A debate challenge
 

I think becaue of the past failures by the Saints that there are a lot of fans that have become closed minded and they're going to expect more of the same no matter what.

Hey, that's not a knock on anyone. Who can blame you?

But, I want to issue a challenge.

I'm going to make a case FOR the Saints and I want anyone that disgrees to make a good sound arguement about what they disagree with.

But there are 4 rules to this debate:

1. You can't simply say we're going to suck on defense because Venturi is still here.
2. You can't say we're going to suck on offense because Sheppard isn't a proven OC.
3. Leave Brooks completely out of it.
4. You can't use mistakes made in the past by Haslett.


Here's my arguement. Point by point:

1. A healthy Deuce automatically improves our 26th ranked rushing attack.

2. A better rushing attack will make the passing game more effective and defenses won't be able to blitz as much.

3. The defensive scheme changed at the end of the year and we ranked in the top 5 in defense over the past 4-games. I belive Haslett and Pease got involved and I believe that scheme will carry over into next year and I believe Jimmy Robinson was brought in to help make that happen. I believe we'll see a much improved defense next season.





[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]

A debate challenge
 

So by taking out the 4 arguments that would invalidate your FOR points, you are hoping to promote a FAIR discussion? Good luck.

A debate challenge
 

I want this debate to be as fair as possible. Which is why I made some rules.

You can still talk about Venturi. But go into some detail. Don\'t simply say he sucks and that\'s enough said. Put some thought behind your reasoning.

You can talk about Sheppard. But just don\'t tell us he can\'t get the job done and that\'s enough said. Be specific. The guy has coached the 3rd and 13th ranked offenses in the past. Simply saying it\'s going to be more of the same is closed minded, IMO. Give us some insight. Not more of the same old tired arguements.

You can talk about Haslett. But don\'t just say he\'s made mistakes in the past therefore he\'s doomed to repeat them. How fair is that?

And leave Brooks completely out of it. That goes no where and it NEVER will.

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]

A debate challenge
 

Like I said, good luck. ;)

A debate challenge
 

Leave Brooks out of it -- Why -- one of your points is that an improved running game will help out the passing game. Pretty hard to debate that fairly when the QB is off limits.

So I will say this -- and to debate this fairly we cannot bring up AB, the coaching staff, the last 5 games, the free agency.

As long as we have AB and he continues to without passion and heart we will be an inconsistent mediocre team who only plays well when we get way way down.

A debate challenge
 

Same thing I said fellas. Now how much you wanna bet I get blamed for it. :o

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nope- I said it..and will back it up.

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I\'d just like to thank the folks who brought Aaron Brooks in this discussion. We really learned something. Thanks guys for you contributions. We\'ve never heard those things said about Aaron Brooks... :casstet:

A debate challenge
 

i don\'t really see how this changes things but:

1. Haslett needs to instill in this team the intensity that he played with and that it had the last four games.
2. the coaches need to hold the players accountable and we need to have enough depth to have players be pushed--too many players are comfortable and have only 1 years worth of experience in the 4 or 5 years they have played-there has been no growth and why should they be-they no they are starting and are considered stars. we need a backup rb adn a backup qb to help make those competitive.
3. we need players healthy and in shape.
4. we need to play as a team-nobody should be above the team--see number 3.
5. we need to gut the linebackers and keep those that produce then add some more for depth. brockwaldt was playing above his head, and I\'m not sure watson shouldn\'t be playing outside...but they both did well..now lets add to that.
6. we need to get younger on the o-line
7. we need to cut down on the penalties.
8. we need a philosophy and to stick to-bring player in to play in that philosophy..not just look for good athletes..but smart ones as well.

do these things and we make the playoffs. these are all things that can be done without much change in personel.

we do, however need to upgrade the personel..get rid of some players and add others to fill spots. but mostly we need to come together as a team--but unfortuanatly, unless certain players are cut, traded or benched that will not happen.

