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saintsfan1976 01-31-2015 08:48 AM
Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
From your mouths to ESPN's ears....

Many of us have been screaming for a speedy, athletic LB.

Who's more to blame; scouting or coaching? ?

Now that the talent evaluators have been replaced, we should soon find out!


New Orleans Saints mailbag: Why can't Saints develop linebackers? - ESPN

Quote:
My most popular question this week, in various forms. If you've been reading my posts over the past two years, you know I completely agree with the notion that the Saints badly need a young, athletic linebacker who can cover open space from sideline to sideline and cover tight ends. I like Curtis Lofton a lot as a thumper in the middle and think guys such as David Hawthorne, Parys Haralson and Ramon Humber are serviceable. But there's not enough variety there. They all pretty much have the same strengths and weaknesses.

As for why the Saints haven't been good at drafting and developing them, that's tougher to pinpoint. But it's a question they're no doubt asking themselves after getting so little out of mid-round picks Khairi Fortt and Ronald Powell again this past season. General manager Mickey Loomis acknowledged the Saints will look at how they're scouting defensive talent, among other things while going through a detailed critical self-scouting process.

They'll also look at how they're coaching guys and "what they're asking them to do" as Sean Payton often likes to say. But I don't know if you can make any sweeping indictments on how the Saints have coached and developed the position, because they simply haven't drafted many linebackers with high picks during the Payton-Loomis era.

The only three linebackers the Saints have drafted in the first four rounds are Martez Wilson (third round, 2011), Stanley Arnoux (fourth round, 2009) and Fortt (fourth round, 2014) -- all of whom went bust. They had decent success with undrafted guys Jo-Lonn Dunbar and Jonathan Casillas. But it has mostly been a position where they've preferred veterans acquired through free agency or trade (Jonathan Vilma, Scott Fujita, Scott Shanle, Mark Simoneau, Lofton, Hawthorne, Haralson, etc.)

The Saints haven't completely opposed to the idea of using a first-round pick on a linebacker. Brian Cushing was next on their list after Malcolm Jenkins in 2009. They considered A.J. Hawk before Reggie Bush fell in their laps in 2006. But they've never made it a "must" priority high in the draft. Maybe that needs to change.

jeanpierre 01-31-2015 08:53 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Nice catch '76...

Looks like the discussions on Black and Gold are not idly dismissed...

See, it's not rocket science...

saintsfan1976 01-31-2015 08:57 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanpierre (Post 639149)
Nice catch '76...

Looks like the discussions on Black and Gold are not idly dismissed...

See, it's not rocket science...
Remember our mid-season back and forth about coaching vs talent?

I'm beginning to think you may be right in your assessment of our coaches....

Then again, we obviously haven't drafted well at the position.

hagan714 01-31-2015 09:02 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
when we do actually get a lB the first thing we do is put them at a different position and try to make them something they are not.

then again our ability to scout lb levels a lot to be desired.

if the same group is picking lb talent again this year - please for the love of god go the fa route. spend the picks else where.

halloween 65 01-31-2015 09:26 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Joe"freakin" Vitt,period. He has never devoloped a lb. as long as he has been a coach any place he has been and sadly never will.

K Major 01-31-2015 10:11 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
I think this year Saints brain trust pull off a shocker and draft a LB in rd 1 or 2nd. "Our" Luke Kiechly will be drafted...I hope:bng:

VegasSaint9 01-31-2015 10:32 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
We could've had BRIAN CUSHING INSTEAD OF JENKINS.???!!?!
FuuuujnNxnxmmcmxxnxnxnnsnakzklalsns cnal

jeanpierre 01-31-2015 11:32 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 (Post 639150)
Remember our mid-season back and forth about coaching vs talent?

I'm beginning to think you may be right in your assessment of our coaches....

Then again, we obviously haven't drafted well at the position.
Truthfully, I wish I wasn't right about Joe Vitt, really...

But, he's been there long enough that you'd have to see at least one linebacker that was a standout...

dizzle88 01-31-2015 01:18 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Why can't the saints develop linebackers?

Because they are always drafted in rounds 5-7 or brought in as UDFA's

NonieT 01-31-2015 04:11 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 639169)
Why can't the saints develop linebackers?

Because they are always drafted in rounds 5-7 or brought in as UDFA's
Martez Wilson was drafted in the 3rd round and he fizzeled out.

Danno 01-31-2015 04:23 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by halloween 65 (Post 639152)
Joe"freakin" Vitt,period. He has never devoloped a lb. as long as he has been a coach any place he has been and sadly never will.
Can anyone identify a LB that sucked here and developed elsewhere? Or a LB that excelled elsewhere but sucked under Vitt's coaching?


Joe Vitt isn't the problem. We suck at drafting LB's, period.

saintsfan1976 01-31-2015 04:29 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno (Post 639185)
Can anyone identify a LB that sucked here and developed elsewhere? Or a LB that excelled elsewhere but sucked under Vitt's coaching?

Joe Vitt isn't the problem. We suck at drafting LB's, period.

Good point...

dizzle88 01-31-2015 04:37 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NonieT (Post 639181)
Martez Wilson was drafted in the 3rd round and he fizzeled out.
True, but the constant position switch could not have helped matters

Going from MLB to OLB then to DE in spags scheme, I personally think he could have developed nicely at OLB.

It took junior 4 years to get on the field.

Rugby Saint II 01-31-2015 04:42 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
We always seem to reach for linebackers.

blackangold 01-31-2015 05:02 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno (Post 639185)
Can anyone identify a LB that sucked here and developed elsewhere? Or a LB that excelled elsewhere but sucked under Vitt's coaching?


