oakland ups ante for howard
 

Billy,

Maybe you should tell the Titans how \"the cap can always be made to work in the short run\".

The simple fact of the matter is that that is not the case. The cap is a very real problem for us right now. The only way it can be \"made to work\" is if (1) Howard signs with us for much much less than he wants AND doesn\'t get paid his tender amount of 7.8 mil, or (2) we restructure enough OTHER contracts to free up another 3 mil (that should make us pretty popular).

Now, (2) is possible, but I don\'t think it is any where near as simple as you make it sound. Furthermore, it won\'t be better for us next year when those contracts, like Bentley\'s, are up next year and we still have Howard - we only have one franchise tag after all. Trade Howard now or risk losing more players and getting nothing for him.

I\'m still on board for the player for player trade, BUT we do need to move Howard.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

JKool --

We\'ve got some players like Deuce and Bentley that are under contract but they need to be extended.

But, they\'re under contract this year and they just might have to wait. I could give a damn less if their feelings get hurt. All I can tell \'em is \"welcome\" tothe real world.\"

And in the real world things don\'t always happen exactly like you want them to.

Are Deuce and Le Charles going to sit out the year? Are they only going to give 50%? I don\'t think that will be the case but if they do then we really didn\'t need them to begin with.

I\'m no cap expert, but if I were in charge I would do what\'s best for the team and if some contracts had to wait, then I\'d make the tough, if unpopular, decision.

What would the Patriots do?

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I don\'t think that Duece or Bentley will sit out. That wasn\'t my point. Next year, Howard will again by a UFA, but so will Bentley. Only one of them can be franchized, so one will have to get a contract before next year or we could lose one with NO COMPENSATION. I just don\'t see what is so confusing about this: we don\'t have the money to sign our rookies and keep Howard, unless we cut a bunch of guys salaries, take a risk at losing Howard next year with no compensation, and don\'t extend McAllister, McKenzie, and Bentley (among others).

Too high a price to pay to keep a 3rd DE when we need LBs and DTs.

As far as I\'m concerned, they can all suck it up in terms of what they get paid next year, it is the future that matters more to me. I know you are very concerned for what is best for the team - what is best for the team is dealing Howard while we can still get some value for him, locking in our other skilled players for a few more years, and getting a freakin\' LB.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I think that we should trade Howard for what ever 2nd round pick (early to mid) that we can get. I will even take a 3rd. round this year and a conditional pick next year if we can get it. The older he get the less value he will have and with him sharing time with Smith team will feel that he is less valuable to us because he is not the main guy so his value will drop in that way also. I would accept a player for player trade but it has to be a player that will have the same impact that Howard has. I don\'t see us being able to trade to the Raiders before the draft next week unless they move Woodson first because they do not have the cap room to take on Howard even if we got PB.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Forget the Raiders trading their second round pick to the saints this year. They are already without a first rounder and for some reason, teams are enamored with draft picks in this league. Although, if you come away with Randy Moss and Darren Howard with your two first round picks....you did pretty good.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Gumbo, the only reason a 2nd rdr is risky is because we are the ones doing the picking!!!!!

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Fully on board with JKool on this one, or is Kool on board with me? Whatever the case, unless Howard is the missing ingredient in us getting to the Superbowl, which he ain\'t, we gotta trade him. Or let him walk next year for NOTHING. So to me, getting a second this year is much more desirable than getting NOTHING next year when he walks, and we still aren\'t in the Superbowl. Player for player trade is ideal, but although I like Buchanon, he ain\'t exactly setting the league on fire. And Woodson was moved to safety cause of his injuries and faltering ability at corner last year. Yeah, that sounds equal to Howard. Plus his agents are the Postons. In case you don\'t know, that is a headache you do not want for your team. IF you need an example, look at Orlando Pace. Cause of the Postons, he had to be franchised 3-4 years in a row. Soon as he fired them, he signs a long term deal. Coincidence? Look at Julius Peterson. The Postons had him asking for a contract with a bonus similar to Peyton MAnning\'s. WTF?? For a LB?? So how either of those options look better than an extra second rounder that we could use to move up, or look better than letting Howard walk for nothing next year is really beyond me. Howard has to go, and a high second is damn fine to make that happen. If we get more, all the better. But I am not holding my breath.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

If we take a 2nd for Howard, then chances are it doesn\'t help very much. And that\'s the bottom line. That is ... unless we get very lucky.

