Ask yourself, is mediocrity in a poor conference acceptable to you? If it is, we have different expectations of what a winner is and different expectations of the level we expect this team to play at. No need to get an attitude cause Haslett is your guy.

[Edited on 23/12/2004 by saintswhodi]

I am in shock.
 

So a trip to the playoffs does nothing then ?

Well then at least I know where your bread is buttered, and that is fine too, it just isn\'t on the same side as mine thats all. The frustration was because I felt that you were manipulating a thread in which only people who fell into your line were acknowledged by you. Go ahead read the thread again, it seemed like you hung a question out there, then promptly got on some other tangent, thats all. Sorry to be rude, but thanks for getting back so prompt!

I am in shock.
 

Jkool I cannot refute what you say, your argumentation would put me in a box if I followed it properly. However, if we do it this time, if lightning strikes twice, and we shine the rest of the way out, I believe that this would give him a real chance to build on it. This time without the rookie mistakes, and with better assistants, less blind loyalty to any particular players etc.

But if they lose next week or even the final week I firmly support tossing him. That is where I have set the bar.

I am in shock.
 

Sorry to say johnny, but that was WhoDat\'s question. I just piggybacked it. Maybe you should read back. Still no need to get belligerent, but it\'s all good. It has also been answered by others, so I didn\'t feel I had to since they said what I woulda. I guess I should have just repeated what they said.

So to answer this other question, a trip to the playoffs means squat this year. When there are about 3 10-6 AFC teams that won\'t make the playoffs while a sub .500 NFC team could, it makes me sick. That is just wrong on every level. I said weeks ago why would I be proud of this team backsliding into the playoffs? Why would ANOTHER 8-8 record make me forget the mediocrity of the last 4 years? Just cause we get to play teams as crappy as we are to finish the season, does not make us all of a sudden a good team or even competitive. I will say again, all we have done the last 2 weeks is beat the bums we should have been beating the last 4 years. IF we go to the NFC champ game, I\'d give Haslett another year, but I am sure we would be having this same convo again next year cause our schedule would be harder than the cushiony soft one we had this year. Also, I am willing to bet next year Carolina won\'t have so many key players out and will be a lot more competitive, and they have beaten us already this year and we have to beat them. What everyone seems to be forgetting is, WE HAVE NOT MADE THE PLAYOFFS YET. We could win both games but if the Rams win the NFC West, we are out, plain and simple. So while the Haslett bandwagon has grown tremendously after beating two crappy teams, I will stand on the sideline and know there is too much opportunity to screw it up as usual.

I am in shock.
 

..well, if you \"budge\" in a debate, then it\'s not a debate, is it?
...funny how you expect people to \"budge\" to your argument... what about you? Do YOU have the intention of \"budging\"?

..but you are looking at this whole thing as \"Haslett could lead the Saints to the playoffs this year\".... whereas others are looking at it as a more accurate \"this is the same crap we have seen the past 4 years, it just happens that this crap may get you in the playoffs this year\"...

..if you look at the history of the NFL, you can count with one hand how many times an 8-8 team has gone to the playoffs... again, this year there\'s the possibility that a 7-9 team can win a division (Cardinals)... there\'s also the possibility that two 7-9 teams AND one 8-8 team could be in the playoffs... this has nothing to do with good football/coaching, it has to do with mediocrity, coaching caroussels, and plain bad football/coaching...

...what you are doing, you are willing to accept this mediocrity and somehow parlay it into something laudable, i.e., \"Haslett leading the Saints to the playoffs\", whereas the ONLY reason why teh Saints have even a chance to make it at 6-8 is because of this years\' circumstances, and not because the team is any better than last year, or the year before, or the year befoer that..

..what you need to ask yourself is whether you see improvement on this team or not.. is this team better than last year? Than 2 years ago? Than 3 years ago? NO! Look at the records and you\'ll see that there\'s not much change.. .


[Edited on 23/12/2004 by Tobias-Reiper]

I am in shock.
 

I\'ve admitted to being torn over my opinion of Haslett, and even made an argument for keeping him BEFORE we won the last two games. I\'m even more confused, now.

I still have firm doubts about our ability to attract a quality head coach. My doubts increased when we began to see candidates mentioned in our previous arguments (Charlie Weiss to Notre Dame, Nick Saban now possibly to Miami, others) taking jobs elsewhere. Granted, it appears Haslett will stay regardless, and thereby we never publicly interviewed anyone. I simply wonder if there\'s a savior to be found out there who\'ll (most importantly) be WILLING to take a chance on our troubled organization.

Adding to my confusion is the apparent turnaround (at least for the last two games). Something seems to have finally clicked, and if the trend can continue (we make the playoffs, actually perform well there, etc.) I\'d be hesitant to call for Haslett\'s head if it appears he may have finally gotten it together. This is not to say I\'m convinced it will happen, or even that I expect it, only that I\'m willing to entertain the possibility.

