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Why in the world am I doing this?!
Kool, fine stuff. I have to concede that a first round QB COULD be a bust, it has been shown numerous times that it can happen. In the case of the Bengals though, when you are sending your scout team to the combine and to colleges in a 4 door passenger car and not flying them around and giving them all the advnatages other teams have had, you have a formula for losing. That WAS the Bengals org. Like I said, Marvin Lewis changed that. He changed the attitude of the front office, players, and coaches around him, which in turn led to a better environemnt for an incoming QB. Had they had these in place previously, other QBs they drafted COULD have been successful. So while I can\'t but into the one of three theory, I can concede there is ALWAYS the possibility of a bust. That possibility seems to be getting smaller to me though as I noted sue to the way players are micor-scoped these days and the fact more college teams run NFL ready offenses than ever before. It\'s still debatable though.
Like I said about AB and the rookie, cause this is getting kinda circular, you trade AB and use his money to free up the positions of weakness. Given the offense and running game AB has, I don\'t see why a good rookie QB can\'t come in and post the same numbers. I don\'t think AB\'s numbers are that impressive anyway in reality. Not numbers another qb in this sytem can\'t put up anyway. You seem to be a bit more enamored with them than me, but leading the league in red zone turnovers and ADDING just plain stupid plays FAR OUTWEIGHS the mediocre numbers we get in return, i.e. unlike Favre, what we are getting out of him is not enough to excuse what he takes away. Leading the league in red zone turnovers for a 5th year starter is just inexcusable to me. That\'s one of the main reasons I feel an NFL ready rookie couldn\'t be worse. Also Kool, McNabb wa snot a passing QB when he came into the NFL, he was an option qb. Huge difference since there are hardly any option qbs left in college, and none that will get drafted as high as McNabb was. HE has shown IMPROVEMENT every year since drafted though with terrible receivers, unlike AB who has gotten worse with good receivers. I know I know this ONE YEAR the line was crap on a stick. ;) Again, Druckenmiller was drafted to sit, and a bit of a reach. He should have gone lower, but the 49ers did not think he would be around for their second pick. I would expect him to do no less than squat. Refer to my changing landscape of college offenses from this thread and previous. Again, I would take the ROOKIE Leftwich over AB. Considering he only had ONE receiver to throw to, an aging Jimmy Smith, no tight end, and fragile Fred as his RB. He still only has ONE receiver to throw to, and has gotten better. That\'s an easy choice for me. I would take rookie Leftwich, and he was drafted right behind Sullivan I believe so he was not a mid-rounder, he was top 10. Here, I think he woulda been in the pro bowl. He is that good. On your challenge, I don\'t think there is a team like that, but again I think you have missed what I am saying. Trading AB gives us the money to fix a crappy O-line and a terrible defense. Keeping him doesn\'t. Then those points are no longer valid, as they would be able to be addressed. |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
saintswhodi --
You keep pointing out all of this \"talent\" on offense. And you imply that Brooks is holding all this talent on offense back?! Well, I disagree... And here\'s why: While we do have talent at the so-called \"skilled\" positions... WR and RB. That\'s about it. And I think our WR corps is OVERRATED. Donte\' isn\'t \"all that\". He\'s far from \"all that.\" First year WR\'s on other teams are making much more of an impact at WR. Donte\' was a big project when he was drafted. He was incrdiably fast, but VERY RAW as a WR. Then you don\'t seem to place enough importance on the offensive line. Check out this quote by: Mike Detillier of the Houma Daily Courier: Quote:
Yet, even Mike acknowleges the terrible offensive line. The offensive line has simply prevented Brooks from being as effective as he could be. They cause him to have to force the ball into coverage. Throw the ball away. Hurry throws. It\'s a tough proposition for any QB. Then the defense causes Brooks to have to try and keep-up in the scoring. Saying Brooks plays on this incrediably talented defense really isn\'t true. He\'s got Deuce (who ranked 26th in the NFL) and Joe Horn? Who else is so talented, saintwhodi? |
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Man, talk about not seeing the forest.........
Clearly you knwo AB has been here 5 years correct? I ACKNOWLEDGED the line was crap THIS YEAR. But what are your excuses for last year, and the year before and the year before? Get it now. AB HAS BEEN HERE FIVE YEARS. AB HAS BEEN HERE FIVE YEARS. Jeez man. Is this year\'s line all you got? Well I have 5 years of poo WITH THE MOST TALENTED OFFENSIVE TEAM THE SAINTS HAVE EVER KNOWN. Again, I challenge you right here and now to find a Saints team with more talent than AB has had around him the past 5 years. He has had Deuce, considered the best rb. horn considered the best wr. Roaf, considered the best tackle, and he had them ALL AT THE SAME TIME, and still was mediocre. So let\'s say it again, AB HAS BEEN HERE FIVE YEARS, which is a CAREER THAT INCLUDES MORE THAN JUST LAST YEAR. So basically you concede that since the lien held AB back THIS PAST YEAR, he has held the team back the past FOUR YEARS. Okay, i\'ll go with that. Time for him to go. What about LeCharles? Is he not talented? Was Fontenot a damn good center? Please man. See past ONE SEASON to support this clown. |
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Oh and Gumbo, you still haven\'t addressed my question about former NFL PLAYERS AND COACHES making negative comments about AB. Can we trust their opinions or have members of this fourm lined their pockets to make negative comments on national tv?
