The race card
 

Since the door has been open on the race card, I would like to discuss something that I have been wondering about. Many times in the past when discussing AB, someone will eventually insinuate that I, or other people, don't like AB because he is black. I know this is not true in my case. I am white, but when I watch professional sports, I don't distinguish between black and white when I watch. I know this is true, because of several reasons. First of all, I am also a baseball fan, and my favorite player is Barry Bonds. If race mattered, wouldn't my favorite player be white? I like Barry because he has a gift, hand/eye coordination, that makes watching him thrilling. If race mattered, I would never watch basketball, where my favorite player is Shaq. I love to watch the Williams sister's play tennis. I will have you know that back in the year 2000, I was ready to write-in AB for president. However, he never really seemed to be able to get over the hump, and over the last four years I have become disenchanted with him because of his knack for pulling the biggest bone-head play at the most inopportune time. I like to think that if he had enjoyed the success of even Peyton, I would probably like him a lot more....even if he hadn't been able to make it to the Superbowl. I'm sure the people in Philly are pretty happy with McNabb, even though he hasn't been able to complete the deal yet. Anyway, I am going to get to the point, so please bear with me. I contend that the reason that we have such heated debates regarding AB is not so much that the white people are prejudiced against him, but more that the blacks are prejudiced for him....thinking that he may not be getting us where we want to be, but at least he is black. I wouldn't care if our QB was purple if he got us to the dance. Anyway, that's just my opinion, and I realize I am treading on thin ice here, and may have already gone over the line. If so, so be it. I think I will be able to trudge through life without the message board if it ever came to that. I hope, though, that this thread doesn't get deleted, because I would be interested in seeing what other people's opinion is regarding this matter.

[Edited on 21/1/2005 by Saint_LB]

The race card
 

I am black(this is the 3rd time this week I have started a post with this staement) and I want AB gone. I don\'t care if he was moon cheese green, he is terrible and needs to go.

The race card
 

I thought this issue was over and done with.
America 2005 is the most colorblind time in this nation\'s history. Its also as colorblind as any other nation on this planet.

Racism is dying, but prejudice never will.

Theres a huge difference between the two.
Racism is based on hate.
Prejudice is based on ignorance.

The race card
 

So, let me see if I got this straight. A person is a racist if he hates someone from the other race...but that person is not necessarily ignorant. However, if you are prejudiced, then you must be ignorant...I guess you don\'t hate them but you would prefer not to be one of them. I don\'t know...I guess I don\'t get it. Maybe if you explained it to me I would understand how one is different than the other.
I had to edit this, because this is what I came up with. A racists, IMHO, is a person who is prejudiced against someone from another race. A person who is prejudiced may not like someone for other reasons, such as religion. To me, they are both ignorant, and they both have hate.

[Edited on 21/1/2005 by Saint_LB]

The race card
 

In 100 years most people in America won\'t know what race they are, when other nations teach there people to be proud of their race, the United States has forced people for years to be together against there will. We have become exactly what we resented in the English over 200 years ago. You might think it\'s free but we are\'nt free. Does anyone see the trend that a black QB or coach rarely wins a championship in any team sport. I\'ll stop before I offend anyone but somethings will never change regardless of how hard we try to change them.

The race card
 

first of all if the judgement of how equal we are is not whether or not black people and white people have accomplished the same goals, only that the opportunity to get to those goals is equal. so to try and make a comparison between the accomplishments of one race to another has nothing to do with equal opportunity. every white receiver has the opportunity to be jerry rice but the fact that they wont doesnt mean it is because of racism. and racism and prejudice are two different words entirely. racism means prejudice or hateful of another race. where as prejudice means only the prejudment of someone. that doesnt mean their race. just them as an individual. they could be gay or a million other reasons. the two words have nothing to do with each other unless you are talking about the prejudging of someone based on race alone. but then that is called racism. my wife will be the first one to say she has never dealt with racism or prejudice. she is studying to be a nurse and spent six years in the navy. she also grew up in brooklyn. racism and prejudice will happen in life. you cant control how people are taught. but to act as if this is the norm is ridiculous. i was never taught to dislike someone for their color or for any reason. i had no idea of it until i switched school to a public school. then it was the black members of that school that taught me hate. as they hated me and my firends for one reason and one reason only, we were white. i was in 6th grade. looking back it was a small band of black people that acted that way and taught me that. they were from a poor nieghborhood. in all honesty the real truth of the matter is that some black and some white people alike are racist. the worst part is that even the ones that are racist have been taught that almost always. more importnatly though is the fact that the majority of white people and the majority of black people dont think this way. the real truth is that most of us are exactly the same. just trying to make it throguh life and with everything life throws at us we dont have time to think about it. that is why in martin luther kings letter from birmingham jail he was most disappointed in the white moderate. because he had expected them to show more of a force and force the laws to be changed. he understood even at that moment in the 60\'s that most whites did not agree with what was going on. or he would not have looked for the support of the white moderate. most of us today whether we are black or we are white, we are moderates. we are not an extreme to one side or the other. we are in the middle. that is where dr. king saw our similarities. it is still today where our hope lies. if i had one wish for society as a whole today it would be that he didnt die. because all he wanted was for people to come together. unlike today when all people want is serperation!

