DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

i was looking at profootballweekly.com and came across their draft reports for all the teams. of course i looked at the saints first and i read about their top 3 picks. after i read Finch's report, i decided to check out DJ's report....


here is what i found:


Alfred Fincher - New Orleans Saints

Positives: Great production from MLB position. Good athlete. Tough overachiever. Instinctive. Always around the ball. Very good tackler. Keys and diagnoses quickly and plays downhill. Makes a lot of plays behind the line of scrimmage. Very good playing speed. Has strength to shed. Active motor. Very good quickness and closing speed. Controls blockers. Scrapes off tackle and can cross face of blockers. Sifts through traffic and stays on his feet. Can play man coverage and get depth in zone drops. Ultracompetitive. Plays with a sense of urgency. Vocal leader. Great work habits. Opportunistic and makes things happen.

Negatives: Not explosive. Freelances too much and plays outside the framework of the defense instead of making sure he takes care of his responsibilities.



Derrick Johnson - Kansas City Chiefs

Positives: Terrific athlete. Outstanding production. Great size and growth potential. Has a nose for the ball. Effective blitzer who can get to an edge and knife through the backfield. Outstanding closing speed to the ball. Very fluid hips. Keys and diagnoses and shows good instincts. Can come off spots in coverage and close very quickly. Shows great awareness in coverage. Light on his feet. Explosive hitter. Clears his feet through trash. Moves as well going backward as he does going forward. Makes plays all over the field. Great flexibility. Shows excellent anticipation in coverage and has the athletic ability to run with receivers. Moves very well laterally. Team leader with solid character.

Negatives: Misses too many tackles. Really struggles with and avoids taking on blocks. Ducks out of the way from lead blockers and takes on blocks with his back. Freelances too much and will miss responsibilities trying to do too much. Lacks great playing strength and needs to spend more time in the weightroom. Overruns the ball at times.


sounds like we got a pretty good football player to me


for the rest of the saints draft report, click here:

http://profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL...raftReview.htm

[Edited on 4/30/2005 by pakowitz]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Thanks Pak. I Agree that we may have found the proverbial \"Diamond in the Rough\".

That being said, I have always been a defender of \"Big Conference\" players. The level of competition in the SEC, Big 12, Big Ten and ACC is stiffer. I think few could argue with that.

I have been rethinking that stance lately. We all know the stories of players coming from schools not noted as football powerhouses. Jerry Rice from Mississippi Valley State would have to be the most dramatic example.

I believe many prospects from \"big\" schools were a product of a strong team with big recruiting behind it. They play on complete college teams. Their weaknesses aren\'t exposed because of the talent all around them.

Some players weren\'t as highly touted coming out of high school that were just as talented as your Mr. Football players. Maybe they weren\'t as well coached or as in my case I was surrounded by talent and was good but nothing special (I played at John Curtis). The less heralded can blossom at small schools. That shouldn\'t be held against them.

[Edited on 30/4/2005 by RockyMountainSaint]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Alfred Fincher - New Orleans Saints
Tough overachiever.
Instinctive.
Always around the ball.
Very good tackler.
Makes a lot of plays behind the line of scrimmage.
Very good playing speed.
Very good quickness and closing speed.
Controls blockers.
Scrapes off tackle and can cross face of blockers.
Sifts through traffic and stays on his feet.
Can play man coverage and get depth in zone drops.
Vocal leader.
Great work habits.
Makes things happen.
Negatives:
Not explosive.
Freelances too much (Of course, he played at UCONN)
Plays outside the framework of the defense (Of course, he played at UCONN).

Thats it? Thats all his negatives? Freelancing? He played at UCONN, where I\'d assume he was a man among boys. Of course he\'s gonna freelance, he\'s their best player.



Derrick Johnson - Kansas City Chiefs
Negatives:
Misses too many tackles.
Really struggles with and avoids taking on blocks.
Ducks out of the way from lead blockers and takes on blocks with his back.
Freelances too much
Will miss responsibilities trying to do too much.
Lacks great playing strength
Needs to spend more time in the weightroom.
Overruns the ball at times.