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First -- Brooks has only had 4 full seasons as the starter.
And his first part time season, we won a playoff game. ;) The first 2 years under Brooks, he had about as good of stats as ANY 2 year starter. Lets compare Brooks\' first 2 years to someone. Let\'s compare him to a hall of famer? Lets compare Brooks\' first 2 years to John Elway. Brooks first year: 55.3%/ 3832yds/26TD/22ints Elway first year: 56.3%/2598yds/18TD/15ints Brooks better than Elway in first year. Brooks second year: 53.6%/3572yds/27TD/15ints Elway second year: 54.0%/3891yds/22TD/23ints Brooks better than Elway in second year. Scary ain\'t it, saintwhodi? Heck lets compare their 3rd year... Brooks 3rd year: 59.1%/3546/24TD/8ints Elway 3rd year: 55.6%/3485/19TD/13ints Brooks better than Elway in 3rd year. You still wanna talk stats, saintwhodi? You just don\'t have a leg to stand on if you want to talk stats. Stats can prove somethings. And they are very useful at times. But I really didn\'t prove anything with stats here. Hopefully you learned something....LMAO!!! |
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Did you seriously go there? Name me a receiver or rb from Elway\'s first years? I can name them for Marino off the top of my head. Clayton and Duper, CAUSE PEOPLE HAVE HEARD OF THEM. Elway was a ONE MAN TEAM WHEN THE BRONCOS WENT TO COUNT THEM ONE TWO THREE SUPERBOWLS. Brooks can\'t even get us in the playoffs. What a horrible example. You are right, you proved absolutely nothing with that. How about Montana? Dwight Clark ring a bell? Bradshaw? Stallworth, Swann, Ott, Harris. Man, what a terrible terrible example. Where is JKool when I need him? Elway was a one man team FOREVER in Denver. If you ever think Brooks could carry a team, youare deluded.
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And Again:
Quote:
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By the way, you also forgot to mention in his 3rd year Elway had his team in a Superbowl. Anyone remember anyone on their offense besides Elway without looking it up? Wow.
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saintwhodi --
Terry Bradshaw says he likes Brooks and that Brooks is not the problem. I heard him say it with my own ears. Joe Horn says he like Brooks and Brooks is not the problem. Deuce says Brooks isn\'t the problem and the fans give him way too much grief. Players, announcers, and fans all having different opinions. Do you actually think all the media folks agree with you on Brooks. Eh, knowing you, you probably do... ;) Elway had some good receivers. Remember, the \"three amigos\". Did you ever see them play.. Eh, guess not. What was the Saints record the year before Brooks got there? I believe it was 3-13. Who were the Saints receivers his first 2 years? I suppose you only like the stats YOU use. Go figure... :P |
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As you are so fond of saying, can you provide me with a link to all these people with these glowing comments about AB? Please. Any link anywhere. From any source. I\'ll be waiting.
hahahahaha The three Amigos, that\'s the best you got? So cause they had a cute nickname they were good? This is too precious. I love it. Well, the Nigerian Nightmare must be a hall of famer cause he has a nickname right? Nope. What about A-train Anthony Thomas? surely he makes the pro bowl every year right cause he has a nickname right? This is priceless. His running backs were Sammy Winder and Gerlad Whilite. I guess you would take them over Deuce. I wouldn\'t. Your 3 amigos on the SEASON had a total of 99 catches(Joe had 94) 11 Tds(did Joe have that many) and 1750 yards TOGETHER. Joe was over 1000 BY HIMSELF. By all means continue with this bad example, I am enjoying it greatly. :xxrotflmao: [Edited on 31/1/2005 by saintswhodi] [Edited on 31/1/2005 by saintswhodi] |
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Billy = :sulkoff:
Where you at man? We were having fun. |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
Quote:
To be honest, its not much of a challenge. I clearly showed you where Brooks outperformed Elway in their 1st three years. You say that\'s because Elway didn\'t have any receivers. I told you. I told you about the \"3 Amigos.\" Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson, and Ricky Nattiel were the \" Three Amigos.\" Obviously you\'ve never watched them play. Do some homework... or .... SOMETHING. I simply don\'t care to do all of your homework for you... ;) |
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Peculiar.
A great discussion was going on with plenty of give and take. Plenty of collaboration. Plenty of friendly back and forth. What Happened? |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
I\'ll give you one guess. Mr. No facts comes in, spews some skewed idea of a comparison between AB and Elway for the first three years(Elways was in the Superbowl in his third) and calls some receivers good cause they had a nickname when Joe\'s stats were as good as all three COMBINED. Then when there are no more answers, there is the \"it\'s not much of a challenge\" sulk off. Brilliant. I asked for JKool 3 or 4 posts back and I hope he comes back cause at least he has decent arguments to counter. Gumbo\'s nonsense is too easy, and gets so pointless even he can\'t defend it.
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Heya guys.
