DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Since Philly picked DT Patterson with their 1st pick, I wonder if a Simon/Howard trade is more attractive to both teams now?
Wouldn't bother me one bit either way.
Just a thought.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Let\'s do it. They lost Burgess on the other side of Kearse and have a glut of DTs now. It makes sense. We need a pro bowl DT, they could use a stud DE. They drafted another stud DT. Sounds win win to me. Nice analysis of the situation.

[Edited on 25/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

I think one of our FO guru\'s poo-pooed the idea before, saying they really didn\'t want to send Howard to a NFC team.

But of couse do they realize Dallas is in the NFC also? :casstet:

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

And seattle, and Washington, teams all discussed as possible trade partners. Maybe they don\'t realize. As long as he is out of our division, why should we care if he is in the conference? This is a deal I would 1000% agree with if they did it. Might be the best deal since we traded Ricky for two firsts. ;)

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Is Simon franchised? I thought that was basically the one legitimate knock on Howard - he\'s franchised.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Yup, they are both franchised. Shouldn\'t cause a snag though, especially for us since Simon\'s cap number is lower than Howard\'s even with the franchise tag.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

nayyyyyyy, it won\'t work...........he\'s 31 and over the hill, just like howard.........what\'s 2 yrs difference? a smaller cap?
come on,,,,,,,,,,do better.......................

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Simon\'s at what? $6 million??? And we can SUPPOSEDLY sign Howard to a long-term deal that costs us $2 million this season.... I just don\'t get it. If Howard is such a problem for our cap then why wouldn\'t Simon be the same?

You\'re for franchised players, just so long as their names aren\'t Howard???

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

A pro bowl DT that has a lower cap number is a NEED for us, a non-pro bowl but good DE is not. Christ.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Furthermore, we could renegotiate Simon\'s contract just as we \"did\" (I\'m not convinced that we have - when he signs that \"new\" contract, I\'ll buy it) with Howard\'s.

I like that trade, IF philly tosses in a late round pick next year (because I\'m greedy). Actually, that doesn\'t sound too bad to me.

The downside as I see it: if Sully shows up this year, we could have gotten a LB for Howard. However, if Sully shows up and we have Simon, why would we need a LB? Damn.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

convince me that we need a washed up pro bowler for a little less money please.................smitty

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Well ssmitty, while I agree with you that Simon\'s contract would have to be worked out first, I don\'t see how you can complain about his skills and experience.

At least, as a DT, he\'d be on the field more than Howard will be. Isn\'t that enough of an argument. Howard didn\'t help us stop the run last year, Simon (even if he is on the decline) would.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

smitty. huh? How is Corey Simon washed up? He is 28, and a stud. He has only been in the league 5 years and has missed 2 games his whole career, as opposed to Howard\'s what 11 or so the last two? Seriously? corey Simon washed up? Wow.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

now where did i hear or read he was 31? misprint? my mistake? maybe both? i\'d like to use a life line please.......i\'d like to call my dad.................
now, while i see the need, the money is still an issue.........
is\'nt that what it\'s all about?
how can you justify spending what we don\'t have?
how can we? stalemate?

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

I feel like I am repeating myself. We don\'t have the money for HOWARD, cause he is a luxury. We are in no need of another starting DE. We are CRAVING a starting DT. Simon is a pro bowler and cheaper. Last I heard, his cap figure is like 5.1 mil, not 6. Howard\'s is 7.8. Math takes us to a difference of 2.7 mil just in the trade alone. Even if his figure is 6, which I don\'t think it is, that\'s a difference of 1.8 mil LESS at a position of much greater need. I don\'t see what the problem is with that. Grant had a half sack less than Howard, but WAY more tackles. Smith had more fumble forces, and had 7.5 sacks himself.

Here\'s the difference Corey Simon makes. Remember Trotter went to Washington? Everyone said he was washed up and the Redsking wasted their money and so on. Truth was, Redskign had no DTs to occupy blockers and let Trotter run free. He goes back to the Eagles at a minimal salary, and in 8 games as the starter makes the Pro Bowl, cause Corey Simon is occupying the line and freeing him up to make plays. That is the strongest case for Simon I can see, besides the lower cap hit and him being a pro bowler, and not being injured.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Word saintswhodi, word

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

ok, you sold me............
i\'ll take trotter at minimal salary................smitty

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Thanks smitty, I would appreciate if next time before I try to explain my feelings on a matter you let me know up front it won\'t make a difference.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Actually the deal makes sense for both teams but Howard wants an extension. As does Simon, Hollis Thomas (there other DT), Owens... Eagles don\'t want to give large contracts out to Simon and Thomas, so why would they want to give one to Howard? But you never know, I would love to have Simon here... or Thomas.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Simply as a matter of \"need,\" I\'m in support of the (theoretical) trade. Most agree Will Smith is ready to start, even if he\'s not reached Howard\'s calibre quite yet, and he draws less water against the overall cap.

There\'s also little disagreement that DT remains a question mark. Sure, Sully might stop up - would be super if he does - but we have no evidence that will be the case. Thus, DT remains a \"need,\" with no clear players ready to step up. Simon is a fine DT and could take over immediately if said trade were to take place.