Then there\'s our record. 8-8 being the best possibility in an NFC probably lousier than I\'ve ever seen it. Indeed, this is not encouraging. Neither is our professed \"turnaround,\" having begun with wins over two losing teams. Perhaps a win over Atlanta this weekend would make things a bit more convincing, but even a victory over them could be considered \"skewed\" if the Falcons don\'t have their two biggest offensive stars.

In closing, and as I\'ve said before, I\'d really like to see Haslett succeed. He\'s a young head coach, one we could potentially reap many good years from if he simply shows some reason to keep him. I\'ll support him if this recent \"turnaround\" proves legitimate, and I suppose we\'ll have no choice but to TRY and support him next year regardless.

But hey, the Red Sox DID win the World Series this year, maybe the planets are aligned for curse breaking! ;)

I am in shock.
 

Mr Tobias, my \"budging\" is that if we don\'t win out these last two games, on the back of pretty strong D and consistent O then Haslett does not have my vote for next year. The real measuring stick is the next two games, it\'s just that the last two is what made it a decision for me.
I had been in the camp calling for his head. I had spent time imagining his potential replacements. Believe me this guy does not get blind loyalty from me. However, and I want to stress this.........
I think I have seen a glimmer of the 2000 saints in their last two performances. I can be proved wrong in the next few days, but I just get this sense that a penny has dropped somewhere.
I spend an immense amount of time surfing the site, rarely do I post just for giggles. I got on this horse cause it seemed right.
I know Danno agrees, but is there anyone else that thinks the Saints are resembling the first year Haslett Saints, or am I just delusional ?

I am in shock.
 

I think we all know now that Haslett staying is about money, not about wins and losses.

Some days I think that Fieldkow (sp) is the real power on this team. He\'s the guy that seems to control the money.

Bring a disciplined, mistake free, hard playing, consistent team onto the field every week.

Actually develop players to be better football players instead of relying on natural ability.

Bring in a scheme that maximizes the talent of the players on the team.

Bring better player personnel/drafting skills to the table.

Need I go on?
But other guys should get a chance. Three off the top of my head.

1. Romeo Crennel. Top 5 defense the last 4 years. 2 SB and a good chance for a third. Enough said.

2. Art Shell. All the guy did with the Raiders was win. I\'m glad that he got a shot to interview with Miami.

3. Nick Saban. Has NFL experience in the Belichick school. Has College national championship credentials. Is a tough minded disciplined coach. Has an eye for talent and knows how to develop it.
Of course it does. But you don\'t hire a coach for the short term. A coach should get 3 years to show that their team can consistently compete.

On the other hand I think 5 years of marginal ball on a mistake filled, undisciplined team is more than enough time to render judgement on the existing regime. That\'s what happened in Cleveland and Miami this year.

Haslett got a long leash because of the 10-6 season, division championship, and playoff win. But that was 4 years ago. Since then it\'s been 7-9, 9-7, 8-8, no playoffs. This year still has a good chance of 7-9 or 8-8, with either no playoffs or a 6th seed with no real possibility of getting deep into the playoffs.

IMHO nothing short of getting into the playoffs and winning 2 games on the road in the playoffs should get Haslett off the hook. Only that would show the kind of leadership and saavy that is deserving of the coach to stay.

You have my top three right there. Shell could have been available this year and had the opportunity to get the kinks out and be ready to kick butt next year. We\'d have to wait for Crennel. But the guy\'s line speaks for itself. He\'d be worth waiting for. And Benson/Fieldkow(sp) are fools for not giving Saban a shot here. The guy is already the Emporor of Louisiana with enough credibility to give him two full years to turn it around. But it looks like he\'s going to Miami, papi.

I echo the same sentiments and a Happy and Prosperous New Year too.

SFIAH

I am in shock.
 

Tobias, SFIAH, great posts. Truly to the heart of what I have been saying. Hopefully, johnny, since I echo their sentiments, I don\'t have to make another post myself. I just really don\'t think any more effort can be put into explaining how a crappy 8-8 team with the same mediocrity as the past 4 years suddenly playing in the worst NFC I have seen in my life(29 years) that has a chance at the playoffs is any better. Any normal year the NFL has been in existence we would have NO SHOT at the playoffs. I am not willing to accept that as improvement. Anybody who is happy with a coach after 4 years of not making the playoffs seems to have already accepted that mediocrity is enough for them, although I could be wrong. That\'s just how it looks to me. Now if the Saints get into the playoffs and do damage, I am sure we will all be singing a different tune. But my point remains, WE STILL HAVE TO GET IN and noone has yet to show me an example of this team winning an important game besides the playoff year under Haslett. Hasn\'t happened. We usually lay eggs when we need a win and beat teams when it doesn\'t matter. That is not a formula for success.