This has really devolved here. It is too bad that many people will now not read the earlier stuff. Here are some thoughts: (1) ABs stats have actually improved every season that he has started a full season in terms of passer rating (which is a rough summary of all the QB stats) until this year (when the running game was down, the line sucked and our defense sucked) - 76 in 01, 80 in 02, 89 in \'03. Thus, I\'m no longer sure I agree with this AB keeps getting worse thingy. He\'s roughly the same or better. (2) I agree that the risks of a bust in the first round may have decreased, but they are still high. Even if they are 30% (and I\'d guess they are more like 40-50%), isn\'t that a bit high. We could have Bouman and a bust - 30% chance, or we could have Bouman and a average mid-first round QB who will have a passer rating around 70 and a 1-1 TD to INT ratio (70% chance, I guess), or we could keep AB and maybe draft his replacement giving us a QB who has a closer to 80 passer rating and a 2-1 TD to INT ratio (roughly 100% chance). Pick whichever makes you happiest, I will rest assured that sticking with AB - on statistical dimensions - is no worse than your choice of these. (3) We agree that if the team far improves, who our QBs is matters much less. You feel that AB can\'t get it done; I don\'t see it - though I\'ve heard many arguments to that effect. Thus, if we improve our Defense greatly and our OLine greatly, I\'ll take ABs stats when he had Duece in full form, an OLine, and a slightly better defense (i.e. the three years before this one, which exclude the controversial first season when he replaced Blake) - again, roughly 80 passer rating, 77 TDs to 45 INTs (roughly 3-2), over the projected 70 passer rating and 1-1 TD to INT ratio of a mid-first round selected QB. Statistically speaking, does that not make at least some sense (enough so that an intelligent person could think it)? Your point really seems to me to be this: if we improve a lot we can win with a rookie QB. Ok, I agree. However, if we improve a lot, given this statistical analysis only, it seems to me we will do even better with AB than with a rookie. Thus, non-statistical arguments about this seem to me to be the only available to the Brooks must go now camp. (4) BMG can correct me on this, since he is the cap guru and I am not (and my most recent numbers are old and only from memory - which we all know is poor), but as long as Duece, Horn, and AB don\'t hold out for much more money, we should be able to keep all of them and sign as many as three \"big name\" free agents (each costing in the 2-4.5 million a year group) - which will do for two LBs and an OT (though OTs tend to be slightly more expensive than that), AND still sign our rookie draft picks. That seems like quite enough, without dumping ABs salary. (5) Quote:
I\'m not saying that I wouldn\'t prefer Leftwich, as I haven\'t really thought about that. I\'m merely saying, I don\'t see that this argument is all that strong. Also, AB has improved every year until our team went as badly to pots as it did this year. See above. (6) The three Amigos were a good set of WRs (I am sometimes fond of a - that was a different era - argument, I believe it may apply here). At any rate, I don\'t understand why the fact that people cannot remember someone\'s name from over a decade ago on a team we probably didn\'t cheer for means those guys sucked. That is an extremely unreliable mark of being a good player - whether someone can remember your name. How many guys are in the hall of fame? I can probably only remember a handful of THEIR names, and they were clearly good. I\'d bet there are a good deal of football fans who don\'t remember the names of the Saints WRs. (7) I don\'t understand this adversarial view of posting. I thought we were trying to arive at as close to the truth as we could get; I wan\'t to believe reasonable things, that is why I bother reading other peoples\' posts (and from time to time change my mind on things). This is why people agree with one another and try to help each other out; it is also why one might help provide better examples and points to people they even disagree with. Fighting the skinny geek isn\'t all that impressive, hiring him a couple of goons and beating all three of them - now that is something. [Edited on 31/1/2005 by JKool] |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
Point by point Kool. AB had a high passer rating last year, but how many fumbles did he have? Egads. Most when noone touched him. I don\'t care what his passer rating was after that, he led the league in fumbles and was close to the top in total turnovers. Doesn\'t do it for me.
Ab for his career doesn\'t even complete 60% of his passes. That is horrible. I don\'t care for that either. And Brooks\' ratio is 1.6 TDs for every INT. I don\'t see how that is too much greater than 1-1. Sorry my man. No rounding up there. If I can get a 1-1 qb who can complete 60% or better, I don\'t care if he is a rookie, i\'ll take him over AB. Leftwich is already over 60% in his second year. Again, with one receiver. Sorry bud, i\'d still take him in a heartbeat over AB. He went from a 73 passer rating to 82 in one year, again with one receiver. I also fail to see how where his defense was ranked explains a low completion percentage and passer rating. You are gonna have to explain that one to me Kool. If we improve, I don\'t think we will do better with AB. I don\'t. He will be just as inconsistent. He showed it in the last 4 games of the season, all wins, all phases of the team playing better. I just can\'t get behind winning despite your QB rather than with him or because of him. I can\'t accept that. If we can dominate every phase of the game and AB still have a 60 something rating (Dallas game), we can NEVER count on HIM to be the one to take us to victory when everything isn\'t perfect cause you just don\'t know. 6 mil is too much to pay for that. If we sign big name free agents at the positions we need, they will be a little more than 2-4.5 mil per year. LBs and Ts are paid these days. More reason to dump AB. Remembering someone\'s name matters to me cause I am a fan of Football. Almost any Superbowl team, I can name key players. I posted the 3 amigos stats, they weren\'t any more impressive COMBINED than Horn\'s alone. SO considering the fact AB has had better weapons than Elways during his 1st 3 years as a starter, it\'s no surprise he has better stats. Elway also had garbage RBs and went to a Superbowl his third year. I am still waiting for AB to take us to the playoffs, maybe we can get Blake for the first 11 games again and give him a head start. ;) |
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(1) McNabb\'s career completion percentage: 58.3% I guess he sucks.