Hmmm, sounds like we did get a good one doesn\'t it Pak?

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

I think DJ will be a playmaker at LB. I\'m just not sure, though. He\'s tall and lanky and doesn\'t appear to be very physical. I think his speed will allow him to chase down plays from sideline to sideline, but I think he will struggle taking on blocks in the NFL.

DJ needs to be on a defense that has big dominant defensive tackles who can shield him from blockers.

I think Fincher won\'t need quiite as much help from the defensive tackles. I think he\'ll be able to shed blockers and clog up the running lanes. I can\'t see DJ doing that.

But, it remains to be seen how BOTH handle the NFL game.



[Edited on 30/4/2005 by GumboBC]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

I agree AF sounds pretty good and i never was high on DJ.
Could you imagine if AF was on the Texas team.
I dont think DJ will be much against the run, and i think AF will. And thats what we needed a run stuffing LB
Love some of the stuff he said, like he\'s coming to NO with a mission, and he\'s going to come in and take the D over like it was his. I think that\'s the kind of attitude M Mickinzie came in here with and you see the differance he made.
That kinda attitude could rub off on the other\'s.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

i was thinking the same thing danno, i was like, thats it? thats all the negative things they have to say about him.... thats what made me go check DJ out. i wanted to see what they had to say on him..... i couldnt believe the difference....

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

There are some noteable differences in the positives though; you\'ll notice that DJ seems to come with a \"has a high upside\" like review and that AF seems to come with \"is good, but upside isn\'t really mentioned\" like review.

Comments that make DJ stand out over fincher include these: Light on his feet, Explosive hitter, Great flexibility, Very fluid hips.

Sometimes it is what it doesn\'t say that matters more than what it does say.

That said, we got a damn fine player in Fincher. I am very excited about him. I just thought I\'d point out the main difference between the two is this: how much better can they be than they already are.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Let\'s take a look at Courtney Watson\'s draft profile:

What his \"profile\" suggests to me is that Waton isn\'t a \"physical\" MLB. And his play on the field suggest that too.

Here\'s one more thing from the same profile:

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Here are some things I saw, maybe we disagree on what they mean:
1. Will step up and take on the offensive guard or lead back with force to stack the inside run,
2. Uses his hands well to play off blocks,
3. Hard hitter who is better as a drag-down tackler than one who wraps,
4. Easily moves through trash and traffic to get outside.

The best reason to move him to WLB is this: WLB is the playmaker and stud position of the LBs, and Watson is a stud LB.

Notice in your own quote the reasons to move him to WLB are ASSETS (like quickness and range) and not deficiencies (like lack of toughness or strength).

I guess, from what you have written here Gumbo, I don\'t see anything that indicates he isn\'t physical. Maybe if we contrasted his profile with a LB who is considered physical, we\'d see something missing from Watson\'s?

[Edited on 30/4/2005 by JKool]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Guess who this is a description of, and tell if you think he sounds \"not so tough\":

Source: http://archive.profootballweekly.com...coutingreports

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Link doesn\'t work. But I\'m guessing Ray Lewis?

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

JKool --

I don\'t know who they are speaking of. Ray Lewis? Who knows.

Here\'s the thing about Watson that concerns me (or that I don\'t like)



To me, that suggests that Watson either:

a) uses bad technique when tackling or (b) doesn\'t like to hit and prefers to arm tackle.

Also, I had a full year to watch Watson as a Saint. And based on my personal observation, Watson looks like he\'d rather arm taclke than be physical.

All of these player profiles are nice, and I enjoy reading them. I think they tend to be accurate on their observations more times than not.

I\'ve said from day one that I thought Watson would be better at WLB. Watson has great speed to make plays from sideline to sideline.

Albert Fincher looks to be more physical than Watson. Being physical isn\'t always about how big and tall someone is.

Mike Tyson was much smaller than some of his opponents, but he was a much bigger hitter.

