WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

On Fourth Down on 4 this evening, Lee Zurik spoke with T-P writers Jeff Duncan and Brian Allee-Walsh about a number of Saints issues, including:

1) Darren Howard: Both Duncan and Allee-Walsh believe Howard will be franchised and that the Saints will then listen to trade offers. They think we can snag a quality defensive player and a 3rd round pick in exchange for Howard.

2) State-Saints Negotiations: Both men think a long-term deal will be struck. However, neither thinks a deal will be struck by the March 1 deadline. In fact, they think that the NFL is instructing the Saints to refrain from making a deal until after the upcoming season (!) to really stir up the Saints fan base and apply as much pressure on the State as possible to give the team as sweet a deal as possible.

3) Johnathan Sullivan: Both men said the light must go on for Sullivan in '05 or he's gone. Team must show that poor behavior/attitude/work ethic like Sullivan's will not be tolerated. Duncan said Sullivan is John Pease's offseason project (again). Duncan also said he thinks Sullivan should be fired now, but acknowledged that the huge cap hit would prevent the team from making such a drastic move.

4) McCarthy: Both men seem to like and respect McCarthy, said he'll probably be an NFL head coach one day. They also said that while many wanted McCarthy gone, he was a good coordinator who was just doing what he was told to do and took the fall for doing so. Said not to expect much change on offense under Sheppard.

5) Draft/FA: Both men agreed that OT, a playmaking LB and a playmaking safety must be offseason priorities. They also said backup RB is also a need, especially if the team can't work out a deal with Deuce (!); said CB's we have now are pretty solid.

6) Brooks: Both men said they like Brooks, but he's way too sensitive. Allee-Walsh said he was in Brooks' corner until this past year -- he didn't elaborate as to why his opinion had changed.

7) Haslett extension: Both men seemed to think that Haslett will get an extension. Allee-Walsh said Benson wants to stick with Haslett just as the Steelers have stuck with Cowher, hopes the continuity will pay off like it did for the Steelers last season.

8) Joe Horn: Both men said that while Horn's on the downside of his career, he's still a quality player whom the Saints must reward for his performance last season. Sounds like Horn's contract will be renegotiated this offseason (doesn't it seem like Horn has been renegotiating every offseason?).

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

8) Joe Horn: Both men said that while Horn\'s on the downside of his career, he\'s still a quality player whom the Saints must reward for his performance last season. Sounds like Horn\'s contract will be renegotiated this offseason (doesn\'t it seem like Horn has been renegotiating every offseason?).

I\'ve been saying this all along. He gets a contract extension EVERY, and I really do mean every, offseason. It\'s starting to get ridiculous. He needs to honor one of them and stop being so greedy. Doesn\'t really matter anyways, I think it\'s his last season here. No way can you committ Harrison type money to a guys that\'s going to turn 34 after the season. We already have a talented WR corp and can pick up a #1 receiver through the draft or free agency. SEE YOU LATER JOE!

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

While I agree that he won\'t get Harrison type money, I think it\'s in the Saints\' best interest to try to find a way to work it out. Give Joe some more upfront money now, extend the contract to spread out the cap hit, and backload it big time on the back end with everyone knowing that Joe will never see that money.

Something like 5 years, $8 mil bonus, and big money on the last 2 years of the contract. I may even be willing to throw in a roster bonus in the 2nd and third year.

That will give Joe big guaranteed money right now while lessening the cap hit.

But I also agree that if Joe isn\'t willing to work it out, that the Saints may need to look at other options.

SFIAH

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

Joe Horn initially signed a three-year deal with the Saints before the 2000 season. After the 2001 season (2002 would have been his last), the SAINTS APPROACHED HORN and offered an extension and the current contract, adding 3 years to the deal. He is currently playing under that ONE extension, which is good through 2005. If it feels like Horn is always looking for an extension it\'s b/c people HERE and in the MEDIA try to make a case for running him out of town every offseason on account that he\'s \"too old\" or \"over the hill\", despite being paid HALF of what the other TOP 5 WRs make. As with this year, the team and Horn have both made comments in the media stating that the SAINTS approached Horn for an extension, and that the SAINTS demonstrated their interest in \"taking care\" and \"rewarding\" Joe Horn. Not the other way around. You say Joe Horn is greedy and that he should honor his contract... show me another top 5 plaer at any position who is a better deal right now than Joe Horn. Who shows up every week, and despite what people insinuate, rarely brings up the issue of compensation himself. Just give me one example.

