Blowing up some arguments
 

RDOX,

You can\'t blame one side for being stats mongers in this particular thread. It started out as a stats argument, that is what \"the children\" have been arguing AGAINST. Simply put, this has been a stats thread. It was interesting, but most of the disagreement, as you point out, seems to come down to whether or not the stats tell you the things you think they do.

W-L record, aside from getting into the playoffs, is the most meaningless stat in the entire game. I\'m not sure why people keep saying all that matters is W-L?

W-L accrue to the ENTIRE team, so they are not a reflection of any individual player, coach, owner, front office, or anyone else for that matter. The W-L record ONLY tells you about the whole team. This is why we keep individual stats, this is why scouts don\'t just draft all the guys from teams with exceptional records, this is why when a team has a losing season, they don\'t merely cut everyone and start fresh.

Everyone agrees that after being .500 for 5 years we should try something else, we just disagree on what it is. That is what is interesting about it.

Blowing up some arguments
 

Sorry bud but I DO believe that. Have you looked at Leon\'s stats the last 4 games? I have broken them down NUMEROUS times. He sucked for 11 quarters of football out of 16 in the last 4 games. But the rest of the team picked up the slack. So when the rest of the team isn\'t able to pick up the slack, the QB needs to and Leon CAN NOT. If he can play terrible WHEN WE WIN, egads how terrible it is to have him WHEN WE LOSE. See the difference. The only game where he played a solid full game was the Carolina game. I even gave him props and said if he played like that in MORE GAMES I would lay off him, but he doesn\'t. So yes I very much believe another qb would be a better fit and would have helped us more. At least a consistent qb. That term is an oxymoron for Brooks.

I don\'t know if you understand analogies Gumbo cause you sure missed the one RDOX and I made. Leon is like a cancer(my apologies right now to anyone who has had or knows anyone who has cancer). Sure you can do chemo on the body and remove the traces of it, but if any of it remains it can come back and destroy you. So say we perform chemo on this team, coaches gone, we get a GM, a few new players but the cancer stays, only it seems smaller or that it has been cured cause you thought you fixed the problem areas. But the cancer stays, and little by little it grows, and infects the parts of the body around it, which in turn affects more and more areas. Eventually, you either have to perform chemo again or you die. Get it now? Starts as a small problem but affects the overall health of the entire unit. That\'s Leon.

[Edited on 25/1/2005 by saintswhodi]

Blowing up some arguments
 

I also disagree Gumbo with the fact that the Rams or Vikes have more talent than us. Their lines are just as bad, I will take our receivers over either of theirs(simply cause of Joe), their defenses are bad and our D-line is better than either, our rb situation(rb and fb) is better, the Vikes MAY have better lbs but ours are better than the Rams, the Vikes may have had the edge in secondary before we got MM but with him I will take ours, so I fail to see where they have more talent. They do have BETTER QBS though.

Blowing up some arguments
 

saintwhodi --

Let me attack this from another angle.

I think there are a FEW QB\'s out there who could get us a COUPLE of more wins. Peyton Manning, Vick, Culpepper, and McNabb. Other than those guys, I don\'t think it would make much of a difference.

I don\'t think Hasselbeck, Bulger, Delhomme, or Trent Green would make us a playoff team.

So, while we could have an upgrade at the QB position, it just isn\'t fesible to cut Brooks and try and get a Manning, Vick, McNabb, or Culpepper.

In other words, it\'s far from being the QBs fault that the Saints aren\'t a playoff team.

Instead, it is much more fesible to fix the defense and the O-line.

Blowing up some arguments
 

Well, glad you looked at it another way, but unfortunately I feel EVERY qb you listed as not being able to make us better absolutely WOULD make us better.

Every one of them.

Blowing up some arguments
 

What you fail to address in your thread is the fact that while the quarterbacks that are mentioned may not be as good as Leon as far as raw talent goes, they do INSPIRE good play from their teammates. St. Louis does not have as good a receiver corps as the Saints, yet they produce. Bulger does things to negate the fact that his line is not as solid as say the Broncos. You\'ve never heard Culpepper, McNabb, McNair, Moon, Williams, Cunningham, or even Vick say that they had to \"carry\" their team because they were great. This is the cancer that Whodi and I are speaking of. Leon is eaten up with his own image of himself. He is the embodiment of what is wrong with the Saints. Sullivan has the same disease.

Now, you can crow and harp and discuss Leon\'s greatness all you want, but you can\'t deny the fact the this team is mediocre with him as the starting QB. That\'s a flat fact. Also, this \"poor O-Line\" argument may hold water this year, but in the past 4 years, everyone who had anything to say about football counted the Saint\'s O-Line as their major strength. What happened to Leon those years? Oh Yeah! He had great stats. Baloney!!

Blowing up some arguments
 

Then why did Bulger finish 8-8?

And why did Delhomme finish 7-9?