Joe Vitt isn't the problem. We suck at drafting LB's, period.
I would agree that we have never made that position a priority, but to say Vitt isn't the problem is absurd.

At the very least he is a large portion of the issue. What has he done in the last 10 years which justifies him being on the staff still.

Furthermore, we have had 6 different DCs in the last 10 years but Vitt and Johnson remain on the staff... How does that make sense?

Crusader 01-31-2015 05:08 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danno (Post 639185)
Can anyone identify a LB that sucked here and developed elsewhere? Or a LB that excelled elsewhere but sucked under Vitt's coaching?


Joe Vitt isn't the problem. We suck at drafting LB's, period.
Rob Ninkovich is the only one that comes to mind.

Beastmode 01-31-2015 05:28 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Reggie was the right pick. Lots of extreme highs and lows but he had to be accounted for by defenses at all times. He could make a defense look like a glitch in a video game at times.

We are going heavy D this draft. DL or LB it's going to happen out the gate.

NonieT 01-31-2015 05:53 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 639192)
True, but the constant position switch could not have helped matters

Going from MLB to OLB then to DE in spags scheme, I personally think he could have developed nicely at OLB.

It took junior 4 years to get on the field.
I think they should have stuck Wilson in the middle next to Lofton. He couldn't stop the run but he could cover.

jeanpierre 01-31-2015 06:06 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
It's the coaching, or lack thereof, from Joe Vitt...

With all the linebackers we've drafted, even if they weren't first, second rounders, we should have had one that stuck and was at least serviceable...

2006 R5 OLB/DE Rob Ninkovich, Purdue
2007 R7 LB Marvin Mitchell, Tennessee
2009 R4 LB Stanley Arnoux, Wake Forest
2011 R3 LB Martez Wilson, Illinois
2011 R7 LB Nate Bussey, Illinois
2013 R6 DE/LB Rufus Johnson, Tarleton State
2014 R4 LB Khairi Fort, California
2014 R5 LB Ronald Powell, Florida

A pretty pathetic list, but here's where I still put this on Vitt...

One, the assistant coaches are as much of the draft evaluation/decision-making as the scouts (who Joe Sr. has made sure Joe Jr. has a job with the Saints)...

Second, not even a backup or special teamer in there, not one?!?

Vitt needs to go; reassignment of duties at the least...

FinSaint 02-01-2015 07:22 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Vitt probably does valuable work behind the scenes in the assistant HC role, which is why I'm hesitant to see him given the boot. But, I'd like to see them hire someone else to take over the LB coaching from Vitt seeing as they aren't opposed to increasing the staff numbers i.e. the hiring of Allen.

Tobias-Reiper 02-01-2015 01:07 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanpierre (Post 639209)
It's the coaching, or lack thereof, from Joe Vitt...

With all the linebackers we've drafted, even if they weren't first, second rounders, we should have had one that stuck and was at least serviceable...

2006 R5 OLB/DE Rob Ninkovich, Purdue
2007 R7 LB Marvin Mitchell, Tennessee
2009 R4 LB Stanley Arnoux, Wake Forest
2011 R3 LB Martez Wilson, Illinois
2011 R7 LB Nate Bussey, Illinois
2013 R6 DE/LB Rufus Johnson, Tarleton State
2014 R4 LB Khairi Fort, California
2014 R5 LB Ronald Powell, Florida

A pretty pathetic list, but here's where I still put this on Vitt...

One, the assistant coaches are as much of the draft evaluation/decision-making as the scouts (who Joe Sr. has made sure Joe Jr. has a job with the Saints)...

Second, not even a backup or special teamer in there, not one?!?

Vitt needs to go...

Other than Ninkovich (who no one really cared about when he was released byt the Saints - twice - but now apparently is the 2nd coming of Lawrence Taylor since the Pats are going to play in the SB) who in your list is still in the NFL, and how are they doing?

Boutte 02-02-2015 07:12 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper (Post 639282)
Other than Ninkovich (who no one really cared about when he was released byt the Saints - twice - but now apparently is the 2nd coming of Lawrence Taylor since the Pats are going to play in the SB) who in your list is still in the NFL, and how are they doing?
Finally! Do people think that Vitt is just so magically bad a coach that being coached by him for a short period of time ruins good LB s to the point that they never play again?

halloween 65 02-03-2015 08:48 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boutte (Post 639569)
Finally! Do people think that Vitt is just so magically bad a coach that being coached by him for a short period of time ruins good LB s to the point that they never play again?
Not sure but I'm sure he hasn't majically been able to develop any.For him to develop any good lb. would be magic. Magic Joe doesn't really have a ring to it.

jeanpierre 02-03-2015 09:41 AM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
The only magic he's done is make them disappear...

Again, I point to some kind of development in a linebacker, even as a special teamer or quality backup...

And where is his influence, footprint on draft day?!?

If I were him, I'd be beating the table at some point to give me some talent...

Tobias-Reiper 02-03-2015 01:09 PM
Re: Triplette: Why can't Saints develop linebackers?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanpierre (Post 639635)
The only magic he's done is make them disappear...

Again, I point to some kind of development in a linebacker, even as a special teamer or quality backup...
Ok, so what you are saying is that Vitt is so terrible a coach, that not only he fails to develop rookie players, but he damages rookie players so bad, that he drains them of any talent they could possibly have, and they become completely useless for either the NFL or the CFL?

Quote:
And where is his influence, footprint on draft day?!?

If I were him, I'd be beating the table at some point to give me some talent...
And I take it you know for a fact he doesn't do that, right? I mean, we all know that Sean Payton goes for that...


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