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

I know you think Horn is a top 5 receiver, but I don\'t!!

If we\'re going to pay top 5 money, then let\'s go get a top 5 receiver. There\'s plenty of guys out there who put up stats like Joe Horn.

But there\'s much better receivers than Joe Horn. Joe doesn\'t deserve top 5 money. And at the age of 34, you\'ve got to consider how many more years Joe is going to produce.

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

So basically you are putting him the the Moss, Owens, Harrison category? Although he is a great receiver, I don\'t consider him a gamebreaker. He deserves his money, but not the type of money that he THINKS he deserves. His cap charge for this year will be around the 5 million mark, isn\'t that enough? He wants more money and longer years. Seven-year, $67 million extension is the figure he is looking at. That\'s just ridiculous... something around 6yr - 36 mil with a nice chunk up front if you want to reward him. He\'s looking to break the Saints. I\'d wait til the end of the year, tag him for another, and let our other receivers develop or sign another quality receiver.

WhoDat I don\'t think you remember the time when Joe Horn was on ESPN a couple of years back saying that HE wanted an extension and more money from the Saints. This was when Willie Roaf was still a Saint.

And about getting paid half of what other top receivers make, do you notice that many are forced to get their contracts reworked? Muhammad will probably be cut if he doesn\'t rework his deal and Eric Moulds also had to reduce his salary with an extension. Pretty soon you\'ll also see the same thing happen with Price in Atlanta. Not everyone can get Harrison, Moss, and Owens money. And Horn isn\'t one of them.

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

FYI ...

Horn\'s exact cap charge for his year is 4.8 million.

Harrison\'s cap charge is 5.6 million. I don\'t consider this half of what the top receivers are making.

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

imo, horn is worth the money he wants, BUT only if he can time travel into history 7 years and restart at 26 years old.... if not then let him play his final year of his contract, don\'t give him an extension and let his 34 year old ass walk...

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

You\'re looking at a SINGLE year. Joe Horn\'s AVERAGE cost to the team is $4 Million A YEAR. Moss\' is $9 million a year. Harrison\'s will now be something crazy like $11....

But go ahead and talk about how Horn should be cut, just like you all did last season. When he goes to the Pro Bowl next year, you\'ll all be talking about how he really really should be cut. And when he\'s inducted into the Saints Hall of Fame, you\'ll all be talking about how much you loved the guy. Whatever.

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

I agree with most of what the original post said except one. I would trade Joe Jorn now while we can get high value for him -- while he should be rewarded a long-term Harrison like contract is not good value for him right now. He has 1-2 good to great years left but thats it.

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

Harrison around 11 million a year? Are you joking me... look at the number I posted earlier Seven-year $67 million. That\'s is Harrison\'s extension. That doesn\'t come close to 11 million a year. That is also the number that Joe Horn wants.

Obviously you aren\'t reading anything I\'ve written. 6 year 36 million is more than enough. If not let him play this year out at 4.8 which is comparable to Harrison\'s, then tag the year after. If his production isn\'t there and if the franchise number isn\'t good enough (I don\'t see how it wouldn\'t be enough) then trade him or cut him loose. What isn\'t logical about this?

I laughed when you said Saints Hall of Fame because in a weird way it helped prove my point. Moss, Owens, and Harrison will someday be in the NFL Hall of Fame. Get the picture?

As for talking about how much \"you loved the guy\", I think I\'m going to crap in my pants. He\'s a very good player and all, but I certainly don\'t go see Saints game to watch Horn play.

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

1. Papz, Gumbo, Will you guys give a link to the comments of Joe Horn wanting the same type deal Harrison got...... First of all the only thing I read is that the Saints want to take care of Horn, and Horn stated; My Idea of the Saints taking care of me and there Idea may not be the same, but I hope they will.

2. You guys talk about Joe as if he was not a gamer, and does not make a difference on our team, Like we can do without him, and Papz you stated we have already a talanted corps of wide receivers, and could easily find another #1..... Tell Philedelphia that, thats why after so many years without a good #1 they broke the bank for T.O. \" lets Face it Joe is quite honestly the Best Receiver in Saints History, and it took us how many years to find him..........