So, while there might not be much difference in the size of Fincher and Watson, there seems to be a MUCH different playing style.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

(1) I take your point on observations Billy. However, I think a kid who is new on the inside, with an inconsistent (and not that great) set of DTs in front of him, may have some trouble adjusting, don\'t you? I\'m not going to sell Watson out yet.

Notice also this:
It is listed as a STRENGTH. I think we may be misunderstanding the scout\'s notion of \"drag-down\"?

(2) The answer was Urlacher. I\'ll see if I can find the link again, and repost it so it will work.

[Edited on 30/4/2005 by JKool]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

JKool --

I hope you don\'t take this the wrong way ... but ... how can you possibly say this:

Watson is a stud linebacker? How did he go from an unproven rookie MLB to a \"stud\" linebacker? Was it our 32 ranked defense that sold you on him? Was it all of the outstanding plays you \"observed\" him making? Was it the player \"profiles\" that convinced you?

What makes you say Watson is a \"stud\" linebacker?

I\'m a bit curious. Maybe I\'m missing something?

[Edited on 30/4/2005 by GumboBC]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Billy, I was just having some fun with you.

My point was this, though I don\'t see that it has much to do with anything: it is my view that WLB is a playmaking position - that is why many of the greatest LBs of all time have played it. Thus, any suggestion that a player should be moved to or is suited to the WLB, that is NOT a knock against him, but rather it is a compliment.

I seem to have more faith in Watson than you, but I certainly don\'t think he is proven LB yet. I do believe that he is the best LB currently on our roster, though.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

anybody think fincher could be a possible Rookie of the Year??? i think he will start and be very productive but miss out on rookie of the year to someone in a bigger market!!!!!

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

I posted a profile of Fincher with this strengh in another post awhile back and this makes me like Fincher in our situation at MLB and Watson at WLB

Now I\'ve never seen the guy play but the more I read I get excited about having a possible real MLB

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

..the more I read and hear about Fincher, the more I want to see this young man on the field...

... thinking of a Watson-Fincher-Colby LB corps, and the possibility of Adrian ... man I am almost getting excited about next season...

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Guess who this is:

Here are some measurables for the same player:

Also thought I would consult ESPN on his Fincher\'s weaknesses. The person above is not him obviously.

IF you have INSIDER, you can read it there: http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/...2=stateChanged

Few more negatives that was listed here. But you can still guess who the first guy is. He sounds pretty good.

[Edited on 1/5/2005 by saintswhodi]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Is the person Orlando Ruff?

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

i dont believe some of the espn negatives b/c watching film on fincher u can surely see his speed, he has awesome closing speed and he is always around the football, while me might not make every tackle, he is in the area around the ball

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Nope. :P

Well, my take on the pro football weekly bio would be that Derrick Johnson coming from a big school program, and being talked about for the last 4 years, they would have more info on him. Fincher just hit the scene this year and thus would not have the full range of observation. Also, Derrick Johnson is playing against the Adrian Peterson\'s and Quentin Griffin\'s and Chris Brown\'s of college football while Fincher obviously isn\'t. Still, I certainly do hope he is something special for us, but there is a reason few knew his name before we drafted him.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Ok, is he bigger than a bread basket?

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Is it Lawrence Taylor?

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Tell us what year. Is it this year?

[Edited on 1/5/2005 by Danno]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

No it\'s not Lawrence Taylor Kool. lol I\'ll narrow down the choices. My point with this guy is his positives are better than Fincher\'s, yet they have yet to translate to the pro game. He didn\'t come from a big time school, although they played some good competition.

And Danno, it\'s not Sed Hodge. :cool:

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Crap, I don\'t remember the year. 2001, 2002 maybe.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

I gotcha, JKool.

I\'ve been critical of Watson. Some might be (and probably are) under the impression that I\'m a Watson hater. I\'m not a Watson \"hater\". In any event, I can\'t control what folks think.

My thing with Courtney Watson has always been about his ability to be physical. He just can\'t seem to hold his ground in the middle. He gets pushed around too much. He looks like he\'d rather run around a block than take it on. Sometimes a MLB needs to blow-up the blocking and I don\'t see that physical \"style\" of play out of Watson.