Okay fellas ... what if we can only get a 3rd? Do we take that?

Or what about a 4th? Do we take that?

We gotta get rid of Howard, right?

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I thought we were talking about a second. I don\'t see what a 3rd or 4th has to do with anything. Howard for a second is a good idea. That\'s the argument. Makes anything less than a second a bad idea no? So we can go on down the line to a 7th rounder for Howard, but the argument it taking a second for Howard is a good idea. Let\'s stay there.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

No ... let\'s not stay with a 2nd.

What JKool has suggested, and you agreed with, is that Howard must go so we can free up cap space for other purposes.

Right? Of course that\'s right. That\'s exactly what JKool said.

If that\'s the case then we should take whatever a team gives us?

Right?

How can we possibly keep Darren Howard? Let\'s just take a 3rd or 4th if that\'s the best we can do.

Right?

Right?

Hmmmmmmmm...........

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I agree with JKool and everybody else who thinks that Howard needs to be shipped this year. He is very expendible considering he is now a backup. Sure we might be able to get more for Howard if we waited a year, but he needs to be shipped this offseason. He\'s a huge liability, and honestly I think we have much more pressing needs at positions like LB than to worry about an aging DE who is going to be playing behind the promising Will Smith. Besides, what\'s the big problem with getting a second-round pick? Depending on who we draft in the first round, a 2nd rounder could be used to draft an impact linebacker.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Look here folks ...

I\'m one of the biggest proponents of trading Darren Howard.

But only if we can get a player that is going to contribute this year. And not one that just takes up space on the field, either.

Darren Howard had ELEVEN sacks last year!!!

And many of those sacks came when Darren Howard was on the field with Will Smith.

We\'re just going to give up those ELEVEN sacks for what? A 2nd ? Maybe that\'s the best we can do. But I\'ll take those 11-sacks.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

If it is the case, and I have every reason to believe it is, we cannot take the 11 sacks without restructuring a bunch of contracts or Howard\' - since we cannot sign our draft picks with Howard on the roster.

Furthermore, I still agree that a player for player trade is perfectly acceptable. I don\'t know what this BS is about taking a third or whatever we can get - there will still be competition among teams who want Howard (driving his price up), EVEN IF THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN KEEP HIM. It isn\'t like he\'s going to go cheap, so long as people want him.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

JKool --

Hey, you\'re the one who made the case that we MUST get rid of Darren Howard. You basically said it would hurt the team to keep him because of cap reasons.

If that is the case, then why would you be against taking a 3rd or 4th for Howard? It frees up cash to take care of other players. Right?

I only used the 3rd or 4th round as an example to show that the cap isn\'t the end-all to the Darren Howard trade.

[Edited on 16/4/2005 by GumboBC]

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Point taken.

My secondary point is this: we\'re not in a position to worry about whether or not we\'re going to have to take a 3rd or 4th. The market is set around a 2nd - someone will give us that or player of nearly equal value exactly because Howard is a valuable commodity (in fact, he is much more valuable to some other teams than he is to us).

That said, the cap is the end all as to whether or not we can keep Howard (and we cannot without some serious work and his giving up on his ridiculous salary demands). It is just not the end all with respect to what we will get for him.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I agree with JKool, if we could get Raiders second, I am all for it. But if they were just willing to give a 3rd, another team would be ready to give a 2nd, more than likely. I would be willing to give up 11 sacks from DH, if we can get them from Smith and have that second help us in a bigger area of need.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

heck id take the 38th pick in the draft.. there will be some good players at that spot and that would give us 3 picks in the top 40... if there is nothing better... id make it happen... the only other teams ive heard that are interested are dallas but they likely wont give up their 1st rounder and they pick after oakland in the 2nd round at 42, and then there is seattle which has picks at 23 and 54 in the 1st n 2nd rounds so if the highest is oakland at 38 then i would definetly have to do it.... with one other factor being that oakland is in the AFC

oakland ups ante for howard
 

also if we do trade howard that frees up cap room that can be used to help resign deuce to a long term contract!!!

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Exactly, pak. Exactly.