Conclusion #1: DT is a bigger need than DE.

Financially, we can argue all day about cap numbers. We often do. As it stands, barring some sort of long term deal (which is rumored to have been proposed), Howard stands to pull down $7.8 Million dollars this season alone. See whodi\'s post above for related math.

If you wanna go the \"restructure Howard\'s contract\" route, what\'s keeping us from doing the same with Simon\'s? Dollars and sense, as you may...

Conclusion #2: Financially, Simon makes as much (if not obviously MORE) sense than Howard, not to mention fitting a more pressing \"need\" per above.

Not trying to incite more arguing, just not sure I understand the objections unless the consensus is that Simon is truly \"washed up.\"

By the way, per NFL.com, Simon is 28 years old...

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187398

[Edited on 25/4/2005 by mutineer10]

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

while we\'re on the theoretical trade, i would like to propose sending howard along with brooks and our first rounder for the next few yrs to new england for brady...........just call benson, nothing ventured, nothing gained.............if anything a good laugh never hurt anyone............smitty

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Is DT really a need?

According to most Saints\' fans its a huge need.

But what insight do fans really have?

Most fans are way too emotional when it comes to Jonathan Sullivan.

I\'ve heard Haslett say on more than one occassion that Sullivan is extremely talented and that his attitude is what has held him back.

I heard defensive line coach John Pease say the samething.

I\'ve read where Sullivan has a new attitude and that he\'s been working out and losing weight. (He\'s almost at his ideal playing weight now.)

If you listen to fans, then there\'s no way Sullivan is a player for us this year.

If you listen to Haslett and John Pease then there\'s more of a reason to believe Sullivan will contribute.

Given that Sullivan was a 1st round talent when he was drafted then is it really worth the risk of drafting a DT in the first round when Sullivan might step up?

If Sullivan does step up then it would seem like a foolish pick when you consider we had so many other needs on defense.

If Sullivan doesn\'t step up ... are all of our other DTS so bad?

Simply stated: With the way Haslett and Loomis approached free-agency and the draft ... it seems like they are pretty confident with Sullivan and our exsisting defensive tackles.

Not that Haslett is always right, but I\'ve got to put more faith in Haslett than the fans.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

30th against the run.

Good question. Aren\'t you a fan?

Agreed. Some love him for no reason.

Where? I won\'t even get into the whole issue from the last time about making a comment about what Haslett said BEFORE an article even came out. Any other examples? Just please explain where thes enumerous times occured that you heard this.

Got a link? And I want the words EXTREMELY TALENTED that you have heard MANY TIMES.

We all read that, he was twenty pounds overwight still. If you have read something more recent, please provide a link. Shouldn;t be too hard since you read it, and every media source is online.

Awaiting MANY TIMES, and the words EXTREMELY TALENTED.

No it wouldn\'t. You would have a pro bowl DT and an improved sullivan on the line. What\'s not to like about that? With Young for breathers. How is it better to pay starters money for a third DE in a rotation. THAT is foolish.

Yes.

Or there were no FA DTs they liked, and none they liked where they were drafting.

Haslett had Sullivan inactive the majority of last season, and Sullivan was healthy, so yes I agree. Based on that. we should all believe Haslett and not the fans. Sullivan is worthless even when healthy. Again, I agree.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Most of us on here seem to think so ... if you like Haslett\'s opinion better, that\'s fine with me. But whoever\'s OPINION you value more, it\'s a FACT that teams ran all over us last season.

Well, nobody said anything about drafting a DT ... we were discussing a theoretical trade for Corey Simon, a proven DT. Recall, I said it would be excellent if Sully steps up ... but where is the evidence? Somewhere in the hot dog line? It certainly wasn\'t on the field last season ... or the season before that...

See \"teams ran all over us last year\" above...

Again, that\'s fine with me. I don\'t care WHO stops the run ... but somebody needs to...

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

saintwhodi --

Seeing that you have called Sullivan a \"theif\" ... I really don\'t put a lot of stock in your opinion of Sullivan.

You\'ve written Sullivan off. And you have the that right.

But given the FACT that Sullivan is still on this team ... then I\'ve got to think Haslett believes in Sullivan.

Now, if I take the most \"pessimistic\" view on Jonathan Sullivan, then I\'d say he\'s a bum and he\'s a \"theif\".

But, I\'m going based on what I\'ve heard Haslett say with my own two ears.

I don\'t have a link where Loomis said they weren\'t going to trade Darren Howard \"unless soneone offers something that made his eyes roll\". But he said it nonetheless!!

If you want to believe I\'m lying ... then that\'s your right.

I, however, heard him say it. When I want to believe your opinion over Haslett and Loomis then I\'ll let you know.

Don\'t hold yoru breath!! :o

[Edited on 25/4/2005 by GumboBC]

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Hmm...

CHOICE: Defend the overall position OR simply defend Sullivan = ANSWER: simply defend Sullivan

Think I see where this is going...