If Watson were on a defense that had defensive tackles who were dominant, I think his style of play would be fine. He\'s a fast guy who can chase plays down, but he just doesn\'t seem to have the type of mentality a MLB needs to have in order to take on the bigger blockers.

You see teams who \"covet\" big defensive tackles who can shield their linebackers - thus allowing their speedy LBs to make plays. But it\'s hard to find those big defensive tackles and when you don\'t have them, you need a MLB who can get physical at the point of attack.

JKool -- In your opinion ...

1. Do we have the defensive tackles who can keep blockers off of our LBs?

2. Is Courtney Watson the \"type\" of LB who can make enough plays behind our DTs?

I really don\'t have to think hard on those questions. I\'ve yet to see Fincher play, but based on his \"style\" of play in college, and on his \"attitude\", I think he is better suited for MLB in our defense.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Billy,

(1) I\'ve never taken you to be a Watson hater; we\'ve had this discussion too many times.

(2) My earlier point was Watson sounded just as good or better than Fincher in his scouting report. Now, you can say that what you saw was not what was in the scouting reports, that is why you think Watson is the kind of guy who gets pushed around, but then I suggest that there isn\'t too much reason to be excited that Fincher will be any different.

(3) Still, don\'t get me wrong, I hope that Fincher is the stone-headed, beast we need in the middle. Scouting reports are nice, but as we\'ve shown in this thread, they aren\'t all they\'re cracked up to be.

(4) Notice one of the knocks on Watson is that he needs to \"use his natural leverage\" more to take on blockers. That is a learned behavior, so Watson can still learn it. I also pointed to inconsistency along our DL that could have lead to problems for Watson (just as Urlacher had when Washington left). Further, there is a learning curve at MLB, and second year LBs often bloom into super stars after their first year. Thus, I suggest, that there is as much reason to salivate over Watson at MLB as Fincher - and Watson is faster.

(5) I\'m all about putting Watson at WLB. I think he has all the tools to be great there. I just thought you were the one who thought a MLB had to be better than a WLB - I am not of that view at all - and so I was confused when you wanted to put a less athletic guy at MLB.

(6) Yes, our DTs are the kind of guys who can keep OLinemen off our LBs, but that would require a change of scheme. I think if we stick with our current DT game plans, then no they are not capable of keeping guys off our LBs.

(7) You keep wanting to say that Watson is one type of LB and, I suppose, Fincher is another. I don\'t buy that. Sure, Watson wasn\'t as physical as you\'d have liked last year, but it was his rookie season - the type of LB he was was \"rookie\". We\'ll see after a year of NFL conditioning, two training camps, and some growing up, what \"type\" of LB he is - I\'m not going to pidgeon hole him after one rookie campaign.

Whodi,

(1) This guy\'s positives do seem better, but his negatives seem worse. One thing I like about Fincher is this: while no one seems particularly excited about his \"potential\", people seem excited about what he can already do.

(2) Is it Mike Croel\'s little brother? How about Torrance Marshall?

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

I do think MLB is HARDER to play than WLB. Look in all of those \"scouting\" reports on linebackers.

If you notice, you see all kind of remarks on MLB who could shift over and play WLB. You EVER see a comment on a WLB who would be better suited to play MLB? NOPE!!

You never see some scout suggest that a WLB would be better suited to play MLB. Why? Because they don\'t possess the tools that a proto-typical MLB needs.

Note: I\'m sure you can find some player who played WLB in college whom scouts thought would be a better MLB. But, my point still stands ... It\'s usually the other way around.

PS -- I\'m not saying Watson can\'t improve at MLB. But I am suggesting, for his \"style\" of play, that he has much more \"upside\" as a WLB.

And I\'m also suggesting that Fincher has much more \"upside\" at MLB than Courtney Watson.

[Edited on 1/5/2005 by GumboBC]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

To put you out of your agony Kool, it\'s James Allen. I especially liked these points about him: These positives are exactly what we need, but James is, shall we say, less than an average player, or he has been for the most part.