3. No I think it would be insaine to give him the exact contract Harrison has, because of his age, But answer me this, How old is Harrison, and how long will he stay at the Level he is playing now, and secondly I do not feel Harrisson is that much better than Horn........ Give us Peyton Manning, and thm Brooks and we will see....... I agree Owens and Moss are Monsters......... there are not many other Receivers I would consider an equal replacement factoring production and age into the mix...... There are a Few young receivers in the League I would take in a heart beat, but they are tied up......

4. I agree we must Draft a replacement, but isn\'t that what we thought Stalworth was....... We need to think about getting younger, but at the Same Time I would like Joe To retire a Saint and be there untill he is Replaced talent wise

[Edited on 15/2/2005 by WD52]

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

We\'re both wrong. You said 7 years 67 mill. I thought it was 6 for 72. In fact, it\'s 8 for 72, so he\'s making $9 million a year. Roughly TWICE the $4.8 Joe is scheduled to make this season.



What I can\'t understand is how these things turn into this kind of crap.

ATTENTION --- ATTENTION --- ALL BNGERS!!!!!!

JOE HORN HAS NOT ASKED FOR MARVIN HARRISON MONEY!!!!!

One stupid RUMOR, which has grown out of an ASSUMPTION has somehow turned into Joe Horn asking for $70 Million Dollars. Folks, he hasn\'t. Here\'s the thing that started all of this:

\"At 33, Horn knows an extension could be his final contract, his last chance to make big money before hanging up his cleats. The eight-year, $72.1 million contract Harrison signed in December caught his attention.

\'(The Saints) say they\'re going to take care of me, but their idea of taking care of me, and my idea of taking care of me might be completely different,\' Horn said. \'I hope they follow through. We\'ll see what happens.\'\"

The WRITER SUGGESTS that Harrison money could be relevant, and Horn simply says \"we\'ll see what happens.\" NEVER does he ask for $70 Million. This has been sensationalized (in an attempt to deflect attention from Brooks), and is entirely not the case.

But since I know that no one on this board will actually reign anything in, just thought I\'d start my own rumor.



BIG NEWS:
I heard from a buddy at Mardi Gras while down in NO that Aaron Brooks is going to HOLD OUT if the Saints fail to renogotiate his contract before the season. It seems Aaron feels that he is deserving of a TRUE top 5 contract, and that his pittily$36 million no longer fits that category. AB believes that he is in the same realm as Manning, Culpepper, and McNabb. He thinks his development and success is being held back by a team with poor coaches and underacheiving players. He also thinks that his ability to make money in endorsements is greatly effected by the small market and Delhomme-biased fans of New Orleans. He wants the team to move to LA, but in lieu of that, he will demand a big money contract similar to the $100 million one Peyton Manning recently received. The guy who told me this works for the Zephyrs, is constantly down on Airline, knows a number of executives and other officials with the Saints, and is highly plugged into the professional sports market in N.O. In fact, he met with Hornets officials when the team moved, but they ultimately brought their existing people that work in his capacity.

So what do you guys think? Is Aaron Brooks worth Peyton Manning money? Can you believe that this guy is demanding $100 million??!!!

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

Thank you Who dat..... Were yo Whodat26 in the old saints nation on the official Neworleanssaints.com? I was WhoDat52.....

People seem to forget that Horn was the 1 and only Bright spot on the Team this year for most of the season..... and Has been Damn solid since he came here from KC..... and Does not really show that much effect of slowing down..... we could still have him produce like he has fo 3-5 more years under the right circumstances, How old is Jerry Rice LOL....

