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A certain member of this board said recently:

This is an old argument, but let's address it. It goes to a fundamental difference between two philosophies about QBs in the NFL. The athlete vs. the football player. Talent vs. smarts. Play-making vs. role playing...

Our misguided friend is right about one thing - an athletic QB will do something that none has done in a long time this season - make it to a Super Bowl. Vick or McNabb will go, and that's huge. Neither will win, but it's a shift.

See, whatever you feel, it's hard to argue with results. Many people believe that the QB position is evolving. I doubt it highly. The basic tenants of good QBing remain the same. And those who play the game smart, who know their role, and who are efficient remain more successful, in general, than the athletes. Vick is the only exception of an inefficient QB that can still win - and he's basically a freak of nature. Look at what McNabb and Culpepper did this year and you'll see their comp %, QB rating, TD:INT, etc. were better than ever.

But some will argue, so I demonstrate with results you simply can't ignore. Let's find the last "athletic" QB that played in a Super Bowl, shall we?

2003 - Brady v. Delhomme
2002 - Johnson v. Gannon
2001 - Brady v. Warner
2000 - Dilfer v. Collins
1999 - Elway v. Chandler
1998 - Elway v. Favre
1997 - Favre v. Bledsoe
1996 - Aikman v. O'Donnell
1995 - Humphries v. Young

Steve Young was the last guy who could be classified as athletic, IMO, who played in a Super Bowl. Nevermind the fact that he set a record for QB RATING also...

The bottom line is that raw athletic talent will VERY RARELY outperform efficiency at the QB position.

The QB position isn't evolving. Just like Young and Elway, McNabb and Culpepper are learning the position as they get older. They rely less heavily on their ability to outrun opponents, and more on their ability to out think them. To take what a defense gives them. To move the ball efficiently down the field.

Look at the top picks in last years QB class. This year's... The top performers and top picks are prototypical.

If you need more proof, try this: compare the top athletic QBs to the top efficient QBs this year.

Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning, Brees, Pennington, Favre

vs.

McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, Brooks, Leftwich, Garcia

Compare those guys by numbers, W/L... anything you want. I take ANY guy in the top list before any one in the bottom to play for me right now.

[Edited on 22/1/2005 by WhoDat]

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Just the stats / facts ...

32 NFL teams - 26 White QB\'s, 6 Black QB\'s (starters in 2004)

Top 5 passer rating (starters):
1. P. Manning 121.1
2. D. Culpepper 110.9
3. D. Brees 104.8
4. D. McNabb 104.7
5. B. Roethlisberger 98.1

Top 5 TD passes:
1. P. Manning 49
2. D. Culpepper 39
3. D. McNabb 31
4. B. Favre 30
5. J. Delhomme 29

Top 5 rushing yards:
1. M. Vick 902
2. D. Culpepper 406
3. D. Carr 299
4. D. McNabb 220
5. J. Plummer 202

Top 5 rushing TD\'s:
1. A. Brooks 4
2. M. Vick 3
3. D. McNabb 3
4. M. Bulger 3
5. D. Culpepper 2

Less than 25% of the starting QB\'s in the NFL are black, but at least 2 of the only 6 starting black QB\'s in the league are among the top 5 in the major statistical categories.

Culpepper and McNabb - statistically - are not simply great \"athletic\" QB\'s, they are undeniably great QB\'s ... PERIOD. You\'ll notice they are the only two - black or white - who appear on most EVERY top 5 list.

Interpret as you wish...

[Edited on 22/1/2005 by mutineer10]

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mutineer and what else stuck out from those stats to me was look at how carr outrushed mcnabb this year. thats interesting because il bet that each year mcnabb has been in the nfl his rushing has more then likely gone down. im not positive but i\'d bet it. also this is more then likely his lowest total and just so happens to come the year he gets a really good wideout. meaning he had better options. now im not sure if this year is lower then last year or not because last year he missed some games. but it wouldnt surprise me if thsi is his lowest rushing total to date

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also his best year statistically throwing the ball. your right culpepper and mcnabb are just good qb\'s

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Mutineer - I\'m not making this about race. Please check that at the door. I\'m making it about athletes vs. students of the game. Guys who can play sports vs. guys who can play football.

The bottom line is that nothing is changing about the QB position. Efficiency is still king - not talent. McNabb and Culpepper both improved in significant areas this season - QB rating. That\'s what matters. Just like Young or Elway or whomever you want to name before them, they learned to use their skills to take what defenses gave them and keep the chains moving - not to try to be explosive and do it all themselves.

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yeah this is by far his lowest run totals. i just checked. even lower then when he was hurt in 20002 for 6 games. just proves to me that even with athletic qb\'s their more effective throwing the ball then running.

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You missed a year. 1999 should be Warner vs. McNair. McNair was certainly classified as an athletic QB at the time.

SFIAH

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Hey, we can bring up the past if you want. But it really proves nothing about how the QB position is evolving.

Why? Because hardly any team tried to but a great athlete at QB.

However, if you want to talk about results, let\'s do that. Let\'s look at those RARE cases, in the past, where a coach did put an athletic guy at the QB position.