A debate challenge
 

Okay -- all of your points are completely valid -- our passing game will be fantastic (cannot argue that point since we cannot discuss the QB). Venturi is a genius because of the last 5 games performance (none of which were against high powered offenses) but we cannot argue that point because we cannot talk about Venturi -- We cannot talk about the Saints being outcoached or ill prepared because we cannot discuss Hasslet -- we cannot talk about our inability to score points early in the game becuase we have a new OC and cannot mention Brooks and his lack of early game passion or intensity

What have we learned -- we learned that in your attempt to bring on a fair debate all you really wanted is for most of us to go against our better judgement and become a hopeless optimist. Its alright to dream about vast improvement and a better year -- heck I think it is mandatory for all Saints fans to think that way -- just don\'t try to put science into those glowing optimistic dreams and call it a fair debate. Call it what it is --- an ostrich with its head in the sand ignoring the problems inherent in the team

A debate challenge
 

4saintspirit --

Look, I understand that by making certain topics off limits that you don\'t get to consider everything.

Venturi is still here and we know he\'s not a great DC.

Haslett has made mistakes in the past and he might make them again.

Brooks has made some mistakes and he might do it again.

I understand ALL of that.

But, there\'s more to discuss than the \"usual\" things that are pointed out.

I could care less whether someone is optimistic or pessimistic.

I\'m not very optimisic at this point myself.

I just put up an optimistic view and wanted some insight on something more than the same thing I\'ve already heard.

Haslett, Brooks, and Venturi...........I\'ve heard all of those. I\'d like to hear something else.

I\'m not saying those aren\'t valid points of criticism. I\'m just saying I\'d like to hear some other reasons as to why we won\'t get over the hump.

I suppose I did a poor job of explaining the purpose of this thread. Hopefully, I did a better job this time?

A debate challenge
 

The Offense has never been the question to me,

We have, for the past few years, enjoyed arguably..the best , most complete Offense this team has EVER had....I don\'t have to argue it..or post a link...it\'s just a fact...

On the other hand...The Defense has been the weakest we have ever had to endure..and possibly..one of the most ineffective Defenses of all time...The one consistent through out the years has been...Haslett, Venturi, and Mccarthy...

Now... I have to question the firing, or whatever happened to Mccarthy...MAYBE if we had some super big time hotshot kinda guy all lined up , ready to come in and take over..but...They had noone...and damn sure noone better than Mccarthy...once again..I don\'t have to argue it..the numbers speak for themselves...

The thing that really baffles me is...I don\'t understand why they would promote the underlings of people they thought weren\'t good enough to begin with...and then...to not hire anyone to fill the vacancies left by the one\'s who got the promotion...really makes me wonder why these guys were ever here to begin with.....

Now...it appears to me that Benson is playing GM...and thus far...all his moves have been real head scratchers...unless..like me...you adhere to the obvious...I think the owner is downsizing in anticipation of a possible huge payday in the very near future..

It\'s hard to suceed at the game..when your playing for the heck of it...there\'s no common goal...there\'s no stability...what I mean is...if you came to win..you came to the wrong team and players are starting to see it...so are coaches...namely assistant coaches....they\'re just here to fill some seats...and put it on cruise till the day to sell comes....

I refuse to believe that noone else sees that....

A debate challenge
 

no I see it..benson is a major problem for this team.

what I don\'t get is why we didn\'t go to the college ranks and get a hot shot OC/teacher???

I also don\'t understand with hasllett and venturi why this d is so bad other than players and lack of a scheme. I mean anyone can run on us...and that isn\'t good.

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by baronm]

A debate challenge
 

It\'s all the ripple effects of downsizing the team...

This year in particular..Benson has aggresively and blatantly shredded the Coaching staff from the inside out...

And..it may seem ridiculous to some...as to why on Earth an Owner would sabatoge his own team...but...let me say this...

Either way..Benson wins....the more this team losses..the more of a stranglehold he has on the State...If he can\'t fill the seats...he will have his argument of poverty all wrapped up in a pretty little package...and it will be undeniable...

On the other hand...if somehow..some way..this team manages to win...he will have a great looking team to sell to the highest bidder....