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

Look what I wrote... 6 for 36 million a year... is that not fair enough? Why doesn\'t he just play out this year and finish his contract which is similiar to Harrison\'s cap number for this year? THEN TAG HIM THE NEXT YEAR AS I STATED MANY TIMES BEFORE... which will give him TOP 5 RECEIVER MONEY FOR THE YEAR AFTER HE FINISHES HIS CONTRACT... THEN... if he is still as productive... give him his fair share... NOT HARRISON MONEY... HE WANTS TO BE PAID AS A TOP 5 RECEIVER AM I RIGHT? HAS HE NOT SUGGESTED THIS OVER AND OVER? ISN\'T THAT CONSIDERED TO BE AROUND 9 MILLION A YEAR? ISN\'T OWENS, HARRISON, AND MOSS MAKING THAT MUCH? FOR HARRISON THAT WOULD HAVE NEXT YEAR NOT 2005. WHY AM I POSTING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER? MAYBE BECAUSE YOU AREN\'T READING ANYTHING.

Is Rice making more than 2 million? How many balls has he caught the past 2-3 years?

Once again quoted from myself...

\"I laughed when you said Saints Hall of Fame because in a weird way it helped prove my point. Moss, Owens, and Harrison will someday be in the NFL Hall of Fame. Get the picture?\"

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

Nope - I never really liked the \"official\" Saints Billboards.

I won\'t play fortune teller and suggest how long Horn will keep producing, but I will say that the guy has earned it. People have been writing him off for three years now. Yes, eventually he will slow down...

But this is what happens on this board. Things are always polarized. For example, right now, if you were to say, \"You know, Joe Horn has been the most consistent and best performer on our team for the last five years, making money below his performance level, and the guy is worth trying to keep around,\" that somehow translates into: \"I think Jow Horn can play forever and $200 million for a single season wouldn\'t be too much to keep the best WR in the league, as far as I\'m concerned!!\" Just like in the past if you said, \"AB is inconsistent, self-centered, not very smart, and part of the problem with this team,\" that translated into \"Aaron Brooks is the worst QB in the history of the league, he is the ONLY problem with the Saints, he should immediately be cut, and maybe I\'ll just go camp outside his house in his bushes and see if I can\'t get a shot off at the SOB.\" It\'s ridiculous.

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

In your opinion, what is his fair market value? Doesn\'t it just make sense to let him play out the year then franchise him so everyone will be happy? I\'ve never written off Horn so don\'t categorize me in that category. Go back and read the threads. You are stero-typing this thread as if no one thinks Horn is worth crap.

But if you still want to be a about it... once again the same quote...

\"I laughed when you said Saints Hall of Fame because in a weird way it helped prove my point. Moss, Owens, and Harrison will someday be in the NFL Hall of Fame. Get the picture?\"



[Edited on 15/2/2005 by papz]

[Edited on 16/2/2005 by JOESAM2002]

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

I totally agree with that..Horn has been the ONLY consistent player we have had in the past 5 years ...on either side of the ball...

His stats are always great...

2000 - 94 catches - 1340 yards - 8 td\'s

2001 - 83 - 1265 - 9

2002 - 88 - 1312 - 7

2003 - 78 - 973 - 10

2004 - 94 - 1399 - 11

He\'s coming off his best year ever...and comparably, one of the best seasons any Saints wide out has ever had..he\'s still one of the true Elite receivers in the NFL...

Give him a 3 year extension..and watch the yards pile up...

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

Papz Ok Granted, I received your point. But also in your previous posts, it seems to me you under value Horn, a great deal, and as far as production is concerned he is close to if not a member of the top 5 club go look at his stats this year, and compare them to Moss, Owens, Harrison,and who ever you think has been consistantly in the 4 and 5 spots and come back and tell me why Horn is not in that list ...... or right below it.......

Not to mention, WE DO NOT EVEN KNOW DOR SURE WHAT KINDAA MONEY HORN WILL DEMAND..... wat if it is 6 mil a year as opposed to 9 mil which we all agree is top 5 money, or do we agree on that yet.......

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

WD52 why do you all keep trying to prove my point for me... I already did that. Read every post in which I state a fair market value for him. Wait... let me just state it ONE MORE TIME! 6 for 36... opps OMG WE\'VE BEEN AGREEING ALL THIS TIME... OMG! :casstet:

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

Ok papz good call on the market value..........

With so many opinions I usually take it one post at a time and try to remember what everyone says, I still think your Method of getting that post across, kinda got me in Defense Mode LOL.. I just re-read all the post, I think the reason we were arguing other than my misinterpitation, is the Fact I honestly think he is close to that magic 5 number although I would not Pay that 9 mil a year, I agree about 6.5 is the most I would go. I also in other posts have mentioned Taging him unless a deal is struck next year, instead of losing him without compensation, \"You have said this also\" ............