John Elway
Steve Young
Fran Tarketon
Roger Staubach (he was a great athlete)

Putting a guy who could run at the QB postion wasn\'t tried much back in the day. But, more times than not, they enjoyed a tremendous amout of success.

I\'ll bet you that if you look on a percentage basis of every athletic QB thoughout history that you\'ll see they did very well.

Which brings us to the current NFL. Vick, McNabb, Culpepper, McNair make up a very smalll percentage of athletic QBs in todays game.

They also QB some of the best teams in the NFL today. Is that just a fluke? Hardly !! Those QBs abillity to make something happen with their legs when all else fails continues to win games.

No one is saying those athletic QBs don\'t need to be good passers and make good smart decisions. They indeed do!!

Guys, you CAN have an athletic QB who can be a good passer too.

You\'d be a damn fool not to want to have the TOTAL package at QB.

You don\'t think Peyton Manning wouldn\'t like to be able to scramble for 30 or 40 yards?

It isn\'t hard to see what\'s happening at the QB position. But, if you haven\'t noticed it, check out the Eagles vs. Falcons NFC championship game tomorrow.

Like I said, you\'re still going to have you pure pocket passers like Manning and Brady. And they\'ll win a lot of games and even win some super bowls.

But I believe you\'re going to see most teams move toward having the total package at QB.

Time will tell...... ;)

[Edited on 22/1/2005 by GumboBC]

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gumhead mcnabb rushed for less then 300 yards this year. thats less then 20 per game
your opinion is your opinion. but the fact is that qb\'s who can throw the ball will always be taken over just pure athletes. who was that eric guy out of nebraska. great athlete not a qb though.

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Why is this so hard to understand for some?

Did you EVER see me say that RUNNING QBs don\'t need to be good passers? NO!! You did not!!

In fact, I said they need to be the TOTAL package. They need to be good runners and passers.

Do you believe that just because a guy can run a 4.5/40 that it means he can\'t pass too?

Get this. Good passers who can also run are ALWAYS better than a guy who is a good passer but can\'t run!!

Are they always more successful? Of course not!!

But all things equal, running QBs can make something happen at critical times to where a pure pocket passer cannot!!

Dan Marino, Troy Aikman, Joe Montana... They got the job done and they couldn\'t run.

No ones saying those guys are obsolete.

I\'m just saying I believe they are at a disadvantage in todays game.

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right which is exactly why mcnabb runs less now then he originally did. wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that he can hurt you more with his arm then his legs. nothing to do with the fact that him running to him is a very last option. no of course not. because this such a great trend you see so many teams running out to get theese athletes.

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I need to give this up. But first...

Did I ever say an athletic QB needs to run more than he passes? NO!!

Did I say he needs to run any certain % of the time? NO!!

What I am saying is that when they need to --- THEY CAN. And they DO!!

And it keeps drives alive and it wins ball games!!

And those QBs who can\'t run, well, they better hope they can complete that pass cause that\'s the ONLY option they have.

Geeeeeeeez

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Indeed. When I began my post, I basically intended to agree with you regarding QB efficiency and \"who I\'d take on my team\" any day. Looking at the stats, what I found was that Culpepper and McNabb were the only two starting QB\'s in the league who ranked in the top 5 in almost every major statistical category. I wasn\'t trying to forward an A-----, though my relatively poor job of presentation admittedly made it look like that was the case. In any event, my post wasn\'t intended to be a rebuke of yours, it was simply what I found when comparing the stat lines.

This is an interesting truth, and one that brings me back to an argument I\'m having with some people at work. The argument is over Vick and whether or not he\'ll be able to keep playing the game at this level when he plays it the way he does (scrambling, taking lots of hits, etc.). Vick is only 6\'0 & 215 lbs. I really don\'t think he\'ll hold up for the length of that big new contract.

A case study might be (one of my all-time fav\'s) Steve McNair. At 6\'2 & 235 lbs., McNair entered the league as one of the most fearsome runners/scramblers the game had seen in quite a while. He remained an effective runner in the NFL until the injuries really started to pile up. Even then, McNair was able to salvage his career because he still had a great arm. Sadly, the punishment may have shortened (or even ended) his career, but he remains a respected QB to this day.

I\'m not so sure about Vick. Sure - he can scramble with the best of them - but like McNair proved, he won\'t be able to do that forever. At some point his arm is gonna have to get him out of a jam or two, and the verdict is still out on whether or not he\'ll be able to rise to the occasion. It\'s sad to say, but I fear Vick may go the way of Bo Jackson, a great talent whose body just couldn\'t take the punishment.

Any thoughts?





[Edited on 23/1/2005 by mutineer10]

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Billy, get back on your meds! :D

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Not a bad idea. I think I\'ll see if I can get some of that \"medical\" marijuana. :P

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[/quote:dbae025a50]
Not a bad idea. I think I\'ll see if I can get some of that \"medical\" marijuana. :P [/quote:dbae025a50]

If you do get some, please don\'t be stingy with it!! :beatnik: