Originally Posted by Saintsfan4ever (Post 717738)

Let me explain in case you were sleeping in your 8th grade Civics class. Freedom of Speech in the US Constitution means you can speak-out and address grievances against your GOVERNMENT in public or private and the GOVERNMENT is forbidden to abridge that right.

I am a business owner. If one of my employees shows up to work and says "Capitalism sucks! We need Socialism!" I can fire that person on the spot (if I wanted to), because their freedom of speech is not protected in the workplace. Their freedom of speech is only protected against the GOVERNMENT taking action against them for their comments. Capiche?

In other words, Freedom of Speech does not guarantee that you're exempt from the consequences of what you say. It only means that the Federal Government can not pass a law or enforce a law to shut-you-up if you speak out against the Government. That is why the Founders included Freedom of Speech in the 1st Amendment. It's not a pass to say whatever you wanta say, whenever you wanta say it, to whomever you wanta say it to.

SkyMike, you rock!

Originally Posted by exiled (Post 717765)

I assume your employees are non union and do not have a contract. So, yes, you can fire them. NFL players have in their contracts what they can or can not wear. Which is why CK can not write "Cops Suck" on his uniform.

He is not however required to stand. It is his right. No, I was not sleeping in my 8th grade civics class... how did you phrase it? capiche?

speaking of civics...

When a judge walks into a court room and the court clerk says, "All rise for the honorable Judge Barbra Jones." You are required to stand (if you are able) or could be held in contempt of court. The judge is sovereign over his or her court room. You are also required to take off your hat when instructed to do so. You could be held in contempt of court, if you don't.

HOWEVER, we say in this country (that I happen to love) "Please Rise for the National Anthem." It is a request - one that does not have to be honored. If it were required - either through a law or through threat of loosing your job, it would no longer be a country worth standing up for.

Yes, SaintsFan4Ever, you could take your employees to the game and if they did not stand for the National Anthem you could fire them, and with out a contract they would have no recourse.

and it is too bad that they do not. I don't know what 8th grade civics class you took but it was not me that was sleeping through mine... capiche?

Originally Posted by exiled (Post 717730)

“People have been fired from jobs for "so called" freedom of speech.”

True, if you do not have a contract you can be fired for just about anything. You have very few Federally protected rights any more as a non contracted employee. ie Race, Sexual Orientation, gender and disabilities. After that, you can be fired because the Boss does not like the fact your car is blue. You have no recourse.

That is a shame, but true. You are right.
HOWEVER, if you have a contract, and the contract does not state that such an action is part of your job description you are not in-breach of contract. Players do not have to stand but they do have to wear pink on Breast Cancer awareness Week(s.)

The real crime is that the strongest unions are for people that make the most money... Athletes and Pilots.

So, no you are neither the first, nor DID you explain anything.

“...the NFL should be exercising their right as an employer and providing consequences for his BS actions. Guess what, it is also our right as fans and the people who,in part, fund the NFL to ask for such actions to be taken.”

Sure, that is within your right to do... demand that the next round of rookies have in their contract that they MUST salute a flag... However, it is as un-American an idea as I can think of.

Use force and coercion to pledge your loyalty?... Isn’t that forced patriotism? Is that patriotism at all? It is not any form I recognize, nor indorse.

“...where was he when Amy Inita Joyner-Frances was murdered? BTW- make sure you go look up who she is because you have no idea. Where was his protest then? Hypocritical little punk that he is.”


First off, you loose credibility in your argument when you, one: demand forced patriotism; and two: tell me what ideas I have or don’t have. Those are not ideas that I wave a flag for... perhaps you do... it is what makes this country great...

Poor on poor violence is indeed tragic... I believe if he spoke out against poor on poor violence, or school bullies, or any of the other issues attached to the tragedy you site you would reprimand him for that too, and if so ...who is the hypocrite?

“F-him and every other hypocrite protesting who do nothing about the inner city violence that is destroying black men and women, families, every single day.”

He is calling attention to police discrimination... which is a problem in the inner city. It is. Period. I live in Oakland where only 30% of the population is black, however 80% of the deaths by police have been black. and he is calling attention to the issue. That is NOT nothing. So to say F-Him is well... hypocritical.

“The NFL should immediately suspend anyone disrespecting the Flag of this country, and if they won't then it is well within our purview to ask for such actions.”

It is certainly with in your rights to ask - but to live in a land where patriotism is demanded is not American at all.

Originally Posted by exiled (Post 717730)

“People have been fired from jobs for "so called" freedom of speech.”

True, if you do not have a contract you can be fired for just about anything. You have very few Federally protected rights any more as a non contracted employee. ie Race, Sexual Orientation, gender and disabilities. After that, you can be fired because the Boss does not like the fact your car is blue. You have no recourse.

That is a shame, but true. You are right.
HOWEVER, if you have a contract, and the contract does not state that such an action is part of your job description you are not in-breach of contract. Players do not have to stand but they do have to wear pink on Breast Cancer awareness Week(s.)

The real crime is that the strongest unions are for people that make the most money... Athletes and Pilots.

So, no you are neither the first, nor DID you explain anything.

“...the NFL should be exercising their right as an employer and providing consequences for his BS actions. Guess what, it is also our right as fans and the people who,in part, fund the NFL to ask for such actions to be taken.”

Sure, that is within your right to do... demand that the next round of rookies have in their contract that they MUST salute a flag... However, it is as un-American an idea as I can think of.

Use force and coercion to pledge your loyalty?... Isn’t that forced patriotism? Is that patriotism at all? It is not any form I recognize, nor indorse.

“...where was he when Amy Inita Joyner-Frances was murdered? BTW- make sure you go look up who she is because you have no idea. Where was his protest then? Hypocritical little punk that he is.”


First off, you loose credibility in your argument when you, one: demand forced patriotism; and two: tell me what ideas I have or don’t have. Those are not ideas that I wave a flag for... perhaps you do... it is what makes this country great...

Poor on poor violence is indeed tragic... I believe if he spoke out against poor on poor violence, or school bullies, or any of the other issues attached to the tragedy you site you would reprimand him for that too, and if so ...who is the hypocrite?

“F-him and every other hypocrite protesting who do nothing about the inner city violence that is destroying black men and women, families, every single day.”

He is calling attention to police discrimination... which is a problem in the inner city. It is. Period. I live in Oakland where only 30% of the population is black, however 80% of the deaths by police have been black. and he is calling attention to the issue. That is NOT nothing. So to say F-Him is well... hypocritical.

“The NFL should immediately suspend anyone disrespecting the Flag of this country, and if they won't then it is well within our purview to ask for such actions.”

It is certainly with in your rights to ask - but to live in a land where patriotism is demanded is not American at all.

Originally Posted by exiled (Post 717773)

"What makes you assume that there is anything in their contracts that protects them? Simply having a contract doesn't give you the freedom to say or act as you please. Players get suspended for a little something called 'conduct detrimental to the team'.

If a team decides that a player is causing a distraction by his actions they reserve the right to consider that detrimental conduct." - Burning Metal

Because the NFL says, '“Players are encouraged but not required to stand during the playing of the National Anthem.” You can not sign a contract to an organization with a policy like that and then say his actions are detrimental. and Johnnyrotten, you are right this is boring.

I love that sports attracts people with different views but I hate that it brings out some of our basest passions.

You are encouraged to eat your vegitables but not required. Sure, not doing so is stupid, unhealthy, but you are not required.