I don\'t know about his negatives being worse. You can eliminate two of them right off as being nit picky. So his two main negatives would have been while Fincher\'s are I don\'t know how that would appear worse than what the profile was on Allen. But like I said, I am excited to see what the kid can do, I am just not expecting much at all, at least this year. I am sure we will hear plenty of \"he just needs another year to get bigger and stronger\" like we heard with Colby and Watson last year.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Whodi, ah ha!

Billy,

(1) False. Urlacher, Brooking, Petersen (a fine list of LBs), and I\'m sure others were moved to MLB after being projected at OLB.
(2) There are at least two possible reasons for this fact you note, presuming it is a fact: (a) Stud MLBs with speed are going to have an even bigger impact at WLB - so instead of wasting them at MLB, we put them where they can make plays, (b) you would never waste a stud WLB at MLB. Neither of these possibilities agree with your thesis that MLB is harder, and I don\'t see as how you can rule them out.

I didn\'t find just one, but rather three. Now, I doubt this claim that more often people suggest moving MLBs to WLB than the converse. AND it is my view it is because MLB is easier to play and no one would waste good talent at the MLB unless the scheme is right that these comments occur, if they do.

On what basis? On the basis of the following alone?
What about everything else it says among Watson\'s strengths - they do not differ significantly from Finchers. But, I suppose, I covered those points earlier.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Jkool you just articulated EXACTLY my feelings about the Watson at MLB bashingI\'m sure there are a slew of great MLB\'s that did a lot worse than Watson did their rookie seasons.
Well put.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

JKool -- Here is a little info on Brian Urlacher. I can see Urlacher at MLB much more so than Courtney Watson. For one, Urlacher is bigger and stronger than Courtney Watson. But, I believe Urlacher\'s \"ideal\" spot is at WLB.

You can draw your own conclusions on the differences between MLB and WLB. I think it takes a \"physical\" guy at MLB when compared to WLB. To me, a WLB best assest is his \"speed\".

Speed, which is needed at MLB, isn\'t as important as being able to take on blockers and sheding blocks. To me, putting Watson at MLB isn\'t making use of his best skill. Which is speed.

Watson seems best when he plays in space and uses his speed to make the tackle. Not in there banging with offensive linemen and fullbacks.


[Edited on 1/5/2005 by GumboBC]

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

Fine points Billy. We\'ve been over this before, and I\'m not sure I see it going anywhere - I have enjoyed our discussions of this in the past, but I really feel no need to rehash it.

Here is something of note to me: It seems that Lovie has made a point I find particularly compelling - what you need at a given position depends on your scheme. Sure, it is almost always going to be true that your MLB needs to be tough and your WLB needs to be fast, but beyond that there isn\'t much to say. Whether your MLB needs to go sideline to sideline depends on the scheme, whether your MLB needs big DTs in front of him depends on the scheme, whether your WLB needs to be tough enough to to crash the weakside on the blitz again and again depends on the scheme, whether the WLB or MLB has mid-zone responsibilities depends on the scheme, and so on.

Thus, your claim that Watson isn\'t suited for the MLB spot depends on the scheme.

Sure, I believe that you can make pretty good inferences from standard schemes to what ours might be. In fact, I\'m starting to suspect that our difference comes from this fact - you want your MLBs to do it all - who doesn\'t? When I coached we put our surest tackler and toughest guy at MLB. However, we played our best all-around backer at WES or WIL (which were our versions of the WLB). Why? Because our MLB was a gap filler and beast, but our WLB and SLB were asked to make plays - not our MLB. Thus, the scheme I am most familiar with did not call for a stud at MLB (it wasn\'t the tougher position at all).

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

i like his work ethic and his comments that he will run stadiums to celebrate being selected. i like that. we may have a real good lb.

DJ vs. Finch - a comparison
 

he\'ll be a real indicator of scouting prowness and front office savviness if he pans out. if they reached for an lesser known commodity from a lighter weight conference while bigger names were still on the board just the opposite happens. rotsa ruck on picking a better 3rd rd lb.