(2) I can\'t argue the fumbles, but that was an aberration - it didn\'t happen before and it didn\'t happen again. (3) I said that Brooks TD-INT ratio over the time he\'s been here is 3-2, which is lower than 1.6-1, so I didn\'t round up. (4) Brooks TD-INT ratio over the two years Leftwich has been in the league is 45-24. (5) I didn\'t say that I wouldn\'t take Leftwich. (6) Leftwich was drafted at number 7; he is probably better than the guy we would draft at 16. I still maintain Boller, who was drafted at 19 is a much better REPRESENTATION of the guy we\'d get. Obviously, we are not going to get Leftwich or Boller, we are going to get a guy who is statistically LIKE them; it feels odd to have to say that, but that is what I mean. (7) Who is our second WR that you are so proud of? (8) Quote:
(9) When your defense allows the team to get down by a lot or puts pressure on an offense to score quickly (by allowing scores easily late in the game), a narrowed game plan that puts a lot of emphasis on passing in required (in fact, forced on the offense by the situation that the defense has created). This allows the other teams defense to simply back up and defend the pass. When runing isn\'t an option you put in the pass D. Thus, AB\'s passer rating could easily suffer from a narrowed game plan; with better pass coverage packages, defensive calls, and pass defending players in, what passer is going to succeed at the same level he could if he had the element of surprise, options, or the wrong defense in? I don\'t see why that wasn\'t obvious. (10) Againt the 49ers, AB threw for 279 yards and three TDs. In the mean time, our defense allowed 27 points and 180 yards on the ground. Our rushing game combined for 46 yards. I will say this: AB won that game. I agree that he is inconsistent, but if you keep saying there are examples where he sucked, here is one where he didn\'t. Sure you don\'t know which AB will show up, but you seem to imply you know which one will and it will always be the sucky one - you have no good reason to believe that that I can see. (11) Quote:
(12) I guess I\'m not a football fan, according to your standards. I hope you meant that to demean me in some way, because that is how it sounded. (13) I respect your football knowledge. I\'ve said that before, but you need to realize not eveyone thinks of the game the way you do. Thus, while your ability to remember all sorts of peoples\' names is quite impressive, it says nothing about the quality of the player that other people can\'t remember peoples\' names. See my point about the hall of fame in the previous post for an example. (14) You only posted the number of receptions those guys had that year. Post the rest of their stats including TDs, etc. and then you can say that Horn had better statS; as it stands ALL YOU\'VE SHOWN is that Horn has more receptions than the three of them did ONE year - nothing else. I\'m not saying you\'re not right in your assessment, but you\'ve seriously overstated your conclusion. |
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Ok, that last post came off as a bit harsh, so I wanted to apologize for the tone.
It seems to me that I put out a bunch of arguments and then the response tends to be directed at the examples which are merely used to indicate that the argument is on the right track. My claims are intended to be general, the examples are merely to help out. I would appreciate it a lot if people could tell me why my reasoning is mistaken - not make some points about the examples (they are just that, examples). If the general claim is false, fine; however, if you just don\'t like the examples help think up better ones; if no examples can be found, then I\'ll accept that I\'m wrong. Furthermore, if there is NO evidence for my general claims, I\'d like to hear that too. |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
Kool, I love you man, but now you are just looking to argue. I posted their yards, catches and TDs. Here it is AGAIN:
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Next, I don\'t say anything towards you to demean. I am a HUGE NFL FAN, and pride myself on knowledge of the game and more teams than just the Saints. I like to know a little something about all teams, but especially teams that seem to win while we can\'t. That\'s why I read Patriot Reign, I just like to know. It is not to demean anyone or feel superior to ANYONE, I don\'t doubt the majority on here know more than me, but I do know talent levels on different teams and where their strengths were. Clever nickname or not, those receivers were not that good. Those teams were 100% Elway, something we will NEVER get from AB. As far as rookie completing 60%, Ben did it. HE was drafted at 11. Culpepper did it first year as a starter. Bulger did it first year as a starter, and his career is over 64%. Brady did it his first year as a starter, and he was a 6th round pick. I\'ll stop here also cause the list gets too long. Again, we can get a rookie to do it. Even Brees\' career percentage is over 60, and San Diego has had WAY WAY WAY worse teams than us. Griese\'s career percentage is overe 60%. I could go on all day here. I just went down a list of QBs passer ratings and looked at their career completion percentage and pretty much all of them are over 60, and that seems to be the line to even be competent. McNabb\'s career is about at AB\'s but he has been to 4 straight champ games with much worse receivers. And I am sure anyone on this forum would trade AB for him in a heartbeat. Must be something about him beyond completion % huh? The fumbles were an aberration, but turnovers for AB aren\'t. If it\'s not fumbles it\'s INTs, and vice versa. He is just incompetent. Again, 45-24 is the ratio, but can we include the lost fumbles in there? I mean if he throws 45 TDs, but fumbles 20 times and throws 24 INTs, would you still consider him good? I wouldn\'t. If we go TDs for turnovers, I guarantee it is more like 1-1 or less. A rookie can do that or better. Again, what happens to a defense who\'s team takes a half to get started? Are they supposed to hold teams week after week to no points in the first half while the offense attempts to get on track. AB led the league in red zone turnovers. I guess we should expect the D to overcome that too? Come on man. I am willing to admit the D was bad, but I ain\'t putting it all on them. When you have a team that EVERY WEEK does not score in the first quarter, and barely in the first half, goes three and out, and you already aren\'t that good, that may make you look much much worse. That\'s just my take though. |
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Why in the world am I doing this?!