And why did Trent Green finish 7-9?

And why were the Saints the hottest team over the last part of the season?

If Brooks is a \"cancer\" why did the team rally and make a playoff run?

Blowing up some arguments
 

A bit cynical here, but with all the talk about Haz getting fired maybe everyone was playing for their job?

I\'m not sure that the last 4 wins (against 3 suspect teams) means that everyone rallied around the current QB.

Blowing up some arguments
 

Umm Bulger missed two games with injuries and was in the playoffs.

If someone has to explain to you that Delhomme was great to even GET TO 7-9 with all the injuries to KEY players that team had, there is no point in going on.

Let\'s see Trent Green, 4591 yards, 27 Tds, 17 Ints 66% completion rate qb rating of 95.2 with WORSE RECEIVERS and Priest Holmes OUT half the year. Leon 57% completion, 3810 yards 21tds 16 ints 79.5 rating. See now why I would prefer Green?

Let\'s see. The D played better and special teams scored for us in the 1st quarter of games. Outside of 5 out of 16 quarters, very little to do with Leon\'s play.

If you see this team as having rallied around Brooks as you are implying, you are touched. Everyone hear has heard about the crickets Leon heard chirping as he tried to give a speech to rally the team against Carolina. Somehow you equate THAT to rallying for Brooks? hahaha how about the significant level of talent drop of the opponents they were facing. Not hard to rally when you play 3 teams with losing records and one that sits all its starters. Oops.

Blowing up some arguments
 

saintwhodi--

Okay!! You can sit here and believe that Brooks plays on this extremely talented team and say Delhomme, Trent Green, Bulger, and Hasselbeck play on terrible teams. If you want to believe that, then fine!! Knock yourself out amigo!!

But let\'s see. We got:

Victor Riley
Wayne Gandy
Deuce ( who this year didn\'t do anything.)
Stallworth ( who is fast but what else?)
Pathon ( boy he\'s a game changer)
Carney ( a rookie fullback)

Do I really need to list the talent on the Panthers, Seahawks, Rams, Chiefs?

Or how \'bout all the mistakes Favre made. Just another great QB on a pathetic team, I suppose?!

Ooops!!

Blowing up some arguments
 

Gator --

Do I want change? Yes, I do.

I really don\'t have that much of a problem replacing Haslett and the entire coaching staff. I just can\'t say for sure that\'s going to fix the problems.

The obvious problems to me are LT and RT on the offensive line.

Then at MLB and DT on the defense.

All of those are the most pressing needs to me.

You\'re right, SOMEONE is responsible for not putting the talent in place. Is that all Haslett\'s fault? I don\'t know.

Maybe Benson didn\'t want to spend the money in free-agency??

Maybe Loomis played a hand in getting some of the talent here?

Like I\'ve said, I\'m not saying anyone is wrong with wanting Haslett, Venturi, McCarthy, or Brooks gone.

And I\'m not saying they\'re right either.

I just think there\'s a good posibility we can win with Haslett, McCarthy and Brooks here.

I really feel Venturi needs to go. Even with the improvement with the defense over the last 4-games, I still feel we would be better off with someone else.

Blowing up some arguments
 

..the only thing that really surprises me about this whole thread, is that whodi never mentioned the Seahawks being the team with the most dropped passes in the league, still made the playoffs... other than that. :rollinglaugh:

[Edited on 25/1/2005 by Tobias-Reiper]

Blowing up some arguments
 

Please Gumbo, go ahead and list the talent for those teams for me. I\'ll list who they didn\'t have. Rams went without Kyle Turley all year ont he line, then his backup got hurt. The only halfway decent player on the line was Pace. Sorry, i\'ll take our line over that. I\'ll take Horn, Stallworth and Pathon over Holt, Bruce, and Curtis. I\'ll take Conwell and Boo over Manamaleuna or whatever. I\'ll take our secondary over theirs, our lbs over theirs and definitely our d-line over theirs. But I will take their qb over ours.

Next, the Seahawks? League leaders in drops? Robinson with a 4 game drug suspension and main ball dropper who is worse than Stallworth? Okay. I\'ll take their line over ours but i\'ll take our receivers over their. RBs i\'ll call it a wash. TEs i\'ll take ours over theirs. D-line definitely ours by fay. LBs them, secondary is a wash. So about even. But i\'ll take their qb over ours.

Delhomme, no steve smith, no stephen davis, no deshaun foster, no kris jenkins, several injuries on the line. The team they had out of games for the season could beat us. So YES they had less talent than us this year. I\'ll take Delhomme over our qb though,

Chiefs, no Pritest Holmes. Their line definitely over ours. Our receivers by far over theirs. Tony G at TE over ours. Our rbs over blaylock and Johnson. Our secondary over theirs, our d-line by far over theirs, LBs maybe a wash. But I will take their qb over ours. So yes I think we have as much as if not more talent in our team as those teams. Easily. But I will take all their qbs over ours. See, easy.