Oh well, nice proposal anyway Danno. I still like the trade idea...

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Why is it that anytime anyone brings up the \"positives\" of Sullivan they are defending him?

I don\'t know Sullivan and I have no reason to defend Sullivan.

What I\'m doing is trying to show there might be a reason why DT wasn\'t addressed in free-agency of the draft.

And the reason may be that Haslett and John Pease believes Sullivan will step up? Is that impossible?

Is it impossible that a 1st round draft choice might produce?

Certainly it\'s not impossible.

There is NO way Haslett is going to publically state Sullivan is going to have a break-out year. They are going to be cautious regarding anything they say about Sullivan.

Nobody knows what to expect from Sullivan this year. Not me. Not you. Not any fans.

But I have to think with the Saints not addressing DT in the draft or free-agency that they feel pretty confident with who they have. Whether that\'s Sullivan or one of our other DTs.

As far as our run defense finishing 32nd. That isn\'t all on our DTs. With your reasoning ... we need to get rid or Brian Young, Howard Green, Coutney Watson, Cobly Bockwoldt, James Allen, Darren Howard, and Will Smith.

All of those players have a big role in stopping the run.

Does this mean I don\'t think we need DTs? Nope.

Just making some observations.



[Edited on 25/4/2005 by GumboBC]

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

GumboBC,

I wasn\'t attacking you. I said above I\'d be as happy as anyone if Sully finally shows up next season. It\'d be about lately - as far as I\'m concerned - but if he shows up I\'m thrilled.

I totally agree those players have a role in stopping the run, but it\'s rudimentary football knowledge that it all starts \"in the trenches.\" Didn\'t you say that about Jammal Brown?

I don\'t wanna cut the entire front seven, I just want them to stop the friggin\' run. Remember, I said:

Questions now, and these are not \"loaded,\" simply a matter of opinion...

To get back to the subject of the thread: Is DT a more pressing need than DE? Would you be interested in a Howard/Simon trade? Whodi pointed out Trotter\'s resurgence once he got back behind Corey Simon; do you think Watson, Fincher ... heck, Ruff ... could perform better with a Pro Bowl DT wrecking havoc in the middle?

I\'m still willing to give Sullivan a chance (though his chances are waning). But would you feel better about a proven DT - a player who has ALREADY realized & proven his potential - taking over if we could give up Howard to get it done?









[Edited on 25/4/2005 by mutineer10]

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Good points mutey. But you are gonna get the classic attack the poster and not the post responses. Notice how it was said that things were read MANY TIMES and said MANY Times, but there is not many links to be found? All I asked for was to read the same thing. First response, saintswhodi, you called Sullivan a thief. So basically, I have zero proof to what I am saying, so I will attack the poster and try to discredit them. Isn\'t that against the rules? But it\'s the typical response. Then peopel wonder why you get pissed at stuff like that. Of well, I tried. I went point by point, never attacked the poster, and never got a response except to attack something I said months ago. So if it smells like it, looks like it, and messes up your shoes like it, it must be :icon_bs:

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

This is one of those arguments that comes up from time to time. I always wonder why.

Here is the form:
Coach A says y
Therefore,
y.

I\'m certain that no one would be here to discuss anything if we all thought we should just believe whatever a coach/scout/professional journalist/whoever says. What would be the point in discussing anything?

I\'m sure you heard Haz and Pease say that Sullivan was talented, but I\'ve also heard them say \"he didn\'t come to camp prepared\", \"he came to camp overweight and out of shape.\" (well, Haz anyway)

Even if he is extremely talented, he\'s never on the field. It is hard to stop the run from the press box (or the buffet line). DT is a need UNLESS there is some stuff that is true about Sully that we haven\'t heard during this offseason or is somehow unknowable by us.

I think that the best position on Sully is this: he hasn\'t produced so far, and there is little evidence one way or the other whether or not he will this year. That means this: we have Young and Green and/or the big ol\' question mark that is Sully starting for us.

That seems sufficient to make the judgement that we have a need at DT. If Sully steps up then Simon and Sully would be our starters... damn. If we don\'t get Simon and Sully shows up, we\'ve got Young and Sully... solid to damn. Either way, if we keep Howard, we\'ve got Smith and Grant one way or the other. I fail to see what is bad about a Simon trade.

The question at hand isn\'t: what is the actually best thing for the Saints to do, since I agree fan\'s have a dearth of information. The question is: given the best arguments made, what does it seem reasonable for the Saints to do. That is the best we can ever do on a message board. I agree that fans are sometimes too emotional, but I wonder why you\'d think that it is fun or worth discussing in favor of coach\'s claim?

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

He is francised with a $5.134 million tender that he has signed. So from a contract status situation we would be trading one francised player for another. However, our need for DT help plus the over $2.5 million of immediate cap relief we would get if the trade happened, would seem to argue strongly for the merits of the trade.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

good point will. and welcome to the ring.

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

Thanks L! Easy to be here :D

Matt is my first name. Will is the start of my last name

DT Corey Simon available now?
 

\"....Good thing we didn\'t step in it.\"

Had to finish that quote.