Favored trick by the bashers? Hell is that supposed to mean? I answer what I am asked, and provide examples. Don\'t know how that\'s a \"trick.\" I use facts my man, I don\'t know who you are indicating with that statement.
Kool, here are some LB salaries from 2003 that I could find. Hartwell and Bell will be in the Derrick Brooks are higher range because they will be highly sout after. Also, a lot of the numbers are not first year since they have no bonus attached, which we will have to pay. http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/footb...ion.aspx?pos=9 Here\'s some for O-linemen. Egads,. They are even higher. http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/footb...ion.aspx?pos=8 |
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I also like how when someone generally agrees with you Scotty, their arguments are strong. Nice. I guess that would indicate the arguments to the contrary aren\'t strong. Okay. No disrespect to you Kool, cause you bring it more often than not.
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Just poking you with a stick, Whodi
:poke: |
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Oh yeah, well here\'s my stick poking you.
Scotty Ro :bigun2: |
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Nice stuff.
(1) Whodi, my apologies on the 3 Amigos\' stats. I must have somehow misread you. The thing is, I respect that group. They were fun to watch. I think it may be a bit of a \"different era\" concept, but I\'ll grant you your point. That said, quit bashing those guys - they didn\'t suck. (2) Good work on finding the stats of guys who put up what you were claiming; were those guys you note drafted between 12 and 20, because that is where we will be drafting? I will now concede the point that it is possible. However, given our good analyses, I think it is a wash. It is possible a guy drafted is a bust - period. However, it is possible a guy drafted will put up the numbers you think he will. It is also possible that he will put up the numbers I think he will. Finally, I\'m not sure why you would think it would go one way or another; it is underdetermined by several great examples on both our parts and by the data in general. I concede you\'ve convinced me that my position isn\'t obviously right, but now I believe that neither of us could know one way or the other. Furthermore, you haven\'t convinced me that any of those guys would have done as well in their first two years as AB will do in the next two. I do concede though that this may be a difficult argument to make. (3) I will not grant your point that AB is just incompetent. There is sufficient evidence on both sides now. It is NOT as though if it is not ints it is fumbles. One year there were fumbles. His INTs are in line with other QBs that start in this league. Furthermore, I provided evidence that AB does win some games - see my point on the Niners game this year - that point stands. (4) As far as the defense goes, we agree then that it does affect the offense, just as the offense affects the defense. Stop trying to make it seem as though it only goes one way - it doesn\'t. I wasn\'t putting it all on them. You asked me how it could possibly affect the QB, and I told you how it could - as per your request. (5) I was talking about McNabb\'s stats. You seem to think that the team\'s record is important - I don\'t. See my earlier argument on this. McNabb is a good QB, maybe a great QB, but his stats are roughly in line with ABs. If stats are the means of evaluation then McNabb roughly equals AB. If it is more than stats that matter, we need to give up on the statistical arguments. I haven\'t decided what I think about this, but I\'m starting to think that passer ratings aren\'t a great way to evaluate QBs. (6) Great work on finding the salaries. I perused them, admitedly pretty quickly, but they seem to be in line with what I said - between 2 and 4.5 mil. or less. Why didn\'t you agree with me then? (7) I\'m pretty sure you didn\'t mean to be demeaning in the way you stated your point; however, I suggest you go back and read it again. It sure as heck sounded to me demeaning in the way you phrased it. I was asking why it should matter that someone (other than someone who responds to the game the way you do) should remember some guy\'s name from over a decade ago. You said, roughly, because you are a fan. That implies there is something wrong with people who don\'t think of it the way you do (in that they lack some good quality you have) AND it doesn\'t answer my question. I really hope you won\'t take this the wrong way. I really think you have a lot to offer, and I really like you, but sometimes you put things in a way that makes people feel defensive - rather than helpful. (8) Good work. I feel back down to earth on my view. [Edited on 1/2/2005 by JKool] |
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I\'ve gone and checked now:
(1) Bulger did not start in his first year as a QB, so he isn\'t in the group we\'re talking about (guys who came in an started). (2) Culpepper didn\'t start his first year either. (3) Brady didn\'t start his first year either. Thus, I don\'t think you\'ve made your point. You said we could get a rookie who could get 60% and 1-1. None of these guys is evidence for that, and none of them is an example of that claim either. In fact, these guys didn\'t start as rookies, and some of them didn\'t even play as rookies. If you think a rookie can get it done, only Roethlisberger is an example of the kind you have in mind (of the guys you listed) and the Steelers have a better Oline and a better defense than us. Even if I grant the Roethlisberger claim, I don\'t see how you could think that one guy among the many is good evidence that a rookie could get it done? I\'m merely asking for an argument as to why you think that; I\'m not saying I think it is impossible. Why won\'t you grant that the people who disagree with you on this have a point, even if you don\'t agree? You certainly don\'t think my view is nuts, do you? (4) Given your knowledge of the game, you\'ll know that Brees is the model of inconsistency - up down up down goes his passer rating. Aside from this year, his TD-INT ratio is 29-31. Hardly a paradigm of success |
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Whodi,