Also that extra money can be used to generate long term contracts for Grant, Bentley, McKenzie, AND McAllister. OR we can be in the same predicament next year AND potentially lose Howard with NO compensation at all.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

every team has at least a few players that demand the big bucks..........every team...................
question is, are they worth it? and furthermore if they\'re worth it, can we afford them? i love the depth and would love to keep howard...........if we don\'t get nothing next yr and whoa, we may be losing a measly 2nd this yr for him so what? we\'ll have a prime time player for a year. what\'s wrong with that? what if he gets double digit sacks again? to our advantage or no? what if he does\'nt and no tag is placed? people, there will be a tomorrow, relax.....smitty

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Yes, even with Howard\'s 11 sacks we were LAST in the NFL in yardage allowed. I am glad he got 11 sacks, maybe that is a negotiation point that will allow us to get more for him than we normally would have. IF we get pick #38, and it allows us to move up for DJ, AND still have another second, who is gonna be mad at that? Noone. The 2nd round pick is much more than just a value for Howard. It sets the table for us to make more moves in the draft, besides the benefits of having the money to sign our draft picks and extend contracts. There somes a point when we need to stop overvaluing players just cause they wear black and gold. Howard has been injured the past two years. He himself was a 2nd round pick. Teams in this era are placing a premium on draft picks. Better players than Howard are being shopped for less than a first. Howard should not be on this team next year unless we wanna have more headaches than we need. I asked before, is Howard the key for us making the Superbowl? Hell no. Then he can go. And a high second sounds mighty nice. Even if we don\'t use it to trade up for DJ, having a first and two seconds in a deep draft seems like a good idea to me.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I totally agree saintswhodi.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

from raiders inside slant-

Certainly, the Raiders would prefer to send Woodson not just out of
the AFC West but out of the AFC altogether. They are believed to
covet New Orleans defensive end Darren Howard, who is also being
franchised.

A straight swap of Woodson for Howard would give the Raiders the
pass rush force they desperately are seeking (11 sacks, 4 forced
fumbles in 2004) and by signing Howard long term, a bonus
arrangement would free up cap space. Unfortunately, the truth of the
matter is that the Saints aren\'t really shopping for secondary help
and whether they could reach a deal with the Postons (the stumbling
block on all trade talk) is iffy.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I suppose it is possible that a second round pick this year is not worth more than Howard\'s next full year of production for us and then losing him next year with no compensation, but I am skeptical. It strikes me that we need a lot of help on D, and we just aren\'t gaining that much by keeping Howard. Everybody is in love with Bockwoldt, and he was a seventh rounder, I don\'t think that a second is a bad deal for Howard.

I also agree with Whodi. The extra second round pick will give us more options in trades come draft day - but I think Howard does that too.

I\'d take Woodson if we could seriously restructure his contract, but that might well mean not being able to seal some long term deals the same way Howard is right now. I guess, I\'m not sold on dealing for Woodson unless I knew some of the details of his impending contract.

zach, buddy, you\'re very agreeable this evening.

Whodi, I know this is going to sound silly, but \"no one\" is two words, not one (\"noone\"). I wouldn\'t mention it normally, since I find people correcting spelling, etc. on a web board a bit annoying some days, but I read all of your posts (as you know) and I can\'t help but find that one thing distracting. ;)

oakland ups ante for howard
 

while i\'d love to have dj, everything would have to fall in place. the trade would have to take place with a team on the clock and dj still available.........
too much risk factor other than that. even getting a second will leave you with just another pick if you can\'t cut a deal. so, that\'s just an unproven for a polished player. not a good deal when you look at it that way...........smitty

oakland ups ante for howard
 

ricks early mock draft has 2 qbs, 3 rbs, 2 cbs, and 2 wrs, going at the top........while i don\'t look for every team to follow suit to this, realistically dj could be there at 10. now, who say, from 6-10 really needs and would take and rework a long term contract for howard? this is what it really boils down to in order to have a shot of getting up there. smitty

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I still think that people don\'t really grap the fact that Howard WILL NOT be here this season. Maybe it\'s denial.

Howard is more of a liability than he is an asset, due to his $7.8 mil cap figure. That is a lot of money, even in the NFL. We simply can\'t afford to keep him. No ifs, ands, or buts. Would you rather us get an \"unproven\" player, as you say, this year for Howard, or get absolutely squat for him next year? The draft pick will provide many more years of servicable play, while Howard would be around for only 2005.