The race card
 

First of all your remarks seem racist, but I will not go there with you. To reply to the statement, if you had 32 doors and only one door had a pot of gold. 27 blue eyes & 5 green eyes people are competing. What are the chances that a green eye will open the door? ;) By the way even with the short list of black coaches Edward & Dungy made the playoff in the Division that we all can agree that is more competitive AFC. In the NFC we will have a Black QB winning the NFC Championshipl like it or not.

The race card
 

Do i need to say it?

The race card
 

Why do I get the unsettling feeling that the race talk is about to hit the fan?

I don\'t want that crap on here - but at the same time - I think an honest, healty discussion of race relations is cool, maybe even in order.

But in the end, I don\'t give a rat\'s ass what color the players\' skin is ... so long as they\'re wearing black and gold.

The race card
 

Saint LB, I\'ll try and explain in a simple example

Guy A - \"Aaron Brooks won\'t succeed, because he\'s black. I like him but...
Guy B - You are so wrong, he is a great QB, I just don\'t like him because he\'s black\".

Guy A is prejudiced, but there\'s not an element of hate involved in his comments.

Guy B (also ignorant) is demonstating pure hate.

I think there\'s a huge difference.

Guy-B\'s hateful mentality is thankfully declining rapidly in the USA.
Guy-A\'s ignorance is sadly still rather numerous, but not hateful.

In the 50\'s, Guy B was common.
In 2005, Guy B is a miniscule minority and is considered a moronic idiot by nearly everyone.

The race card
 

..you don\'t travel much, do you? :)

The race card
 

tobias you will have to show my wife that then because she is black and going on 30 and says she has never felt racism

The race card
 

... well, the fact that there\'s even a discussion about white QBs and black QBs should tell you something...

... I am not talking about having different water fountains or having to sit in the back of the bus... I am just saying, that this country is not as \"color blind\" as Danno thinks it is...

The race card
 

I agree, Tobias. I believe that people want it to be different, and, to a certain degree, things are a lot different today. However, we are a long way from where we want things to be, IMO. However, the point of my thread may be getting lost in this discussion. I am merely pointing out that just because I am white, and am disenchanted with AB, doesn\'t make me a racist. It is his performance on the field that has led me to my opinions about him. His egotistical nature does not make things better. I am also contending that a lot of people are defending him, not because of his play, but solely because he IS black. There are numerous white QB\'s that I have become disenchanted with. Walsh, Everett, Shuler, even Hebert when he decided to take his football and go home. The list is longer, but you get the point, right. I just wish that people would quit tagging people as being racist just because they don\'t like the way that AB plays football, and I wish that people who are defending him would take a moment to ponder if there is any truth to the fact that they are defending him solely because he is black, and they like the idea of having a black QB over a white one. Also, are they bashing other white QB\'s, who have enjoyed much more success than AB has, solely because he is white. Just remember, this racism thing works both ways.

The race card
 

I was actually wondering when you would.

I think the conversation so far, while off topic, has been forthright and civil. Personally I would let it go until these conditions were no longer met.

I\'ll weigh in with my two cents. I don\'t think the argument around Brooks is centered on race. Though I think a lot of Black folks would disagree. This Black man however takes a more objective view.

Brooks detractors usually point to intangibles, while Brooks supporters usually points to the stats. Brooks makes everything in the discussion worse whenever he opens up his big yap and starts spewing crap. With the amount of money he is making he should have a PR person whose job is to show him how to keep his big yap shut.

On the intangible side of the fence: leadership, attitude, playing big in the clutch, inspiring teamates (leadership again), showing fire and passion for the game, making the right decisions, appropriate sideline behavior, leading the team to wins despite the odds.

Tangibles are the usual yards, TDs, and the like. By the pure numbers, Brooks is the most productive Saints QB in the history of the franchise.

Then of course there are the myriad other issues involved. If last week and the upcoming championship games haven\'t shown anything else, it\'s that defense wins championships.

My stance wouldn\'t change about Brooks based on race. It\'s the same now that it has been: this team has much bigger problems that Brooks, specifically a weak defense, a suspect O-Line, and ill defined play calling. Fix those, bring in some real competition for Brooks, then re-evaluate.

To me the math is simple. In the last 3 years with Brooks at the helm, when the opposition is held to 20 points or less, the Saints are 16-6. That of course includes the last 4 games of the winning streak this year. That\'s a 727 winning percentage. Unfortunately that\'s only 22 out of 48 games. Since the team is a even 24-24 in the last 48 games, that means that when the opposition scores more than 20 points that the winning percentage drops to about 307.