From earlier in the thread i need a clarification. It seems as though the 3 amigos were dismissed with impunity. Their 1750 yards were \"garbage\" yet paradoxically Elway got them to the superbowl. Can you see the conundrum? I know that Elway was not a major threat to run, although admittedly much more mobile than Marino!! How can a team with a garbage receiving corps, and pocket passer reach the superbowl on the shoulders of the QB ? It is not to be adversarial (actually it is :) ) but there does seem to be some flawed logic. Can you explain, without using the \'it\' example, exactly why I should credit only Elway with the Broncos first superbowl appearance. Please try to make a coherent example, and avoid the imminent deluge of stats, I am looking for a solid line of thinking. This may end up furthering the discussion on Brooks (you remember the guy this thread was about) Thanks. |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
JTS, I don\'t know how it can be any clearer. Gumbo used Elway as a prop for HIS stats as compared to AB for the 1st 3 years. My argument was and is AB had has better weapons, and Elways made the Superbowl in his third year with much worse receivers. HE brought in the 3 amigos. I pointed out their STATS COMBINED were hardly any better than Joe Horn\'s ALONE, thus clarifying the equality or neutralization of Elway\'s and Brooks\' stats. It\'s easy to see, at least to me. THERE ARE INDIVIDUAL RECEIVERS these days that put up better numbers than the 3 amigos together. And Denver\'s running game was straight for crap. SO to say AB had similar stats to a hall of famer who CARRIED his team to 3 SUPERBOWLS before Terrell Davis actually provided the help to get them over the hump as laughable to me. Others, such as Kool, decided to pick up that argument and further fuled my disbelief. I am not questioning anyone\'s football knowledge, but if you watched Elway from early you know he was Denver. Some receivers alone during thatera were putting up better numbers than those three. Rice, Fryar, Monk, Givens, Slaughter, Mervin Fernandez, hell you can go back to Largent, Swann, Stallworth. Individual receivers puttign up numbers as good as THOSE THREE together. Maybe they had better years after that, but for the year that was presented to me as part of an argument for AB, they were hardly worth a Joe Horn alone.
And JTS, not to question you, but ELWAY was not a major threat to run? ELWAY? He was one of the original running QBs. He wasn\'t Mike Vick, but he was at least Steve Young. Dude, you have to watch some old Elway film if you haven\'t seen any, and I am not saying you haven\'t. But for his day, Elway was as much a threat to run as anyone. So sorry to say JTS, I can\'t see why you find this to be such a conundrum. Elway was the Broncos. Until they got him help through a running game, he couldn\'t carrythem that extra step, but he took them to 3 Superbowls. Again, Elways WAS DEFINITELY not a pocker passer. I don\'t know who you are thinking of, but it isn\'t Elway. [Edited on 1/2/2005 by saintswhodi] |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
Kool, I am sorry if you feel my tone was demeaning. could it be you just took it that way? Just because there is a way I view the NFL and knowing about its past and past players, does not mean if someone doesn\'t they know less than me. I never feel that way. sorry if you took it that way. Because I am a fan of the NFL is what I said, and not just a fan of the black and gold. That does not knock anyone else, at least I don\'t think so. That just quantifies where I say I draw my knowledge from. That does by no means knock anyone else. Again, for the second time, I apologize if you took it that way, but that was not the intention.
On the the QBs. I simply pointed out Brees is at least over 60% for his career completion on worse teams than AB. I don\'t know how pointing out he was up and down ON WORSE TEAMS makes your point, my point being he at least completes 60% of his passes and AB does not nor has he ever. If that is incorrect, I will withdraw it. On the other QB issue, you are right. I took first year starters and not rookies. So the issue is first year starters can do better than AB, but I have only found one rookie who has done so, that is true. But let\'s go back to the fact not all rookies QBs start their first year, so it is hard to find an accurate gauge of a rookie who has accomplished that task. Also, like I previously stated, drafted rookie QBs usually don\'t come into the league with a Joe Horn and a Deuce and a Stallworth to work with. So while I will concede I have not found a rookie who has done it, I will also push into evidence my previous statements about bad teams getting to draft rookie QBs high and what some guys did their first year as starters. Also, AB has not completed 60% of his passes, why would we demand it from a rookie? Seems kinda unfair to me. I appreciate you pointing out AB and the Niners game, but where are the Niners drafting again? So your point would be if we could get AB to play teams who pick first in the draft more often, he will get to shine. As an opposite view to the Niners game, I give you the Dallas game, so we may be at an impass here. I\'ll also throw in the Atlanta game with their starters resting for free. Just terrible performances in wins. I\'ll say as I said before, either you are just looking to argue or you are not reading what I am saying. The Salary figures I posted to you were from 2003,and I made it a point to mention the fact that for the LBs, most were not in their first year of the contract so no bonus money was included, WHICH IS WHAT WE WOULD HAVE TO PAY IF WE SIGN A GUY AS A FREE AGENT. Most of those were just base salaries cause they weren\'t free agent deals. So even some of the most mediocre made at least 2 mil, without bonuses. Now as I said, the guys who we are after will be pursued by numerous teams, so that figure WILL BE HIGHER. Also, the Ts were well above the range you set. So I ask, why didn\'t you just agree with me? So on McNabb and AB if you feel McNabb is not a better QB, and we want to throw out stas, wins losses and passer rating, how the hell do we evaluate a QB after that? Flip a coin? What criteria do we use? Does it factor in that the first season that McNabb got a pro bowl caliber receiver as AB has had in Joe Horn, he destroyed any stats AB could ever hope of posting? Does that factor in at all? Simple question, would you trade AB for McNabb straight up? I would, and don\'t know many who wouldn\'t. So what now will be the criteria for judging