Ohhhh we do mostly agree...... LOL sorry

My whole Point is I would not just let Joe slip away without a fight, even if it means paying him a \"little\" more than what we agreed on. I would like Horn to retire a Saint, But not at all cost.......

This is Probably (notice I said Probably) the one thing we disagree with and I Quote:

\"We already have a talented WR corp and can pick up a #1 receiver through the draft or free agency. SEE YOU LATER JOE!\"


I don\'t have the see you later Joe Attitude....... thats the only diffrence...

oh P.s. I know you wer refering to Harrison type money when you said that, But I would even be upset if it was that kinda money he wanted and we just let him go....... I just say keep Joe if at all reasonable if not Tag him.....

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

Papz - uh, where are you getting your numbers buddy? 6 years for 36 million is BROOKS\' contract, NOT HORN\'S. Horn is currently playing under a 3 year $13 million contract extension he signed in 2001 or 2002. But don\'t believe me, here\'s <a href=\'http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/peter_king/06/07/king.mmqb/\'>proof</a>.

I\'m going to address the second part of that quote first. No, you are wrong - actually, neither of us can say what his demands are b/c he hasn\'t made them. He has not yet asked to be paid top 5 money. ONE SPORTS WRITER suggested that Harrison\'s contract COULD impact Horn\'s demands, but Horn has not (at least not publically) demanded top 5 money.

Next to the first part. So your logic says that even though the guy\'s play hasn\'t trailed off in the last 5 years, and even though he\'s coming off his best year ever, the Saints should wait to sign him to an extension until he\'s older and slower? How is giving him huge money when he\'s 34 or 35 or 36 better than giving it to him when he\'s 33?

Again, no he has not. This is a rumor propogated by certain people here to create sensation. Horn has not asked for top 5 money.

Probably not, especially given his age. Horn will inevitably slow down. No one argues that. Likewise, he hasn\'t shown signs yet, and he is deserving of a raise based on his performance for the team so far. If he plays out this year and then you franchinse him next year he makes $4.8 this season and $9 or so next season. That\'s nearly $14 million for two seasons without knowing whether you\'ll have him for a third year. Want me to show you how to keep Horn for less? Restructure his deal to reduce his current cap expense and add years (i.e. 4 years, 25 million - which would be 8 for 50, which is close enough to the Harrison mark - and you get Joe for 4 more years - that is you add three to his contract). Then you structure the deal with incentives, etc, but even without, just straight salary, you could easily do something like this:

Year 1: 3 million
Year 2: 5 million
Year 3: 7 million
Year 4: 10 million

That way, if Horn\'s play falls off before the 2008 season you could cut him and save $10 million. In otherwords, you get him for 3 more years for $15 million, or about an average of $1 mill more per year than what he\'s currently making. Get it?

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

HORN PRODUCES BIG EVERY YEAR!! CHECK HIS STATS!!

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

Too long, I\'ve made my point... it\'s like talking to a one-sided wall...

Why would he sign that retarded contract idea knowing that NFL contracts aren\'t guaranteed and it\'s back loaded? Hey papz, stop talking to yourself... time to move on.

Closing statement on my part...

\"But go ahead and talk about how Horn should be cut, just like you all did last season. When he goes to the Pro Bowl next year, you\'ll all be talking about how he really really should be cut. And when he\'s inducted into the Saints Hall of Fame, you\'ll all be talking about how much you loved the guy. Whatever.\"

\"I laughed when you said Saints Hall of Fame because in a weird way it helped prove my point. Moss, Owens, and Harrison will someday be in the NFL Hall of Fame. Get the picture?\"


[Edited on 16/2/2005 by papz]

WWL Fourth Down on 4
 

You mean, like the backloaded contract he\'s playing under right now??? Nearly ALL NFL contracts are backloaded, ESPECIALLY veteran contracts.

They probably will. Had Horn broken out when he was 25 instead of when he was 30 the same could be said. He simply won\'t have enough years, but that doesn\'t mean that his numbers over the last 5 years aren\'t TOP FIVE. Aaron Brooks got a top 5 contract - are his numbers top 5?