Yeah everything would have to fall into place to get DJ but we have to at least put ourselves into a reasonable position to do it, if we are to have a shot at getting him.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I\'m with you GT.

A second round pick and 7.8 mil in extra space to rework deals with McKenzie, McAllister, Bentley, and Grant (and sign our rookies too) is of greater value than a third DE, even if it is Howard and his 11 sacks.

I don\'t think the extra second will allow us to move up to get DJ, but he isn\'t the only player who can help us. And, I agree, that the \"unproven guy\" may be a guy who later replaces one of our aging players - extending our window.

Howard is a luxury (as he is a third starting quality DE). We cannot afford luxuries when we cannot stop the run. We need to move him for someone who will start (or will start soon) much more than we need to keep him as a rotational player.

And we cannot afford to keep him and sign our rookies. I\'m not just saying that. We have 1 mil in cap space, and we need about 3.8 mil to sign a decent draft class.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

succinctly said kool. all you keep howard unless we get a first people do the math.

4 million needed to sign drafted players

current cap room 1 million

-3 million cap deficit

you cannot sign players and go negative on the cap without harsh penalties from the league. howard will have to go before we can even bring those players into camp.

that is not even beginning to address the room needed to negotiate extenstions for deuce, bentley, etc.

if woodson could be negotiated into a reasonable deal we might even get some pick with him. the raiders are at just a few thousand dollars of cap room and cw is gonna cost them 10mil+ tagged. their need to move him is much greater than n.o.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

not only would the cap space be wonderful but there is a lot of talent in this draft....alot of players can fall anywhere from late first to early 3rd so during that part of the draft its just a crap shoot as to where players will end up and an extra 2nd rounder will give us a better chance at getting someone we highly covet in that range

the luxury of having to early 2nd round picks......not only do u get someone who is just as talented as someone who is taken in the late 1st round but he is about 1/3 the cost!!!

oakland ups ante for howard
 

see denver trade rumor pak. i think you\'ll like my math there.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

as i said before, i\'d rather have howard play this yr and get squat for him next yr..........at least i know i have a player...smitty

oakland ups ante for howard
 

smitty, so all contract extensions are put off? somebody will HAVE TO BE cut then to clear some money space for the draft picks. We need 3-4 million lopped off for that. If not Howard, who then?

oakland ups ante for howard
 

Exactly. :casstet:

oakland ups ante for howard
 

look, while in reality howard may be gone, he\'s still here for the time being...........as far as finding money, contracts are reworked all the time..........as long as a player gets what they want and everyone is happy, who cares? is duece unreplaceable? what it gets down to is the same situation as howard, sort of........you do your time, and you want the mucho cash..............bottom line..........guys, girls, i do understand what you\'re saying and while you\'re antsy now, if everything falls apart and howard is here, we will find the money and the way, for this yr. i mean, look at mckenzie, we gave a 2nd for him, did\'nt we? you don\'t think this man will want mucho cash? hell, they all will, those that prove themselves. bottom line again, we have a time frame to build and win (where is new england\'s recipe when you need it) and in that time frame we not only need to lock up the key players, but the key back ups as well for at least a few yrs once everything is in place. are we there? time was i thought we were close, but no, we are not there and as of now, not that close as i thought we were............smitty

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I don\'t think I understand your point ssmitty. I\'m just being honest here, it isn\'t a criticism.

A bunch of us have pointed out a variety of problems with keeping Howard. The simplest problem is that we will have to rework a number of contracts just to sign Howard along with our draft picks. Secondarily, it is highly likely that we\'ll lose him next offseason anyway and we will get nothing. I just don\'t see why that sounds like a \"we\'ll be fine\" kind of situation - that sounds bad to me.

I\'m not antsy to move Howard. If Howard were asking for 3 mil a year and some signing bonus, then I\'d certainly be all for keeping him. He isn\'t.

He can get us roughly 11 sacks this year or a 2nd round draft pick - which is what he was. So the idea that getting a 2nd rounder is like getting nothing makes no sense to me.

Please tell the Titans how contracts can always be reworked to \"make it happen.\" It is simply not the case that there is always something that can be done.