QBs if not stats, win/losses, or passer rating? So you don\'t see AB as incompetent. I do. We will have to disagree. I don\'t see how you can say he cut his INTs last year, but not see the fumbles. And other than that, he throws enough INTs that his ratio is not 2-1 in any other season than last year, but again we will have to ignore the fumbles. This was stated before but I guess it was lost, AB fumbled just as much this year as he did last year, the difference, we recovered more. That\'s it. So if people say Deuce has a fumbling problem, I am sure AB leads the team. To me, that is incompetent. It may not be to you, and that\'s fine. He also led the league in red zone turnovers. That is another sign of incompetence to me. If it isn\'t to you, that is fine also. But I am damn certain we can get a rookie to do THAT. I never said the offense-defense thing goes one way, the point you made DID. Go back and read it if you don\'t believe me. You placed all the blame for AB on a poor defense and that simply isn\'t true and I countered it. You never said there was a give and take and it was both sides. So maybe you should stop trying to make it seem as if it was one way. Of course the point I counter with will be the opposite. That\'s simple debate. But had you initially stated it was both ways, I would have had no argument with that. I don\'t know if I missed anything else. |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
What I was trying to get you to realize, or at least acknowledge was the following. It was a team effort that got the Broncos to their first superbowl. Elway was only a part of a larger framework that allowed them to get that far. Granted he had icewater in his veins at crunch time, but overall even he was not an island.
How does this relate to your favorite goat ? Brooks has shown flashes of grit in the closing stages of close games, in fact I would go so far as to say that when the defence has stepped up and given him a chance, he has shown some excellent decision making. Now, it is my contention that if the Saints can field a defence with teeth, that allow games to remain close, we will be able to guage his true value. This season was a bust, however in a handful of games that went down to the wire.......... HE STEPPED UP HE LED SCORING DRIVES HE WAS A LEADER i\'m referring to the 49ers,Rams,and Bucs (away) In fact it was only in our loss at home to the Bucs that I would say he missed an oppurtunity in the closing stages. You would probably want to include the Falcons game but he did enough to win it. The play calling when they were trying to run out the clock was abonimable!!!! I guess I just wanted to point out that \'situational\' football is reliant on the team putting you in situations to win games. This year a combination of factors, sometimes including Brooks, put games out of reach. The saints can make it to the dance with him at the helm, they just need a total team effort, I have faith they will prevail if EVERYBODY executes their responsibilities correctly. He is no Elway that\'s for sure, but he can lead a fourth quarter drive,and that to me is the litmus test. now if we can just get him to stop talking!!!!!!! |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
So basically JTS, you wanted to speak about Elway to push a pro Brooks idealogy. I got you. Why didn\'t you just make it about Brooks initially? ;) Elway was a one man team. One of the greatest ever. Brooks will never be in his layer of atmosphere. Ever at any point no way no how. I do not feel we can win with Brooks, you do. That\'s fine. But to make me go into this long discussion about Elway just so you can push a Brooks rant on me was, well actually, kinda clever. If Elway was part of a framework, he was 90% of it. Look, I am not the only one who says that. Denver FANS say that also. Elway is a God in Denver cause he left blood, sweat, and tears on the field not just occasionally, but every game. He willed those teams he had to the Superbowl on his shoulders.
Brooks shown flashes of grit in closing games? huh? Where? The Rams game? He threw the ball right to Aeneas Williams, who forgot how to catch and TIPPED IT to Horn. No brilliance there, that was a lucky break. I would hope he could play well against the team that picks first in the draft(49ers). I don\'t think he is THAT incompetent. But you never know. In the bucs game, he didn\'t show up until the 4th quarter, which I guess is good, but I don\'t wanna rely on that consistently. I can\'t say I would like my QB to chill for 3 quarters and then hope he explodes, like he did in thatgame. I am glad he did it, I am just saying I am not gonna rely on that. And yes he needs to stop talking. He only makes me want him gone that much more. So next time you wanna discuss AB, just discuss AB. No more circuitous routes to get to your point okay pal? ;) |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
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Whodi, you complain about Brooks as if replacing him solves all our problems. When someone tries to suggest otherwise you \"rail\" \'em. Sound familiar...pal? |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
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Your comparing Brooks\' stats to EVERY other QB in the NFL is the reason I brought up the Brooks/Elway comparision in stats. Now that I did it, you don\'t like playing the stat game!! I told ya way back in this thread that you couldn\'t win the stat arguement.c ;) All you can do is say you don\'t think Brooks can get it done and I can say I think he will. There ain\'t no proving anything. It\'s just kinda of fun trying... |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
saintfan,
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Gumbo, it\'s not even worth it. I destroyed all your arguments previously and you ran. Please move on. As you told Saints LB, I would appreciate if you never respond to me again, and I will do the same. Cool? Also smary guy, when someone asks you WHAT QB WOULD YOU TAKE OVER BROOKS, should I compare him to some defensive tackles? Wow, man, please just move on. :rollinglaugh: [Edited on 1/2/2005 by saintswhodi] |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
I don\'t want to turn this into a situation Whodi, but if you read my initial post (sorry I don\'t know how to use the quote function) I specifically warned you that I was hoping to redirect the thread back to Brooks.