We keep going over and over and over about Brooks. It\'s not about black or white. It\'s not about leadership and wins. It\'s not about attitutude. It\'s not about Brooks at all.

It\'s about defense dude. That\'s it. When the Saints solve their defensive problems and have 8 or 9 games where they hold the opposition to 20 or less, then and only then will they get more than the 7,8, or 9 wins that they\'ve been getting lately. Because 70 persent of the time in the last 3 years, the Saints have scored 20 or more points.

nuff said for now.

SFIAH

The race card
 

Ok, while I find this discussion something that should be in the \"everything else\" secontion, I thought this was interesting:

Really?

I hadn\'t notice that happening pretty well ever here at B&G. Now, I\'ve been involved in quite a few Brooks debates over the years and either (1) I\'m ignorant to such \"insinuations\", or (2) that actually almost never happens. Now, I\'m willing to admit that (1) is possible, but, without some additional evidence that this \"eventually\" occurs in most Brooks debates, I\'m skeptical and think (2) is more likely - though I\'m sorry if it did happen.

As for the rest of this thread, I think T-R said it quite well. Kudos. Also, SFIAH, nice post. And, nice analogy bk318. Nice work to all for keepin\' it civil.

The race card
 

Hmm... Since I got this thing started, let me say this.

I wasn\'t trying to be disrespectful or hurtful towards anyone. No matter what race you might be.

All I was saying is that the game is moving towards more atheltic guys at the QB position. And, from my observation, those guys are usually black.

Anyway, I don\'t want to get back on what I started in that other thread.

It wasn\'t intended to be offensive. I wasn\'t calling any race stupid or anything like that. Just saying who I thought the better athletes were. Again, I thought that was a compliment and that\'s the way it was intended.

The race card
 

As a manager of a import/export business that deals with several overseas clients, yes, I do.
You don\'t think much, do you?

The race card
 

Danno,

I thought your point was this:

1. Prejudice: judging someone/thing without sufficient evidence or based on facts that are irrelevant to the judgements you make. (Ignorance of the actual facts, essentially.)

2. Racisim: Prejudice about race AND with hate.

Was that wrong? I\'m not sure I think those are quite right as definitions, but I take your point.

I\'m inclined to agree with you that racisim is dying, but it is one of those \"operatic\" deaths that goes on several scenes too long. It is dying, but so very slowly, sometimes too loudly, and sometimes not without a fight (sadly).

However, this idea that racism is dying is something worth looking at - we still have wars and near genocides on the grounds that some other group has a different heritage (whether genetic or ideological) across this world of ours. Also, since I\'ve been here in the US, I\'ve seen a lot of racisim - systematic racisim, hate speach, ignorance combined with hate, and a lot of other unpleasant things. It is my mostly unfounded opinion that here in the US, it is not nearly as bad as it is in some other places, but it certainly isn\'t a paradigm of non-racism either.

The race card
 

Good post. You kinda nailed my point sort of. There is a big difference between innocent ignorance and hateful ignorance. I guess I\'d be considered a Euro-Hispanic. Euro-American dad, hispanic-american mom. I\'ve seen my share of hate and prejudice, but it comes from several different directions and no one ethnicity is blameless.
Where are you from?

The race card
 

Hey everyone, I certainly did not mean anything offensive by my statements. Only making expanding on a previous statement.

If I offended anyone I apologize, we are all here for one thing and one thing only.

Geaux Saints!

The race card
 

i would love to continue this subject on race in another forum. tobias i would like to speak to you about it and have us bounce our own opinions off each other as you may be able to teach me something or i may be able to teach you something. i think that most of us are intelligent on here and can have a discussion on such a subject in a non football forum. we can do it and be objective and intelligent about it. so it would be nice and welcomed. if you dont post something on the other forum i will so that we can start the discussion. i would like to see everyone get involved if you can remain intelligent and not be child like

The race card
 

I think very well...
\"dealing with people overseas\" is not the same as living in another country and experiencing people\'s attitudes towards other people...
see? I am Mexican.. I was born in the Yucatan Peninsula... growing up, I had friends that were of mayan origin,mestizo, mulatto, taino, Spaniard, French, Arab, Jewish, African, Chinese, etc... they all looked different from me in some way or another, and I knew of their descendence, but it never dawned on me that they were of a different race or that they were \"not like me\" in a way other than someone being different to me because they had a different shaped nose... I have never had to fill any form that asks me for my race or what ethnic background am I... there\'s no or \"Italian-Mexicans\" or \"Chinese-Mexicans\'.. everybody is \"Mexican\"... no one goas after the \"African-Mexican\" vote... although you always hear politicians talk about the \"indigenous population\", but again, that refers more about a social class...the same person, with a white collar job in the city, is called a \"Mexican\" :) ...