I\'m not sure why people don\'t buy that the cap is a serious stumbling block. LK\'s math seems flawless to me. It is not like we have a lot of guys with big contracts who will rework so that we can keep Howard, who will be in a 3 man rotation rather than a true starter. I guess people must think, sheesh, when guys like Gandy, Brooks, and Horn hear that they have to \"rework\" their contracts so we can keep Howard and sign our draft picks, they\'ll be overjoyed. That will certainly improve the reputation of our organization and help us retain and attract quality players.

The Titans are the most recent example of what happens when you don\'t play smart with the cap (or you blow your load and don\'t come through).

oakland ups ante for howard
 

jk, i believe only one player needs their contract reworked this yr. if that is the case even a player with 2yrs remaining may not jump to sign an extension offered.......like i said, they all want the big bucks. the titans, we are not.........i never said if we don\'t get a first keep howard. i simply questioned why howard would\'nt be worth at least a first. truth is, besides the rumors, where we ever really offered something concrete? i don\'t recall seeing anything..........and, while we are where we are, i\'d still like to see how smith does this yr. he is very promising but i\'m still not sold.....
as a few have pointed out, we always seem to get rid of the right ones and keep the wrong ones......
why do we always seem to get more project players that go backwards instead of forward? and finally on a different subject i still believe to this day that jake shoulda been our qb. the man\'s a player and we let him go. after that, i thought jt would be next in line, but we let him go too. another player gone.......and so here we are with hot and cold brooks.....a defense that still needs a lot of help and many wishes...smitty

oakland ups ante for howard
 

--i am not up on the status of every contract but the team has voiced desire to rework deuce, bentley, and mckenzie to longer terms. though being contracted this year, it is prudent for both the team and player to extend. the team identifies the core players needed for a plan of success and then has them tied down for a few years. the terms of an extension usually result in net lower cap impact to the team in the first few years of the contract. (most nfl contracts are fantasy fluff on the backend these days, money that player will never see. ie wr muhammed carolina this winter). the player attains longer security.
i think enough case has been made on other threads if not this one about the market value of howard. somewher between randy moss (1st & a player) and gerard warren (4th). seldom do you see the negotiating and the offers made unless it has reached an impasse like arizona n buffalo in the shelton for henry deal. jerry jones said the teams couldn\'t agree on compensation. so, some kinda offer was made.
i\'m not trying to be contentious either smitty, but you did say you would rather have howard this season and get squat next year. that could happen but you never offered any suggestions to what other players would be cut to create salary cap room in that case. your preference may be to put off negotiations with deuce, bentley, and mckenzie and let them hit the free market. even if it is though, i think the fo has made it clear they want to make these happen before the coming season begins. that reality must be addressed as well as the draft picks salaries/bonuses somehow.
as far as this current administrations abilities i have sang the blues about that too much for some here already. i hope to no end for the team\'s success. i may not have a lot of faith this group can do it but i ain\'t gonna give up now after 38 years.

oakland ups ante for howard
 

well, we kinda screwed ourselves with tebucky, did\'nt we? what does sullivan count against it? how about bouman? and deals are supposed to be in the works for thomas, boo, and maybe more........and just for arguements sake, what is brooks counting against it? if it\'s more than 100 dollars i say rework it immediately...........i think they will find a way either way, really.........don\'t you? smitty

oakland ups ante for howard
 

I don\'t actually think there is a way, without serious juggling and possibly hurting the team more.

Our best bet would be Gandy, who is due something like 5 mil this season, and clearly not 5 mil good.

T-buck did screw us. If we\'d kept him, we could have restructured rather than taking an additional 1 mil loss - that might have saved us almost 2-3 mil in cap space (if restructured). Instead we cut him, in what I take to be one of our more bone headed moves of this offseason.

Bouman\'s contract and Thomas\', if memory serves me, are in the 1-1.5 mil range. Restructuring them won\'t help too much if I\'m right about that. Also, I\'m a bit unclear on the rules for restructuring and the initial signing bonuses, so that may shake things up a bit.

Brooks will be in the 5-6 mil range too, again if my memory serves. Getting him to restructure would be a good start, but I don\'t think you\'ll talk him down to 2 mil (the amount we\'d have to get him to to sign our rookies).

At least we thinking about a serious plan now.

Sullivan is acutally shockingly low - he\'s in the 0.5 mil range (though if we cut him, his pro-rated signing bonus would hurt us badly).

I still don\'t think it is possible to swing a deal that will keep Howard here without seriously jeapordizing our current players and who we can retain come next year.