Having read the entire thread (and enjoying it) i had found it had disintegrated into nonsense. I was just offering my slant on Brooks\' and using Elway/teamwork as a platform to ground any unneccesary criticism. I respect your position, but in the interest of this being a forum I was trying to persuade you otherwise, make you see it for yourself, instead of force feeding it on you. For the record, I did paint you into a corner a bit :) |
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Why in the world am I doing this?!
No problem JTS. You caught me off guard though when you called Elway a pocket passer. That really made me launch into a discussion about Elway. If he was anything, it wasn\'t that. But I do see what you were trying to do, and it was a good method, sort of teaching a man to fish type deal. I appreciate it. But if someone compares Brooks to Elway, I only see more reason to dislike Brooks. Even with the lack of talent around him, Elway never complained or cried about it or dissed his teammates. He just carried them. Over and over til he finally did get help. Brooks will never be that humble, no matter how terrible he plays, and I can\'t stand that. Then he pushes it off on the team, and I can\'t stand it. Not when we have guys who DO lay it on the line for this team. such as Horn. I appreciate your point of view, and your commentary, but Brooks IMHO will never lead this team anywhere except into continued mediocrity. And judging by some of the comments coming out of the front office these days, they may not so much feel he is the guy either. We could have Jerry Rice in his prime and Marvin Harrison on the other side, but when it takes your qb until the 4th quarter to get warmed up and such, it doesn\'t make much of a difference. Just seems to me no matter how much \"help\" he gets, all we are doing is trying to diminish his role in the offense. Well, he needs to take a paycut if so, cause someone else can QB a diminished role in the offense for less money. More help for the TEAM will be gained with that money. Long story short, as I have said 1,000 times, if AB played like he did in the last Carolina game, I would be on his bandwagon. But he usually doesn\'t, and I am sick of it. Sick of the, if we change 47 of the other 52 players on this team, then AB could really shine. That realistically doesn\'t happen in the NFL, and it ain\'t gonna happen here. So it\'s time to change AB.
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Gimme a defense that can stop somebody. Without that the Great Johnny U ain\'t gonna win many. You disagree? Gimme more than one WR that can (a) catch and (b) run their routes and we might just improve. After all, Mr. Horn can only catch it eh...somebody\'s gonna toss him the ball right? He didn\'t get those probowl numbers on his own did he? Gimmie a line that can pass (or run) block and stop putting the team in unfavorible down and distance situations because they can\'t wait for the ball to be snapped and we might have something. It\'s typical to blame the QB for more than he\'s responsible for, and I\'d think, based on your knowledge of the game, that you\'d recognize it, but it\'s fairly obvious you either (a) don\'t get it or (b) refuse to get it. Either way I heard one time that Brooks farted in the huddle. I\'m surprised you haven\'t brought that up yet. LMAO |
Why in the world am I doing this?!
So instead of addressing what I responded to from YOUR post, you move on to other issues? Okay, I can do that. give me a QB who has completed over 60% of his passes in at least ONE SEASON of his career. Give me a QB who isn\'t laughed at by the national media. Give me a QB who can have a 3-1 TD to INT ratio, but not lead the league in fumbles. Give me a QB who even if he was great(which Brooks definitely is not) would not say so and throw his teammates under a bus in the same sentence. give me a QB who doesn\'t say there is \"false love\" on his team. Give me a qb, who knows a pass to anyone twenty yards behind the line of scrimmage is a bad idea. Then give me a qb who knows an under-handed blind pass with your back 10 yards from your own endzone to an opposing LB is a bad idea. Give me a QB who has actually done something to HOLD OUT FOR A NEW DEAL. Not one who tells me he\'s great and holds out. Give me a QB who it doesn\'t appear to take 3 quarters or at least more than one to warm up and get into the game. Give me a QB who doesn\'t take a 10 step drop behind an already poor line. And give me the same QB who doesn\'t back into the rush also. Give me a QB who can read a D and doesn\'t throw into double coverage. You disagree?
[Edited on 1/2/2005 by saintswhodi] |
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Why is it when there are so many obvious problems with this team.............. 1. The offensive line can\'t block. 2. The 32nd ranked defense. .........that folks want to focus in other areas. Now, look, I KNOW the offensive line sucks. I know the defense sucked for 12 games. All this other stuff y\'all are talking about, I ain\'t so sure about. I don\'t know about all this bad play calling. I don\'t know that lack of leadership at the QB is the problem. I don\'t know that Haslett is doing a bad job. But I do know the defense and offensive line is terrible. So what should be fixed first? The known? Or the unknown? What\'s so hard to understand about that? If your car doesn\'t start. Don\'t go changing out motors. See if its getting some gas and fire first. Fix the obvious and then see how it runs. Simplistic, but oh so true... ;) |
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