Whenver you have deranged motives, you have deranged results...this team suffers from a deranged Owner...

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kinda like the clippers in the nba, huh.

A debate challenge
 

Okay Gumbo -- I see your point -- however I have to question if its a matter of talent, lack of talent, poor drafting, etc. It seems to me to be all on the coaches heads --- We have all of the talent in the world on offense --- good receivers, great running back, a Quarterback who can get the ball to a receiver (despite his faults he can throw the ball), the offensive line should not be as bad as they have played.

A debate challenge
 

Continued -- I pressed post reply before I was done -- In any case I am trying to make a point that at what time is it proper to say that the problem is not in the players we have but in the preparation and coaching. Maybe our 5 game turnaround was because they finally were properly prepared. I know we should bring up coaching but I am having difficulty putting the blame on the players ---

A debate challenge
 

... something about going into a battle unarmed...

... you cannot make a case for anything by saying things that you \"believe\" are going to happen, and not present any sort of proof to back up our argument...

..it is like a D.A. saying in his opening statement \"The man is guilty. The prosecution rests...\"

... thank you for having me on this thread... bye bye..

A debate challenge
 

Well....... this went over like a lead balloon.. :P

Folks, if yall want to blame coaching that\'s fine. I\'m inclined to agree that our coaching situation has been one of the problems with this team.

But, simply saying I expect more of the same isn\'t very insightful. It sounds like some of you just have a grudge or you\'re just disinterested in our current coaching staff and have closed your mind to any possibiltiy of improving as long as Haslett is here.

I liken our situation to that of Tampa. The Bucs have really struggled the past 2 years. Stupid penalites, missed assignments, and they just play bad football in general.

Is coaching thier problem? If you listen to some of the Bucs\' players it is. The Bucs players have publicly aired their dirty laundry about Jon Gruden... They say Dungy was the reason for their success and Gruden has destroyed that team.

I suppose Gruden could be the problem. But, I don\'t think they will ever win a thing until they get the right players.

Parcells had one bad season with the Cowboys. Granted, he hasn\'t had 4 sub-par seasons like the Saints. But, I think it shows it takes more than just good coaching to get it done.

I do believe good coaching goes a long way in the NFL. Or in any sport. I do not, however, believe coahcing alone can get it done.

And I don\'t think anyone here believes coaching alone will get it done.

The REAL question is can Haslett win if he gets the right players? I think the answer is YES!!

If someone wants to point to the past and say Haslett is doomed to repeat it ... then ... okay!! I guess that ends that discussion and there\'s not much else to say.... ;)

A debate challenge
 

I\'m not sure Haslett can win with good players -- I don\'t think we have bad players now - certainly better players than an 8-8 record in a lousy division and conference would suppose. I will ask you this question -- would New England have won those superbowls with Haslett as coach -- no way -- would he have had a winning record -- probably. Fact is a coach cannot consistently win with bad players and a team cannot conistently win with a bad coach.

A debate challenge
 

Haslett won a playoff game when we had a defense that finished higher than the bottom half of the league.

Jim Mora (saints) won CONSISTENTLY when he had good players. And when those players were gone he couldn\'t win a thing.

Mike Holmgren won consistently at Green Bay with that talent. He goes to Seattle and they have as much talent as us and he can\'t win consistently there.

Everyone looks at the Saints offense and somehow thinks we have enough to be a playoff team. For the life of me, I just don\'t understand how anyone expects us to win more than 8 or so games with the terrible defense we\'ve had the past 4 years.

Maybe we\'ve had the talent to be better on defense. I think we have had the talent to play better on defense. How much better, I don\'t know.

If I can fault Haslett for anything, it\'s his failure to improve the defense over the past 4-seasons. He probably should have been fired because of it!! I would have fired Haslett myself.

But, Haslett is still here and I refuse to believe he can\'t win if somehow he gets this defense to shape up.

We\'ve CONSISTENTLY won about 8 games every year with a terrible defense.

I wonder how many games we could win with the 5th ranked defense?

I don\'t know, but, I think we would be a playoff team and once we got there............ who knows?