..that is not to say that there isn\'t any form of discrimination.. but you see it more between social classes ( you see that in the U.S. too :) )

... this is in line with societal behavior that can be observed in most places in Ibero-America... obviously not everywhere it\'s the same: some places are much more of a melting pot like Brazil, other are pretty racists like Argentina...

..so I can tell you, not only having traveled extensively myslef, but also having lived in different countries for a good period of time, that the U.S. is a long way from being colorblind...

..hey, you never heard anyone refer to Pele as an African-Brazilian soccer player...

oh,and spkb25, absolutely.. if you want to keep on the conversation on the other forum, sure! Maybe an admin can move this one to the other board...

The race card
 

I\'d like to ask a question, but first I\'d like to say that I\'m very glad to see that this thread is still open and everybody in here has remained civil and open-minded. This type of discussion can easily get out of hand, however, I really think it is important for people to talk about these types of things so that they can see the other side. I\'ve already read some things in the above posts that have made me think. So for that, I am proud to be a member of this forum.

Now to my question. How does discrimination fit into the definitions of prejudiced and racist?

You see, I don\'t judge people based on race. I judge people by actions. That doesn\'t mean, though, that I am not aware of stereotypes and that I don\'t notice behaviors that are common to one race or another. People are not the same. They just aren\'t, and that\'s not to say that anyone is better than anyone else, but people are different. Even people within any one race are different. I think it was spkb25 who said equality should be considered with regards to opportunity.

I am here to say that the opportunity is not always the same for everyone. I was the victim of discrimination. I applied for a job with a large corporation that has a location where I live. (I won\'t say who, but you\'ve probably bought gas from them recently) To be considered for the job, you have to take a long standardized test, much like the ACT or SAT. I took the test and scored better than 80% of the other candidates. I also have a B.S. degree, whereas 85% of the candidates did not have a college education. I didn\'t get the job. I found out later from someone in the organization that the company wanted to hire more women and minorities to meet federal quotas. So in this case, even though I was more qualified, I was not hired because of my race and gender. Was this racism on their part or prejudice? Who do I go to? The ACLU, NAACP, Feminists Majority Foundation? Nope, nope, and nope. I just keep looking for a job. (Hopefully soon because I have to start paying back my student loans. HaHa)

Is there still racism in the U.S.? Yes, from more than one side. But I think we are closer to being equal than we were 60 years ago. Maybe one day we\'ll live in a society where people are judged as individuals, but that day isn\'t here yet.

Again, I don\'t mean any harm with my comments, I\'d just like to join in the discussion and offer another perspective.

Oh yeah, just to keep some football in this, why is a football called a pigskin when it\'s made from cow leather?

The race card
 

Ok guys, I realize we\'re treading on some pretty thin ice here and I know that this thread would be better off on the Everything else board but I will keep it here and monitor it often. As long as you keep it civil I\'ll be ok with it. Act like grown up boys and girls and we\'ll be ok. ;)

The only thing that is important to me is, we\'re all members of the same race.....the Human Race.

The race card
 

Turbo, an interesting question.

Discrimination is hard to define because it is a word we use for so many things. I can (and do) discriminate between a good pass and a bad pass (e.g. one that goes backward 25 yards, I deem bad). Thus, some discriminations (of this kind here) are good and some bad; it must be some other feature of them that makes them good or bad.

The kind of discrimination you seem to have in mind is something like, using the definitions above, prejudice about race that is acted on for the purpose of x. I\'m not sure what the x is here. If we knew that, we might be able to say a lot more. What happened to you wasn\'t racism on Danno\'s definition because it wasn\'t done out of hate (or with the intent to harm you because of your skin color), but what it was is a bit unclear (though clearly a discrimination of some kind, as you were judged different from others).

Prejudice, as pretty well everyone here seems to agree, is in itself harmful (as it involves a lack of good evidence), but we all do it (just as we all discriminiate, as in my example of picking out differences among things) because we don\'t have time to gather all the evidence. Thus, I suspect prejudice about things like race will take a long time to go away.

I think it is wise to judge people on the basis of their behaviors; this, it seems to me, will lead to less prejudice (unless we misjudge why someone is doing something, and in turn perhaps misidentifying the behavior itself).

Here is also an interesting thought. I believe it was in the late 60\'s, but \"race\" is no longer a concept that is commonly used by biologists. Genetics and cultural concepts have replaced it. Thus, I am told, in biology, people are identified by their genetic code (something we all have in common), phenotype (the expression of that genetic code - e.g. having blue eyes or being tall), and the social norms (etc) that aid in structuring their beliefs. Thus, \"race\" is not a biological fact in our best scientific theories; it is a throw back to an old, and apparently mostly false, science.