[Edited on 25/1/2005 by saintswhodi]

Blowing up some arguments
 

Tobias, the Seahawks were not part of my original argument, but I got them in the next post cause Billy brought them up. He set himself up for that one. Gimme time buddy. He keeps setting them up, I keep knocking them down.

Blowing up some arguments
 

Okay, saintwhodi.

Brooks is a \"cancer\" who is killing this team.

The rest of the players don\'t like Brooks and don\'t want to play with him.

Brooks doesn\'t care if the team wins or loses. He\'s only concerned with his stats.

Brooks makes the O-line look worse than what it is.

Brooks inability to score in the first quarter makes our defense worse than what it is.

Brooks has no leadership and that\'s why we have all the presnap penalties and that\'s why the receivers drop so many passes.

Brooks is the reason McCarthy\'s game plan doesn\'t work too.

Brooks playing injured that one year is why we didn\'t win ONE game that would have sent us to the playoffs. He was so selfish he wouldn\'t pull himself out of the game.

Brooks gets our receivers killed because he constantly throws the ball too high.

Happy?


Now all you got to do is convince everyone else and maybe you\'ll be happy?

Carry on, brother.... :P :P

Blowing up some arguments
 

I\'m just gald you finally came around. This was getting too easy. ;)

But of course, the \"I have no way to counter your argument so I will just be sarcastic cause I have run out of responses\" approach works out sometimes too. Let me know how that works for you. You can\'t beat facts with specualtion and conjecture, never works. But you try hard, i\'ll give you that.

Blowing up some arguments
 

I think that there is a huge problem. As I have read these threads for about 6 months now I have seen a pattern emerge. I have seen the problem and Gumbo is it. There are some people who just like to argue for argument\'s sake, and he seems to be one of those folks. I have watched WhoDat, JoeSam, Halo, You, Tobias, Gatorman, and myself make some point only to read some reply that contridicts what we say, but also contridicts Gumbo\'s own reply in another thread. Therefore, it has occured to me that Gumbo doesn\'t really have an opinion of his own, rather he has an opinion that is going to be constantly contrary to yours, whatever that opinion is. Therein, we get into these long circular arguments about what should transpire in the Saints organization.

I enjoy reading these threads, but I am going to refuse to be sucked into the circular argument game. Have a ball playing it Gumbo, I personally quit. Have a nice day.

Blowing up some arguments
 

I knew I could count on you, brother :)

Blowing up some arguments
 

Ya know RDOX, you weren\'t the first person to say that, and Gumbo has admitted himself he likes stirring the point and getting under some older members\' skins. You are right and are making a good call. I will follow your lead.

Blowing up some arguments
 

RDOX--

So, in other words, you\'re only going to respond to folks who agree with you. Cool with me.

But it\'s gotta get old for some of you folks to constantly keep talking about the same things over and over.

How long can you guys talk about Brooks and the coaching staff. There\'s much more blame to go around.

Blowing up some arguments
 

:thumbsup:

Blowing up some arguments
 

You miss the point. What is happening here is that you are arguing for argument\'s sake. I happen not to be in the \"Love Leon\" Corner, but I have read some of your posts in which neither are you. My point in posting my observations is that you are a \"circular\" thinker. It is apparent to me and others that you only want to argue, not conceed that others may have valid points to make. Your mind is closed to anything that any one of us who attempt to make a valid or well reasoned point about the Saints.

You wanted Hazlett gone. Now you don\'t.
You harped about the O-Line. If someone posts that the O-line is sorry, you have a rejoinder.
You harped about the Defense, now Venturi should transferred.
You harped about Loomis, now he\'s ok.

On and on and on.

So the question to you really is. DO YOU AGREE WITH ANYONE; OR DO YOU JUST LIKE TO MAKE TALK???? :smile_argue:

Blowing up some arguments
 

I just came up with another nickname for AB, although I think Leon is probably most appropriate, I thought you all might get a kick out of this one....

BABBLING BROOKS :soleil:

Blowing up some arguments
 

RDOX --

Let me just say this....

I KNOW I\'m definately in the MINORITY here.

But I\'m not going to agree with folks just to be agreeing with them.

I might agree that Haslett needs to go but I might question someone\'s reasoning behind the decision. Really, I\'m on the fence about Haslett.

So, I\'m not saying anyone is crazy for wanting Haslett gone. But I will make an arguement that he shouldn\'t be fired because I still have some faith in Haslett. And I have very good reasons for still having faith in Haz.

I\'m one of the FEW here who think we can win with Haz and Brooks!!

Where does that leave me? Arguing with folks like you who don\'t like hearing someone with a totally differnt view.

So, insteand of worring why I post what I do, prove me wrong.
;)


[Edited on 27/1/2005 by GumboBC]